Digdoug - Episode 10

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:24 pm

At least there's a little variation in this, in that both Stanley and Banhammer were single, now with Homekey I'm getting the very strong impression there was at least some very romantic tension between Bucky and Posbrake if not a full-on domestic partnership (well as much partnership as it's possible when one of them is the Ruler) so this time there's a (pottentially) scorned woman in the mix, one who knows all of Posbrake's secrets.

The reason I'm getting these vibes from Posbrake and Bucky is due to Digdoug commenting on how giving such authorithy and responsibility (even inventing a title) to a courtier is unheard of but then I might be reading to much into it.

I find it funny that noble blood and heritage is such a big theme in the comics and that rulers/nobles allways end up falling for other important units wether other royals (who thus must come from a different side) , Jillian/Ansom Don/Bea, or at least CW, casters and courtiers but there seems to be no mecanism for having both a King and a Queen.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby multilis » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:53 pm

A beginner carnymancer can magically manipulate one unit stat.

Theory: this one manipulates kings resistance to seduction/etc. stat. She then starts with card game, made sure king got the king of hearts one and gave him lots of cleavage.

Banhammer may also have been victim of magic rather than entirely just charm... if a master class mage has the power and the stakes are high, why wouldn't she boost her seduction stat, spend a little juice?

Both cases may point to power of magic rather than just weakness of male rulers for feminine flattery. Yes flattery/charm is there but magic is force multiplier.

Prophesy... some side was going to attack by air. Suppose that hasn't changed. Suppose Charlie was hired by that side to attack. Now Charlie is also double paid by this side. The 2 obvious sides that might of originally hired Charlie are the enemy side and the parent side. Either way if Charlie backs off, the original side may still press their planned attack. Charlie gets paid for weakening by original attacker then leaving it open for them to take over.

Charlie may not want any side to win, Posbrake is a good (gullible) customer and getting everyone to keep paying him (double) in a stalemate is good business. At same time he gets intel from his pet mage that he can sell or use later, including full view of one sides books and also all she learns about neighbours.

...

This whole business does feel like a big scam, with start of Charlie getting free credit with his Carny pet by getting her the original job so she owed him the intel and the make sure we hire Charlie for free (Posbrake pays for it). For Charlie to get Carny in right place at exact right time suggests he also may have hired predictomancer and/or thinkomancer. (Predictomancer to predict or thinkomancer to assist in manipulating dirtomancer's movements subtly)
Last edited by multilis on Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lamech » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:06 pm

(name here) wrote:Charlie is obviously up to something. He's breathing.

That said, there's a reason he keeps getting hired. He's not going to do anything as flagrant as outright conquering the city. I don't think he's ever broken an actual contract.

He would never conquer a city without getting paid for it, or something really really cool. Infinite power in a complete school of magic cool. Nor do I think Posbrake could be so stupid as to have a contract that let's Charlie use the false attack as cover for a real attack. Furthermore as shown (well implied by him) in book 1 he won't play both sides. This presumably means he is NOT under contract with any of Posbrake's enemies.

However, the second his contract obligations end, I'm positive he will be advertising again. Hell he probably even has a clause that lists his future obligations to Homekey after this false attack, and I very much doubt Charlie agreed to never work against them. Also funny story, he'll probably be conveniently placed to attack Homekey.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:28 pm

multilis wrote:Charlie may not want any side to win, Posbrake is a good (gullible) customer and getting everyone to keep paying him (double) in a stalemate is good business.
Is Posbrake really gullible? I wish I knew, but I have serious doubts. We've seen so many foolish rulers, like becoming a ruler turns brains to mush. Banhammer, Stanley, Slately, Scrofula. With Posbrake for once we found a ruler who was ignoring common wisdom, playing wide and winning, seeing the value in Predictamancers when everyone says they are bad luck, and Carnymancers too. Surely all disciplines must have value, and Posbrake knows that. He has the respect of his side. It really looked like Posbrake was a clever guy, but now he seems to be falling into a trap, so I don't know what is really going on.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Jamus » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:59 pm

Epileptic tree time:

Sizemore is in desperate need of backstory. I don't recall, did we ever SEE Doug illustrated?

Doug appears to be highly talented- like Sizemore, except being leveraged correctly. He also has the scent of a pacifist to me, similar to Sizemore. He also doesn't really have an identity inside the magic kingdom. It may be that that's a hint, that he'll have a new name and nobody in the magic kingdom will question it.

My expectation is that this is going to go sideways, for all parties. Charlie is not expecting that they have real air defences. Doug is going to give them surprisingly good air defences, and Charlie is going to lose archons, probably breaking his contract and infuriating him.

Charlie turns on a dime to recoup his losses here in any way he can, which in this case is taking home key and razing it. Titans know how pissed every party will be at Doug, and if Charlie is pissed enough, we might see another mind wipe like Jillian. Or worse, we may find that Sizemore has been compromised by Charlie for his entire gk career. THAT would be a stellar lead in to book three.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby multilis » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:11 pm

Lilwik wrote:
multilis wrote:Charlie may not want any side to win, Posbrake is a good (gullible) customer and getting everyone to keep paying him (double) in a stalemate is good business.
Is Posbrake really gullible? I wish I knew, but I have serious doubts. We've seen so many foolish rulers, like becoming a ruler turns brains to mush. Banhammer, Stanley, Slately, Scrofula. With Posbrake for once we found a ruler who was ignoring common wisdom, playing wide and winning, seeing the value in Predictamancers when everyone says they are bad luck, and Carnymancers too. Surely all disciplines must have value, and Posbrake knows that. He has the respect of his side. It really looked like Posbrake was a clever guy, but now he seems to be falling into a trap, so I don't know what is really going on.

"when everyone says they are bad luck, and Carnymancers too" unclear if wisdom or not, especially with carny. Sometimes a common myth has a real foundation, people believe they are bad luck or don't hire because most sides that did ended up failing.

My guess is most normal rulers are good at some things and bad at some things. Eg Wanda's dad was master diplomat.

In this case a willingness to think outside box is both blessing and curse, sometimes folklore is silly, and sometimes there is a good reason for it even if no one has bothered to scientifically figure out why. Posbrake lacks Parson's gaming things so many times that he watches the limitations/risks of thinking outside of the box. Posbrake so far is not suspicious enough.

IMO is a mistake to accept plan to "wipe out own side" to fulfill prophesy, without an extra level of clever. Eg if Posbrake knows which side originally planned to wipe him out and this is clever counter plan knowing he has spy in his own side, then this would be a good play. Or if this is some trick to get rid of yoke of his parent side. (Charlie may wipe out the allied units but not his)

Otherwise it is dumb... the original side that wanted to wipe him out may still be out there and he is weakening his own defenses.

So far conventional wisdom score on predict/carny: he may have saved his dirtomancer, he provokes parent side, he lost chief warlord. For all we know the original predictomancer could have been a setup, and dirtomancer would not have died, only reason city fell was because he was pulled out.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:32 pm

Jamus wrote:Charlie is not expecting that they have real air defences. Doug is going to give them surprisingly good air defences, and Charlie is going to lose archons, probably breaking his contract and infuriating him.
It's going to be a real battle, not a fake battle, and I'm sure that was part of the deal. Charlie needs to take losses or else there will be no way to justify withdrawing. I'm sure that it is all expected and included in the fee. The only way that increased air defenses could be a problem would be if someone is planning to try to actually capture Homekey from the air. It seems inevitable that someone will try that, both from the Prediction and from what I guess is foreshadowing in the story.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:03 pm

asparagus wrote:What clues do we have about timing? Since Charlie is involved we know it is after he left Haffaton. It could conceivably be after the fall of Spacerock though that seems unlikely. Anything else?

If the assumption that Dove is the female Carny in the Magic Kingdom in Book 3, then this can't be happening concurrently with the Battle of Spacerock. Also, if the main comic is the present, I doubt this is the future. Beyond that, we have no idea.

Prodigial_Knight wrote:At least there's a little variation in this, in that both Stanley and Banhammer were single, now with Homekey I'm getting the very strong impression there was at least some very romantic tension between Bucky and Posbrake if not a full-on domestic partnership (well as much partnership as it's possible when one of them is the Ruler) so this time there's a (pottentially) scorned woman in the mix, one who knows all of Posbrake's secrets.

The reason I'm getting these vibes from Posbrake and Bucky is due to Digdoug commenting on how giving such authorithy and responsibility (even inventing a title) to a courtier is unheard of but then I might be reading to much into it.

I find it funny that noble blood and heritage is such a big theme in the comics and that rulers/nobles allways end up falling for other important units wether other royals (who thus must come from a different side) , Jillian/Ansom Don/Bea, or at least CW, casters and courtiers but there seems to be no mecanism for having both a King and a Queen.

The vibe I got from the most recent update is more that Bucky has unrequited feelings for her liege. Now, it may not be love, per se. It may just be a great admiration and respect, but she seems clearly jealous of the entertainment Posbrake and Dove are sharing.

There is no need for long-term relationships in Erfworld. While the units are essentially human, and share human desires for intimacy, they don't have children. Units are popped as adults. There is no reason for two people to cooperate and commit to each other for a dozen or more years to ensure the survival and education of an offspring. So, there is no advantage, I can see, to institution that binds the two. For that reason, I can't really see there being a king and queen in Erfworld.

Jamus wrote:Epileptic tree time:

Sizemore is in desperate need of backstory. I don't recall, did we ever SEE Doug illustrated?

Doug appears to be highly talented- like Sizemore, except being leveraged correctly. He also has the scent of a pacifist to me, similar to Sizemore. He also doesn't really have an identity inside the magic kingdom. It may be that that's a hint, that he'll have a new name and nobody in the magic kingdom will question it.

My expectation is that this is going to go sideways, for all parties. Charlie is not expecting that they have real air defences. Doug is going to give them surprisingly good air defences, and Charlie is going to lose archons, probably breaking his contract and infuriating him.

Charlie turns on a dime to recoup his losses here in any way he can, which in this case is taking home key and razing it. Titans know how pissed every party will be at Doug, and if Charlie is pissed enough, we might see another mind wipe like Jillian. Or worse, we may find that Sizemore has been compromised by Charlie for his entire gk career. THAT would be a stellar lead in to book three.

Except that Sizemore told Parson that he popped a Gobwin Knob unit during the reign of King Saline IV, Stanley's predecessor. Also, this is a donor story. Doug Molla, I don't know if he posts on the forums or his username if he does, donated to the Year of the Dwagon Kickstarter to get a who are you in Erfworld story. He also donated at that level for the Erfworld Battle Crest Lapel Pins Kickstarter. So, maybe we'll get another story with Digdoug in the future. Maybe the second story will be a different character. Maybe this story will just be super long, combining both Kickstarter rewards. I have no idea. That's between Rob and Doug. The reason we haven't seen a picture of Digdoug yet is because each reward comes with one picture from Xin. That picture will probably be included in the last update of the story. While I cannot say with one-hundred percent certainty that Digdoug won't end up being Sizemore, I highly doubt it given the circumstances.

Also, we've seen that Charlie never breaks his contracts. He'll certainly try to get everything he can from Homekey, but I can't see him getting pissed and sacking the city out of spite.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby name lips » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:46 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:
asparagus wrote:Also, we've seen that Charlie never breaks his contracts. He'll certainly try to get everything he can from Homekey, but I can't see him getting pissed and sacking the city out of spite.

Charlie might break contracts and not leave witnesses. What's important is his reputation of trustworthiness.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lamech » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:53 am

name lips wrote:
Mrtyuh wrote:
asparagus wrote:Also, we've seen that Charlie never breaks his contracts. He'll certainly try to get everything he can from Homekey, but I can't see him getting pissed and sacking the city out of spite.

Charlie might break contracts and not leave witnesses. What's important is his reputation of trustworthiness.

Too risky in all honesty unless its really major. Predictamancy, lookamancy, possibly findamancy, and who knows what else might blow it. Not to mention links. It takes one major breach of trust to end Charlie's business model.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Omnimancer » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

What I find interesting, and worrisome for Homekey, is how all this predictamancy and carnymancy business is distracting from their actual enemy Numloch.

The prediction may have saved Digdoug's life, but it also seems quite possible that if he had stayed the city would have been strong enough to repel an invasion without serious casualties.

They lost Windoski and their chief warlord because Digdoug hasn't been doing his usual job of shoring up cities. Perhaps Posbrake just wants his caster nearby in case he needs to send him back to the Magic Kingdom, or ask him questions about Dove.

And now they're hiring Charlie to attack themselves. Even if it works without a hitch, that's still spending money they could have used elsewhere. Popping more units. Or perhaps hiring Charlie to attack Numloch. Even if a ruse is cheaper than an actual battle, I'm sure Charlie doesn't work cheaply.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:24 pm

I would bet at almost any odds you care to name that DigDoug is not Sizemore.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby asparagus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:28 pm

drachefly wrote:I would bet at almost any odds you care to name that DigDoug is not Sizemore.



Both DigDoug and Sizemore have a down-to-earth and trodden upon air about them. Perhaps this is common to all dirtamancers. Sizemore said: "When life gives you crap go and make crap golems."

P.S. It would be interesting to see a really evil or flashy dirtamancer:
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Jorgath » Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:30 pm

If I didn't know Charlie was a Carny, I'd trust the situation a lot more. Not completely - Peck's got a point - but a lot more. But we already know that Charlie has a LOT of influence in Carny circles, so this smells of a set-up.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby asparagus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:01 pm

Jorgath wrote:If I didn't know Charlie was a Carny, I'd trust the situation a lot more. Not completely - Peck's got a point - but a lot more. But we already know that Charlie has a LOT of influence in Carny circles, so this smells of a set-up.


Erfworld really is very different from our world. We spend at least 15-20 years trying to work out who we are and what we should or want to do with our lives. There is no guiding force that decides our fate (though many people believe otherwise). In Erfworld you pretty much know what your role is from the moment you are popped with your skills all in place. Your Fate may have been already assigned tou you (although some on the forum seem to doubt that).

Imagine in our world the Stork theory was true and you could tell what profession the baby was by the bracelet around its ankle. So your parents knew from the start that your elder sister would be a banker, your younger brother a policeman and you a thief. What effect would that have on your childhood games - just trying to meet Erfworld halfway here.

(I'm also riffing on the thought that Carneymancer's might suffer from prejudice and you don't get to choose your caster class.)
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:41 pm

asparagus wrote:Your Fate may have been already assigned to you (although some on the forum seem to doubt that).
I bet if you pick a random Erfworlder you will find a unit who was popped to defend a city, stands guard in that city for several turns or several dozen turns, and then either croaks defending that city, or else is sent out as part of an army and croaks attacking an enemy city. The guiding force that assigns this fate to those units is called the chief warlord.

As for more mysterious guiding forces, there's about as much as much reason to think there's one in Erfworld as there is to think there's one in Stupidworld. Unlike the Titans that we've actually seen, the guiding force of Fate is still invisible so it's up to each of us to decide what we think it is, a bit like that smoke monster in Lost. I personally think there is still plenty of philosophical room for a natural explanation, but we'll never really know unless the story chooses to tell us. Lucky for us, the Digdoug story still has the potential to contain a major revelation in that area since it is tied up with Fate.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby asparagus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:58 pm

Lilwik wrote:I personally think there is still plenty of philosophical room for a natural explanation, but we'll never really know unless the story chooses to tell us.


What do you mean by "natural" in an Erfworld context?

Oh and bare in mind the word "natural" is used in Erfworld in "natural thinkamancy" and "natural dollamancy". Units are divided into casters who do "magic" and other units who do "natural stuff".
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:24 pm

asparagus wrote:What do you mean by "natural" in an Erfworld context?
By natural I mean a thoughtless process, a mere mechanism that runs like clockwork, as opposed to someone's deliberate actions. A natural Fate is an unguided Fate that just lands where it falls. It has nothing to do with whether magic is involved, since in Erfworld there is plenty of magic that's merely the natural order of the world. The reason that caster magic is distinct from natural magic is that caster magic is a deliberate action guided by the caster while natural magic is just a mindless force, even if it does obey commands.

Specifically, I suspect that the Fate that Predictamancers see is nothing more than a preview of the future and it is not a peek at the next page of a script that some higher power wrote. All I can see in Erfworld is people making their own decisions, so until I see otherwise I'm always going to suspect that Erfworlders make their own Fate.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby asparagus » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:37 pm

Lilwik wrote:
asparagus wrote:What do you mean by "natural" in an Erfworld context?
By natural I mean a thoughtless process, a mere mechanism that runs like clockwork, as opposed to someone's deliberate actions.


I referred back to the first Inner Peace http://www.erfworld.com/2011/10/inner-p ... isode-001/ expecting to quote chapter and verse at you. But rereading that maybe you have a point. Perhaps the Titans are just very powerful beings in Erfworld but themselves subject to the same impersonal "natural" forces. It's a bit like Plato's view of the Gods being below the creator in the Timaeus.

I still think you are wrong however about the phenomena described as "natural". There always seems to be a mind involved - just not one belonging to a caster. I suspect that the difference is more that a caster is like a software programmer whereas non-casters are like software users. And some software was written by the Titans at the beginning of time not by casters.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:26 pm

asparagus wrote:I still think you are wrong however about the phenomena described as "natural". There always seems to be a mind involved - just not one belonging to a caster. I suspect that the difference is more that a caster is like a software programmer whereas non-casters are like software users.
Natural always stops at exactly the point where intentional action begins. Even a computer runs by natural mechanisms. It wasn't built by nature and its commands don't come from nature, but it is nature that obeys those commands and makes the machine work. When a ruler orders a city built, it wasn't nature that decided there should be a city, but it's nature that actually builds the city (unless there's a Dirtamancer). When a Twoll weaves a basket, the act of weaving is the Twoll's work, but the thing that keeps the basket together is nature, so the Twoll isn't free to weave a basket in every shape he might choose. He uses his knowledge of natural Dollamancy to choose how he weaves the basket; otherwise, the basket would fall apart.
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