Digdoug - Episode 10

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:09 pm

Ok for one...they're called CAPITAL sides for a reason. You can't very well be a Capital Side without having half the equation. Without a Capital, you have no Treasury. Without a Treasury, units don't have a source of Upkeep, so they auto-disband. Cities go neutral and the poor schmucks in the field go poof. One can assume Stanley's entire force was a single stack anyway because of the Artifact Bonus making it worth it to lead all those Dwagons, so he prolly kept everyone he had with him at the time.

As for FAQ being in the Library, Keighvin1 is drawing an artificial line. Crush clearly states that by nature of the fact that all these peaceful sides have books Published, they have fallen. Trying to exclude FAQ from "those sides" merely because it's not in the same sentence is a non sequitur. So what we learn tangentally is that even deliberate Publishing won't push a book to the "cloud" until the side has fallen.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Godzfirefly » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:13 pm

0beron wrote:Ok for one...they're called CAPITAL sides for a reason. You can't very well be a Capital Side without having half the equation. Without a Capital, you have no Treasury. Without a Treasury, units don't have a source of Upkeep, so they auto-disband. Cities go neutral and the poor schmucks in the field go poof. One can assume Stanley's entire force was a single stack anyway because of the Artifact Bonus making it worth it to lead all those Dwagons, so he prolly kept everyone he had with him at the time.


Faq certainly didn't have their units auto-disband without their capital...They conquered Haffaton's capital instead.

Unless you're suggesting there is a delay between losing the capital and disbanding field units?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:29 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Actually, we don't know if Faq's book was published because of Haffaton's conquering them (which didn't end the side) or because of Stanley conquering Faq (which did end the side.)
Why should Stanley conquering Faq end the side? Faq still had a ruler; it just changed from Banhammer to Jillian. On the other hand, I have to agree with Keighvin1 that there's a possibility that Faq wasn't actually published. It does seem odd that Faq would be published while Jillian is still around.

Godzfirefly wrote:
Lilwik wrote:We also know that Stanley became a barbarian and all field units outside of his stack disbanded.

We know this...how? Sizemore didn't say that, he just says that they retook the city. My impression was that he still kept the side in existence by being the heir.
Because the exact same thing happened to Wanda in B0E26 and we saw how it worked for her. Losing the capital may not end the side, but it clearly does cause field units to disband. Neutralizing cities is still open to speculation.

Godzfirefly wrote:Faq certainly didn't have their units auto-disband without their capital...They conquered Haffaton's capital instead.
Faq conquered Efbaum which wasn't Haffaton's capital. It just happened to be a capital city that Haffaton had captured. Faq captured that city using only Jillian and the units that were in Banhammer's stack. The field units that are stacked with the ruler are the only known exception to the auto-disbanding rule.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:22 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Faq certainly didn't have their units auto-disband without their capital...They conquered Haffaton's capital instead.
Their units were all in a single stack with the Ruler, with a dozen Commanders able to support them with full Purses and a respectable supply of Gems thanks to Mothfoot.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lipkin » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:22 pm

It strikes me that we don't actually know if there is an upper limit to stacks. We know the bonus tops out at 8, but if an entire side could stack with a ruler/heir, it would mean functionally infinite screeners for the leadership, protection for the entire side should the ruler fall, and a force large enough to take almost any capitol city they want. They wouldn't be able to keep the force together for long, because there is an upper limit to purse size, but it may be something that could lend itself to some trickery.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:55 pm

Lipkin wrote:It strikes me that we don't actually know if there is an upper limit to stacks. We know the bonus tops out at 8, but if an entire side could stack with a ruler/heir, it would mean functionally infinite screeners for the leadership, protection for the entire side should the ruler fall, and a force large enough to take almost any capitol city they want. They wouldn't be able to keep the force together for long, because there is an upper limit to purse size, but it may be something that could lend itself to some trickery.


We kinda do know there is a limit. Both Stanley and Tarfu mention "max stacks." Stanley limits how many knights he can bring with him when he flees. Since it seems most if not all Dwagons can be mounted , the only reason to limit that would be a max stack or Stanley doing some Mathamancy to figure how many units he can support of his trip to FAQ. The former seems far more likely
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lipkin » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:41 am

GWvsJohn wrote:
Lipkin wrote:It strikes me that we don't actually know if there is an upper limit to stacks. We know the bonus tops out at 8, but if an entire side could stack with a ruler/heir, it would mean functionally infinite screeners for the leadership, protection for the entire side should the ruler fall, and a force large enough to take almost any capitol city they want. They wouldn't be able to keep the force together for long, because there is an upper limit to purse size, but it may be something that could lend itself to some trickery.


We kinda do know there is a limit. Both Stanley and Tarfu mention "max stacks." Stanley limits how many knights he can bring with him when he flees. Since it seems most if not all Dwagons can be mounted , the only reason to limit that would be a max stack or Stanley doing some Mathamancy to figure how many units he can support of his trip to FAQ. The former seems far more likely

Except that Stanley was planning on starting a new side with those knights, so he was limited by how many he could support on his purse/the income of one low level city. Don't know about Tarfu though.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Omnimancer » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:33 am

0beron wrote:Ok for one...they're called CAPITAL sides for a reason. You can't very well be a Capital Side without having half the equation. Without a Capital, you have no Treasury. Without a Treasury, units don't have a source of Upkeep, so they auto-disband. Cities go neutral and the poor schmucks in the field go poof. One can assume Stanley's entire force was a single stack anyway because of the Artifact Bonus making it worth it to lead all those Dwagons, so he prolly kept everyone he had with him at the time.


Actually, we don't know that for sure. We've never seen a side lose its capital while it still had other cities. What if a capital city is required to have a treasury and stockpile shmuckers, but units with leadership still retain their purse, can earn shmuckers from cities you control, and can pay for upkeep of units in their stack? Cities might also be able to pay for their garrison directly, even for unled units, so units inside cities don't disband like the ones traveling with Wanda on the road, or freeze in time.

So a side might lose its capital, but still exist as a side rather than as barbarians. They'd just be crippled until they got a new capital. They wouldn't be able to save up money or send unled units outside of cities, not to mention other things like appointing new heirs.

This is all speculation of course, but I don't think anything we've seen rules this out.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:58 am

I'm not sure about that. Zombie Ansom's plan seemed to imply that a capital strike against Jetstone would be an irrecoverable blow. If what you propose is true, his plan only works if Slately, Ossomer and Trammenis all croak in the capital fight (Ansom has no way to know Trammenis hasn't already been promoted to heir). That seems like a risky maneuver unless the payoff for taking the capital even if an heir survives is big.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:46 am

GWvsJohn wrote:If what you propose is true, his plan only works if Slately, Ossomer and Tramennis all croak in the capital fight (Ansom has no way to know Tramennis hasn't already been promoted to heir). That seems like a risky maneuver unless the payoff for taking the capital even if an heir survives is big.
It never had any chance of being like Wanda at the end of Goodminton, since Spacerock was only one of Jetstone's multiple capital-site cities. They at least also have the city of Jetstone, and surely they could have transferred the capital after Spacerock was captured without any serious loss. Slately wasn't even considering transferring the capital until Charlie suggested it, so I'm sure that field units wouldn't disband.

Remember that in the original plan there was no chance at all for Slately, Ossomer, or Tramennis to escape because the attack was supposed to happen on Gobwin Knob's turn, preventing Jetstone from moving. In the game of Erfworld, only attackers are allowed to retreat; defenders are forced to hold their position and fight, even to the last man.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:59 am

The plan was that all Jetstone sons would croak, so that isn't the best example.

Jillian and Stanley however, are. Both of them specifically headed for Capital Sites to rebuild their sides. That is a pretty clear indication that you need one.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby bladestorm » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:08 pm

0beron wrote:Ok for one...they're called CAPITAL sides for a reason. You can't very well be a Capital Side without having half the equation. Without a Capital, you have no Treasury. Without a Treasury, units don't have a source of Upkeep, so they auto-disband. Cities go neutral and the poor schmucks in the field go poof. One can assume Stanley's entire force was a single stack anyway because of the Artifact Bonus making it worth it to lead all those Dwagons, so he prolly kept everyone he had with him at the time.

As for FAQ being in the Library, Keighvin1 is drawing an artificial line. Crush clearly states that by nature of the fact that all these peaceful sides have books Published, they have fallen. Trying to exclude FAQ from "those sides" merely because it's not in the same sentence is a non sequitur. So what we learn tangentally is that even deliberate Publishing won't push a book to the "cloud" until the side has fallen.

An interesting idea just came to me ( though it may have already been made before). What if the Arkentools make all of their designated units 0 upkeep? Charlescomm's Archons with no upkeep, Stanley's Dwagons with no upkeep, and now Wanda's decrypted with no upkeep.... Such a mechanic would make it a lot easier for Stanley (without actually knowing it was in place) to maintain his stack (dwagons don't seem to be cheap units to upkeep, and he had the caster's to support if he did indeed lose his Treasury during the Gobwin Revolt) without the treasury. It would also massively increase the threat level of Charlescomm, since Parson couldn't just cut off Charlie's supply of income and expect the upkeep of the Archons to have such a massive impact on Charlescomm.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:35 pm

I feel it would have been mentioned if that were the case, since the lack of upkeep on the Decrypted was noteworthy, we should have heard if Stanley didn't have to pay for Dwagons either.
Stanley Razed 3 cities including a well built Capital, so between his Casters and him there seems like definitely enough Purse space to sustain a stack of Dwagons for just a few turns, especially if they foraged as well.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby drachefly » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:22 pm

Lilwik wrote:Losing the capital may not end the side, but it clearly does cause field units to disband.


No way. In that case, Slately would have transferred the capital immediately. It was the death of Wanda's dad that triggered the mass-disband.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby 0beron » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:02 pm

drachefly wrote:It was the death of Wanda's dad that triggered the mass-disband.
Actually no it was indeed the loss of the Capital. Wanda became Ruler when her father croaked (hence how she was able to see all those lights) and her troops then disbanded when the last unit in the city went out and she lost her Ruler senses. It was definitely the loss of the city which triggered the Disband.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:02 pm

0beron wrote:Actually no it was indeed the loss of the Capital. Wanda became Ruler when her father croaked (hence how she was able to see all those lights) and her troops then disbanded when the last unit in the city went out and she lost her Ruler senses. It was definitely the loss of the city which triggered the Disband.
Agreed, that is exactly how it happened, so the death of Overlord Firebaugh couldn't have caused it, but I also recognize that drachefly has a point that we're not sure why the loss of Goodminton city caused field units to disband. It could be because Goodminton city was Goodminton's capital, but it could also be because Goodminton city was Goodminton's last city, or because it was Goodminton's last capital-site city. That would explain why Slately didn't seem to think transferring the capital was important.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lipkin » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:21 pm

Unaroyal's armies were all made to leave the city, Bea killed herself, and they all disbanded. There were no enemy forces inside the city to take it that we know of, so the city should have still been Unaroyal's. Yet the army vanished with Bea.

On the subject of Charlie's Archons not having upkeep, yeah, they do. We know they do. The Decrypted Archons told Parson the upkeep of Charlie's forces. The lowest level Archon has an upkeep of 500 smuckers, if I remember correctly. His entire goal, as far as the decrypted Archons knew, was to gain more wealth, to support a larger army, to gain more wealth, to support a larger army, and so on. Charlie may have been lying about his goals, but the Archons were not capable of lying about their upkeep to Parson, and a unit knows what their upkeep is.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lilwik » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:01 pm

Lipkin wrote:Unaroyal's armies were all made to leave the city, Bea killed herself, and they all disbanded. There were no enemy forces inside the city to take it that we know of, so the city should have still been Unaroyal's. Yet the army vanished with Bea.
That's just what Parson explained in B1K12; the side ended because its ruler died with no heir, and apparently a side cannot exist with no ruler. It clearly establishes that there is more than one way to get the field units to disband, since we've now also seen it happen to a side that still had a ruler. I guess a side losing its last city will also make it happen.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby GWvsJohn » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:01 pm

Lipkin wrote:Unaroyal's armies were all made to leave the city, Bea killed herself, and they all disbanded. There were no enemy forces inside the city to take it that we know of, so the city should have still been Unaroyal's. Yet the army vanished with Bea.

On the subject of Charlie's Archons not having upkeep, yeah, they do. We know they do. The Decrypted Archons told Parson the upkeep of Charlie's forces. The lowest level Archon has an upkeep of 500 smuckers, if I remember correctly. His entire goal, as far as the decrypted Archons knew, was to gain more wealth, to support a larger army, to gain more wealth, to support a larger army, and so on. Charlie may have been lying about his goals, but the Archons were not capable of lying about their upkeep to Parson, and a unit knows what their upkeep is.


Bea had no heir. We were told explicitly what happens when a ruler croaks with no heir. All field units disband. All cities freeze.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 10

Postby Lipkin » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:14 pm

Maybe if the heir is in the capitol, there is no transition where units in the field disband?
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