Digdoug - Episode 9

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby auraseer » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:12 am

Lilwik wrote: Since gathering intelligence is the only thing that Predictamancy can do

That's really oversimplifying. Predictamancers appear to be pretty impressive in combat. The one time we've seen one in a real fight, when Delphi fought for Goodminton, she hit every shot and dodged every attack.

Saying Predictamancers can't do anything but gather intelligence, is like saying that Dirtamancers can't do anything but dig.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:38 am

auraseer wrote:The one time we've seen one in a real fight, when Delphi fought for Goodminton, she hit every shot and dodged every attack.
I'm sure that Predictamancers are very good at shooting from a tower, just look at how Marie manage to get Olive, but if the best use you have for a caster is putting her in combat and having her fight, then that's a very poor caster. Warlords are the units who know combat, as the story has mentioned several times, so I'm pretty sure that a warlord archer would be better at shooting from a tower than a Predictamancer, unless you have to make a super tricky shot. Perhaps warlords can shoot faster and choose their targets better. I'm pretty sure that warlords would give a leadership bonus to the other archers, and a Predictamancer certainly can't do that.
Last edited by Lilwik on Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:40 am

GWvsJohn wrote:My theory is that the entirety of Erfworld is already scripted, from the Titan's perspective. This makes sense since, after all, Erfworld is a written story. The Titans know how any player will react to a Prediction and they know whether they will hear a Prediction or not. So hearing a Prefiction doesn't cause the event to happen since its already been decided how everything will play out.

One difficulty with that is that Rob has called himself a Titan, and he didn't plot out every detail of all the books before he started publishing. So if Erfworld is completely scripted, that is actually beyond the ken of the Titans.

It would also depend on the Predictamancers being wrong about most units not having Fate.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:48 am

Lilwik wrote:
auraseer wrote:The one time we've seen one in a real fight, when Delphi fought for Goodminton, she hit every shot and dodged every attack.
I'm sure that Predictamancers are very good at shooting from a tower, just look at how Marie manage to get Olive, but if the best use you have for a caster is putting her in combat and having her fight, then that's a very poor caster. Warlords are the units who know combat, as the story has mentioned several times, so I'm pretty sure that a warlord archer would be better at shooting from a tower than a Predictamancer, unless you have to make a super tricky shot. Perhaps warlords can shoot faster and choose there targets better. I'm pretty sure that warlords would give a leadership bonus to the other archers, and a Predictamancer certainly can't do that.


You are glossing over the fact that Predictamancers can potentially store their juice in the tower for later pouring out upon their foes, while a warlord cannot. With a Predictamancer guided release of a massive spell from a Tower, the Predictamancer could theoretically remove all leadership from the entire air attack. No Archery Warlord could guarantee that. And, the Predictamancer has other benefits besides. Just because a caster is best used in battle (as many casters honestly are) doesn't mean they are no better than a warlord.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:53 am

I'm sure that Rob Balder is not literally a Titan.
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:It would also depend on the Predictamancers being wrong about most units not having Fate.
No, it would just mean that Fate is the bits and pieces of the inevitable future that magic allows Erfworlders to know or control. It wouldn't have to be all Fate even it if were all set in stone. I don't think it is all set in stone; I'm just talking hypothetically.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Lipkin » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:43 am

Except for the fact that Rob literally created all of Erf, messages from him are called Word of the Titans, and he controls everything that happens in the comic. Except for all of that, he's not Titanic in the least.

I don't think he's going to pull a Grant Morrison and write himself in as God, but he's totally a Titan.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby auraseer » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:10 am

Lilwik wrote:I'm sure that Predictamancers are very good at shooting from a tower, just look at how Marie manage to get Olive, but if the best use you have for a caster is putting her in combat and having her fight, then that's a very poor caster.

"Best" is subjective and situational. If your side's victory or defeat depends on one critical battle, then it's likely that putting your casters in that battle is the best use you can make of them. Isn't that why Delphi was forced to fight in that battle to begin with?

Lilwik wrote:I'm pretty sure that a warlord archer would be better at shooting from a tower than a Predictamancer


No matter how good a shot an archery warlord is, he'll be far better if every single shot always hits.

You brought up warlords, but you also brought up Marie. Note that Marie didn't take down Olive; Wanda did. Wanda triggered the tower, and it was Marie who told her exactly when and where to expend their very limited ammo.

The Predictamancer doesn't have to be the one firing. Just having them in the stack will add a tremendous advantage in combat-- just as would a Foolamancer, or a Dittomancer, or whatever other kind of caster you care to name.

Certainly some will be better in combat than others, at various times, but that will be highly situational. My point remains: intelligence isn't the only thing a Predictamancer can do.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby memnarch » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:17 am

Godzfirefly wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
auraseer wrote:The one time we've seen one in a real fight, when Delphi fought for Goodminton, she hit every shot and dodged every attack.
I'm sure that Predictamancers are very good at shooting from a tower, just look at how Marie manage to get Olive, but if the best use you have for a caster is putting her in combat and having her fight, then that's a very poor caster. Warlords are the units who know combat, as the story has mentioned several times, so I'm pretty sure that a warlord archer would be better at shooting from a tower than a Predictamancer, unless you have to make a super tricky shot. Perhaps warlords can shoot faster and choose there targets better. I'm pretty sure that warlords would give a leadership bonus to the other archers, and a Predictamancer certainly can't do that.


You are glossing over the fact that Predictamancers can potentially store their juice in the tower for later pouring out upon their foes, while a warlord cannot. With a Predictamancer guided release of a massive spell from a Tower, the Predictamancer could theoretically remove all leadership from the entire air attack. No Archery Warlord could guarantee that. And, the Predictamancer has other benefits besides. Just because a caster is best used in battle (as many casters honestly are) doesn't mean they are no better than a warlord.


Yep, pretty much. Some notes about predictamancy in combat:

Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 020 wrote:Wanda watched her work, but it was a blur. Somewhere in those notes in her satchel, there was a brief explanation of how Predictamancy worked in combat. It amounted to the caster using her juice to see things happen a second or two ahead, so that she could aim where the enemy would be, and to move where the enemy's return blows and arrows would not land.

Most importantly to this plan, a Predictamancer could know whether or not a shot or blow she was about to initiate would be a hit. If it wouldn't, then she simply did not take the shot.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby No one in particular » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:43 am

Casters in Combat:
    Golems get bonuses from Dirt- & Dollamancers.
    Croakamancers HAVE to be on the scene to have bodies to work with, and once raised can lead dance-fights.
    Shockamancers can load up towers or scrolls, but would probably be even more devastating in person.
    Foolamancers have to be IN a stack to veil it.
    Florists can stop any fighting from even happening.
    Dittomancers can double specials, units & projectiles.
    Healomancers... again, work best on the scene. If a unit can survive a trip back to a city, they probably don't really need a healomancer.
    Predictamancers don't make you stronger, but they make it so you don't miss and don't get hit.
A lot of Casters COULD be really useful in combat... they're just expensive, valuable and don't pop nearly as often as Warlords. Most Rulers hoard Casters rather than field them and risk losing them. (there's also how their bonuses don't apply universally like Warlords' do)

Really, that's one reason why Rusty was so shunned at Faq. He was a COMBAT Caster, unlike the Mathamancer, Lookamancer, Signamancer, Predictamancer, Healomancer or Moneymancer.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby wih » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:26 am

No one in particular wrote:Croakamancers HAVE to be on the scene to have bodies to work with, and once raised can lead dance-fights.


Only Masters, that we know.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:28 am

No one in particular wrote:Florists can stop any fighting from even happening.
They can also create plant monsters, and my guess would be that the plant monsters get a bonus when lead by a Florist.

No one in particular wrote:Healomancers... again, work best on the scene. If a unit can survive a trip back to a city, they probably don't really need a healomancer.
We don't have great detail on the incapacitation rules, but it seems that if you are going to die from your incapacitation you won't actually die until the end of the turn, which means that the Healomancer can wait until after the battle and then heal everyone. Time isn't an issue, as long as there is enough move available, so it would be a bit reckless to have the Healomancer in the actual combat if there's any choice about it. I'm basing my understanding of incapacitation on B2T39.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:01 am

Regarding Delphie's quote about Fate, she's a known liar who would have said anything to get Wanda to turn to Haffaton. I think we need to take anything she says with a grain of salt. However, even if we assume she was right, it still doesn't hurt my theory.

Think of my theory about the Titans, Fate and Prediction like Macbeth. Macbeth is Fated to be king. That's going to happen, no matter what. If he never hears the Prediction from the witches, maybe Duncan and his sons are killed in a plague, or a fire, or a battle. However long it took, Macbeth would have eventually been king. But Macbeth did hear the Prediciton, and that changes things. Macbeth could have chosen to ignore it, in which case the former scenario would have still happened and Macbeth would have been surprised when the Prediction came true, like he was about the Prediction about becoming Thane of Cadwor. But Macbeth chose to act on the Prediction setting into motion the tragic events we all know so well. At each point, Macbeth can choose to act in whatever way he likes, but the Titans (Shakespeare) know how he WILL react and thus the story is written. No matter how many times you read Macbeth, he always stabs the king. In this example, Lady Macbeth is like Delphie and all the other Fateless ones. If Macbeth had ignored the Prediciton, Lady Macbeth lives and becomes Queen. But when he acts, she colludes with him and ends up committing suicide. Again she has many possible paths, but hers are affected by Macbeth, heavy with Fate. And again, even though there are multiple paths, the story always plays out the same.

Lipkin wrote:Except for the fact that Rob literally created all of Erf, messages from him are called Word of the Titans, and he controls everything that happens in the comic. Except for all of that, he's not Titanic in the least.

I don't think he's going to pull a Grant Morrison and write himself in as God, but he's totally a Titan.


I doubt Rob thinks of himself as a pompadoured giant in a white jumpsuit :) I think Rob is more like Eru Iluvatar. His music crafts Erfworld, but for the actual, in-game events, he allows his servants, the Titans (Valar) to act in his stead.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Omnimancer » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:15 am

No one in particular wrote:Casters in Combat:
    Golems get bonuses from Dirt- & Dollamancers.
    Croakamancers HAVE to be on the scene to have bodies to work with, and once raised can lead dance-fights.
    Shockamancers can load up towers or scrolls, but would probably be even more devastating in person.
    Foolamancers have to be IN a stack to veil it.
    Florists can stop any fighting from even happening.
    Dittomancers can double specials, units & projectiles.
    Healomancers... again, work best on the scene. If a unit can survive a trip back to a city, they probably don't really need a healomancer.
    Predictamancers don't make you stronger, but they make it so you don't miss and don't get hit.
A lot of Casters COULD be really useful in combat... they're just expensive, valuable and don't pop nearly as often as Warlords. Most Rulers hoard Casters rather than field them and risk losing them. (there's also how their bonuses don't apply universally like Warlords' do)

Really, that's one reason why Rusty was so shunned at Faq. He was a COMBAT Caster, unlike the Mathamancer, Lookamancer, Signamancer, Predictamancer, Healomancer or Moneymancer.


I think it's likely that every caster can do some unique trick in combat, even the more peaceful seeming disciplines. I'd be curious to see how a Moneymancer or Signamancer handles themselves in a fight. And of course, every caster is capable of performing basic shockamancy attacks too, and using scrolls with combat spells, even if it isn't their speciality.

The difference is that many casters have a lot of uses outside combat, so you don't want to risk them in a fight unless you absolutely have to, or if the fight is overwhelmingly in your favor. Warlords on the other hand mostly exist to lead units into battle (other than secondary uses like managing cities), so it's wasteful not to use them.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Grand Diplomat » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:18 am

Wow I guess I'm not the only one that has read a good chunk of the Silmarillion.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:23 am

Grand Diplomat wrote:Wow I guess I'm not the only one that has read a good chunk of the Silmarillion.


While I have read the Silmarillion many times, Iluvatar is on the first page, so you need to read anywhere near a "good chunk" to get the reference :)
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Grand Diplomat » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:30 pm

:D
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby bladestorm » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:03 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:In Stupidworld predictions aren't the cause of the things they predict, so we should keep our minds open to the possibility that maybe they aren't the cause in Erfworld either.


That...is a really weird statement, since most predictions in Stupidworld don't come true at all. And, those that claim to have (like Old Testiment prophecies of New Testiment events) are often caused by the predictions, in a sense (or at least caused by the source of the predictions, which is very similar.)

And, the source of my theory (which I'm open minded enough to accept as just a hypothesis rather than a true theory) is Quantum Mechanics. In that very real Stupidworld aspect of reality, the observation of the Quantum Particle does cause the particle to exist in a particular state where previously it was multiple states. So, in a very real sense, observation of the undecided does make the undecided into a reality in Stupidworld.

As for why Marie would let Banhammer do that, I can think of two good reasons. 1) He's her leader and she does what he says, even if he knows not what he asks. Banhammer may be a leader that takes advantage of his casters best, but that doesn't mean he talks with them about what makes their magic work. 2) There are aspects of Predictamancy that Predictamancers don't talk about with anyone outside their discipline. We know this because Delphie said so. Marie may not be willing to violate that trust for the sake of a warlord that no one at court likes. Much like no Thinkamancer talks about Charlie's ability to intercept Thinkagrams, even though it does threaten their Sides. If everyone knew Predictamancers essentially caused their predictions, and they really can't control what they cause, it would be a major problem for Predictamancers as a group. They'd be worse than Carnymancers, then.

Third reason: She predicted he would ask such a detrimental question, and that by trying to prevent that question from being asked, she would only make things much worse. Reminiscent of the Oracle scene from the Matrix when Neo breaks the plate (or whatever it was); would he still have broken it if she didn't say something about it first...
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby bladestorm » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:13 pm

auraseer wrote:
Lilwik wrote: Since gathering intelligence is the only thing that Predictamancy can do

That's really oversimplifying. Predictamancers appear to be pretty impressive in combat. The one time we've seen one in a real fight, when Delphi fought for Goodminton, she hit every shot and dodged every attack.

Saying Predictamancers can't do anything but gather intelligence, is like saying that Dirtamancers can't do anything but dig.

or saying Dirtamancers aren't good for anything other than working in the cesspit making crap golems....which is pretty much how Stanley was using Sizemore. We've come to find out that Dirtamancers can do a lot more than that, but was just being utilized improperly. From a gaming perspective, it would not be unusual to have a player maintain a unit for the sole reason of a passive bonus that it grants without actually utilizing that unit.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby Grand Diplomat » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:20 pm

It seems we are now discussing whether keeping predictamancers because of their passive bonuses is a good thing. I personally would keep predictamancers around just because there pretty useful for answering questions in a round about fashion.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 9

Postby bladestorm » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:53 pm

Grand Diplomat wrote:It seems we are now discussing whether keeping predictamancers because of their passive bonuses is a good thing. I personally would keep predictamancers around just because there pretty useful for answering questions in a round about fashion.

Plenty of casters have passive bonuses. Dirtamancers have a passive to construction times and city defenses. Florists are assumed to have a passive to buff farm production. Moneymancers buff monetary transfers and presumably smucker rates. Turnamancers buff production rates. It's not a matter of what one person would personally do, it was a statement that there are plenty of gamers in the world more concerned with what bonus an unnamed unit can provide rather than how could Sizemore be most effectively utilized given his personality and capabilities. With the general theme of casters being misused by their Rulers, it is no small wonder so many of them prefer to stay in the MK discussing magick theory.

It's much like the discussion on the card rules, and who would use what rule for which effect. Everyone had their own take on it, while a few were in agreement about the general concept. And as far as trending what we are currently discussing, "Occam's nazi razor cutting string theories in Ayn Rand's logical golden tinfoil sweater" sums it up pretty well.
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