Digdoug - Episode 13

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:06 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Free Radical wrote:"can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Denar wrote:Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule.


When has that ever actually been stated to be a rule? I mean, we know how the trap works. Are you saying you believe he can't stick a metal rod on the roof of the Tower unless there's lightning around? I'd like some actual in story quotes where he says he physically can't put a metal pole on top of a tall building and wire it to the towers Shockmancy storage. Because I don't remember him ever saying that.


Do you not understand what 'not a lighting storm in the hex' means?

WTF good would a lightning rod do if there's no lightning around?

Why do you think a lightning rod and lightning would power a trap anyway?
User avatar
OneHugeTuck
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:11 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
Free Radical wrote:"can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Denar wrote:Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule.


When has that ever actually been stated to be a rule? I mean, we know how the trap works. Are you saying you believe he can't stick a metal rod on the roof of the Tower unless there's lightning around? I'd like some actual in story quotes where he says he physically can't put a metal pole on top of a tall building and wire it to the towers Shockmancy storage. Because I don't remember him ever saying that.


Do you not understand what 'not a lighting storm in the hex' means?

WTF good would a lightning rod do if there's no lightning around?

Why do you think a lightning rod and lightning would power a trap anyway?


I think that the point is that that isn't a rule being broken.
cheeseaholic
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:53 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:
I think that the point is that that isn't a rule being broken.


By what criteria are you or anyone else positing that there's no rule that says 'powering a tower with a storm in a hex can only be accomplished if there's a storm in that hex'?

Wouldn't you think that EVERY SINGLE AIR DEFENSE would have a storm powered trap if they could have one?

Wouldn't it be -great- to have a storm powered trap without a storm? I think it'd be great.
User avatar
OneHugeTuck
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:09 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:
I think that the point is that that isn't a rule being broken.


By what criteria are you or anyone else positing that there's no rule that says 'powering a tower with a storm in a hex can only be accomplished if there's a storm in that hex'?

Wouldn't you think that EVERY SINGLE AIR DEFENSE would have a storm powered trap if they could have one?

Wouldn't it be -great- to have a storm powered trap without a storm? I think it'd be great.


Ummm....

Free Radical wrote:"can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Denar wrote:Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule.


Who said anything about powering air defenses? This was about casting a spell.

Or in a wider sense about any rule that might be getting broken.
cheeseaholic
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:13 pm

Free Radical wrote:"can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Denar wrote:Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule.


Denar wrote:Who said anything about powering air defenses? This was about casting a spell.

Or in a wider sense about any rule that might be getting broken.


Uhhh, you did (you who just quoted two lines about about spells being cast for an air defence).
User avatar
OneHugeTuck
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:05 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:So they freeze until attacked. Ok. Was missing that last part.

Would a barbarian climbing the walls automatically be 'attacking'? If they're frozen, he could just be exploring. If they were frozen and a gate was open, a barbarian (or member of another side) wouldn't necessarily be considered to be attacking.....(?)

So barbarians can live in cities/ruins but can't claim them, only rulers or members of a side claiming a city for their ruler can claim a city.

Erfworld works such that there are really only three types of units. Units that are on your side, allied units, and enemy units. If you are not on a unit's side, or allied with their side, you are automatically considered an enemy. Remember that unled units will always attack any non-allied units if physically able. There is no middle ground of neutral (despite the term 'Neutral Cities'). So, your theoretical barbarian would always be considered to be attacking at any point in which he is in that hex, regardless of location or intent, unless he somehow manages to ally with the Neutral City (which likely isn't possible), in which case it would likely freeze again, though it might stay active while he is there. We likely don't know everything there is to know about Neutral Cities in that regard.

As for claiming, the specifics on what makes a ruler are a little vague. It seems like any barbarian warlord (or any warlord period) has the ability to become a ruler simply by deciding to be so. Parson stated that he could spin off a new side at any time if he wanted, which would make him ruler of that side. Posbreak seems to have started a new side and become ruler despite not being Heir (though that is a bit unclear, he might have been, but it sounds like he is just a warlord). So, presuming your barbarian is a Warlord, and he somehow could overcome the forces inside the city (hit and run tactics might be effective here, not sure), it seems likely that he could claim it and start up his own side as ruler.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:54 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote: Remember that unled units will always attack any non-allied units if physically able.



Hmm. I did totally forgot that.

But a barbarian warlord/commander could wander through frozen units (if they stayed frozen), a non-warlord/non-commander couldn't as would have to attack.

So is there any scenario where a non-allied unit could wander through frozen neutral units without activating them?

Doesn't look like my fanfic idea is going to survive this one....
User avatar
OneHugeTuck
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Xarx » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:28 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:
But a barbarian warlord/commander could wander through frozen units (if they stayed frozen), a non-warlord/non-commander couldn't as would have to attack.

So is there any scenario where a non-allied unit could wander through frozen neutral units without activating them?

No, I don't think so. Unless maybe they were a Carnymancer and broke that rule, of course.

Apropos of your first point, have we seen any examples of naturally-popped barbarians (as opposed to remnants of a side that happened to be in the ruler's stack when the capital was lost) that aren't either warlords or casters? If they exist, they probably wouldn't last too long in the wild. They might not even have a purse, which would mean that they couldn't exist without leadership.

Edit from the wiki:
Without a purse to store Shmuckers to pay for Rations, an unled Barbarian must hunt wildlife for provisions.

So evidently they do exist, but few would last very long since they'd have to attack everyone they met.
Last edited by Xarx on Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xarx
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:32 am

If they were lowly non commander barbarians, they'd have to attack every dwagon/wild unit they came across...great if they win for rations for the day, but not so good if they lose. Makes sense warlords would be the only barbarians around, as they're the only ones that could tiptoe away from a dwagon or equivalent.
User avatar
OneHugeTuck
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:34 am

Xarx wrote:No, I don't think so. Unless maybe they were a Carnymancer and broke that rule, of course.
.


Scouts have a stealth/invisibility or some such special, as I recall? I wonder if that allows for not having to auto-attack if sneaking around normal/frozen units.
User avatar
OneHugeTuck
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:40 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote: Remember that unled units will always attack any non-allied units if physically able.



Hmm. I did totally forgot that.

But a barbarian warlord/commander could wander through frozen units (if they stayed frozen), a non-warlord/non-commander couldn't as would have to attack.

So is there any scenario where a non-allied unit could wander through frozen neutral units without activating them?

Doesn't look like my fanfic idea is going to survive this one....

The barbarian could refrain from attacking, but the city itself might not be able to if it has lost its command. And one way or the other, even if both parties are led, and both refrain from attacking, it still counts as an enemy in the battle space, which is likely all that is required to unfreeze the city. I doubt it actually requires someone physically making an attack to unfreeze the city. Parson was just using 'attack' as the most likely result and reason for a unit to be in the battle space of a neutral city.

Now, that said, both could refrain from attacking, and at that point the people in the city might allow themselves to be conquered just to not be neutral any more... but I figure there is likely some very strong duty/loyalty going on to prevent that.

Scouts have a stealth/invisibility or some such special, as I recall? I wonder if that allows for not having to auto-attack if sneaking around normal/frozen units.


Different scouts have different things. The only real dedicated scout unit we seem to have seen so far is Transylvito bats. They seem to have some natural thinkamancy that allows them to not engage in combat even when unled. We don't really know if that is something special for Tansylvito, or if that is a natural part of the scout special (if such a thing even exists), or if most sides have to rely on warlords that have a scout special or something similar. Remember that during TBFGK Jetstone was sending out warlords with (or without) hats to do all their scouting, or Vinny's bats.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Xarx » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:11 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:
Scouts have a stealth/invisibility or some such special, as I recall? I wonder if that allows for not having to auto-attack if sneaking around normal/frozen units.

Not invisibility, no. The scout that Wanda zapped was wearing a veil that made him look like an animal, but it was a piece of equipment, not an innate ability (http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/IPTSF_Text_5).

Could a scout sneak into a neutral city without auto-attacking? Possibly, but it still seems suicidal since every unit he passed would have a chance of spotting him no matter how well he was concealed. It seems inevitable that someone would, and then he's toast.

Leaving aside sneaking into frozen cities, the barbarian scout has the potential to be a viable unit type. It would still be a hard life, scrabbling for rations every day, but at least they wouldn't have to attack everything on sight. This is assuming that the scout unit is not in fact a warlord type with its own purse, which is only proposed canon.
Xarx
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby ftl » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:40 pm

If I had to guess, I would guess that "being attacked" for a frozen city just meant that there was an enemy unit in the city. Seems like that would make the most sense.
ftl
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:41 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Free Radical wrote:"can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Denar wrote:Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule.


When has that ever actually been stated to be a rule? I mean, we know how the trap works. Are you saying you believe he can't stick a metal rod on the roof of the Tower unless there's lightning around? I'd like some actual in story quotes where he says he physically can't put a metal pole on top of a tall building and wire it to the towers Shockmancy storage. Because I don't remember him ever saying that.


Yep, that's what I'm saying.

Digdoug pointed up at the rafters, indicating the thunder with a grin. “That’s, um, actually close what I was thinking,” he said. “I can trap the tower to catch the lightning. Then, if there are non-allied units in the city—in the airspace or on the ground—it will throw lightning bolts at ‘em!”....
....
What he did could help her do what she did, and she knew it. “You can only do that in a city like this, though,” he added, pointing up again. “The storm.”


Quite clearly saying that he can't trap the tower using that spell without it being a lightning storm hex.

"He physically can't put a metal pole on top of a tall building and...." woah woah woah. He's not physically putting it there, he's casting a spell. It might end up looking like a "metal pole" but it's still a magical upgrade to specifically the Tower. And in erfworld, things are always much more than they appear. Don't try and simplify it to make it seem like it's such an obvious process, otherwise we'll be arguing next why a Stabber can't stand on top of the Tower, hold his spear up, and function as a lightning rod.
Denar
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:01 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:35 pm

Denar wrote:Don't try and simplify it to make it seem like it's such an obvious process, otherwise we'll be arguing next why a Stabber can't stand on top of the Tower, hold his spear up, and function as a lightning rod.


Because a lightning rod isn't just a pole on top of a building? It's a rod that runs all the way down to the ground. That's the point, it's supposed to act as a ground for lightning. Normal lightning rods couldn't help store energy simply because the lightning rod sends the energy into the ground immediately. And if it didn't act as a ground, it wouldn't catch the lightning at all, since the whole reason a lightning rod "attracts" lightning is that it is a ground, not that it happens to add a few feet to the roof of a building.
Godzfirefly
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:51 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:08 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Denar wrote:Don't try and simplify it to make it seem like it's such an obvious process, otherwise we'll be arguing next why a Stabber can't stand on top of the Tower, hold his spear up, and function as a lightning rod.


Because a lightning rod isn't just a pole on top of a building? It's a rod that runs all the way down to the ground. That's the point, it's supposed to act as a ground for lightning. Normal lightning rods couldn't help store energy simply because the lightning rod sends the energy into the ground immediately. And if it didn't act as a ground, it wouldn't catch the lightning at all, since the whole reason a lightning rod "attracts" lightning is that it is a ground, not that it happens to add a few feet to the roof of a building.


I... but... I just said...

This is Erfworld. "Lightning rods" may be a simple idea in our world, but in Erfworld they aren't just a pole on top of a building. It's not really a lightning rod. The thing we're talking about is a Lightning Trap. A Dirtamancer needs to cast a spell, which they can only do in a specific hex, in order for the lightning to charge the trap. As we saw from Chains' reaction, most units probably aren't even aware that such a thing is possible. Is it even "lightning" in Erfworld? Probably not, it's just a manifestation of terrain and natural dirtamancy or whatever, like fires. Our real world physics - "grounds" and "electricity" - shouldn't be used as the rules for a feature in Erfworld.

So no, a the lightning trap in Erfworld isn't just a pole on a building, otherwise Digdoug wouldn't need to cast a specific spell in a specific hex in order for it to exist.
Denar
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:01 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:17 pm

As per the episode 14, Digdoug basically states that just because he built the trap doesn't mean it'll necessarily work. He thinks Dove's spell did what he wanted, but he can't be sure. If he isn't sure, but he made the trap, then making the trap doesn't require a storm hex. Making it work does.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:28 pm

I would disagree with your assessment.


Her hands grew warmer on his back, and the interior of the ambush hole lit up with orange sparks. She muttered and whispered. He couldn’t make out the magical speech until she got to the trigger phrase, “Penguin Storm.”
...
“Did—” Digdoug cleared his throat. “Did it work?”
“Of course it worked. Start building. You’ve got one turn to put in your lightning trap.”


This line suggests that Dove's Carnymancy is breaking the rule that Digdoug has to be in a Lightning Hex to create a Lightning Trap, as per her description of Carnymancy. (break one rule for one unit for one turn)

When he’d been casting to build the trap, he could see how it would use Dove’s cheat to function.


This line suggests that her Carnymancy worked by complementing his own casting. Also the next line sounds like what Wanda felt like after casting a Dirtamancy scroll, or what casters remember about the spells they cast while in a link up. He's "not sure" because the process used magic outside his own discipline/used a spell he doesn't have access to.

Peck was skeptical that Dove’s Carnymancy had really allowed for the creation of a terrain-dependent trap in the wrong type of terrain, and he wanted a test.


The Carnymancy is credited with allowing the trap to be created.

edit: I'm basically saying, if Digdoug could create a Lightning Trap in any hex - but it wouldn't work - and then it required Carnymancy to function, then that would be what we would have seen. Digdoug would have made the trap first, and then Dove would have cast over it to apply carnymancy to it. Instead, we see her cast Carnymancy on him - as per her description, she's breaking a rule for him - and then he is able to make the Trap.
Denar
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:01 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Denar wrote:I would disagree with your assessment.


Her hands grew warmer on his back, and the interior of the ambush hole lit up with orange sparks. She muttered and whispered. He couldn’t make out the magical speech until she got to the trigger phrase, “Penguin Storm.”
...
“Did—” Digdoug cleared his throat. “Did it work?”
“Of course it worked. Start building. You’ve got one turn to put in your lightning trap.”


This line suggests that Dove's Carnymancy is breaking the rule that Digdoug has to be in a Lightning Hex to create a Lightning Trap, as per her description of Carnymancy. (break one rule for one unit for one turn)

When he’d been casting to build the trap, he could see how it would use Dove’s cheat to function.


This line suggests that her Carnymancy worked by complementing his own casting. Also the next line sounds like what Wanda felt like after casting a Dirtamancy scroll, or what casters remember about the spells they cast while in a link up. He's "not sure" because the process used magic outside his own discipline/used a spell he doesn't have access to.

Peck was skeptical that Dove’s Carnymancy had really allowed for the creation of a terrain-dependent trap in the wrong type of terrain, and he wanted a test.


Peck, at least, has been told that the Carnymancy allowed the trap to be created.


ALL of that points to there being a question of if the lightning trap will actually function. There isn't any reason to believe that Digdoug couldn't build a 'lightning trap' object/building/whatever anywhere he wants, but for it to work it needs the right weather, or it needs the cheat. Peck isn't utterly retarded, he can't be skeptical that a new physical object is present in the city if he can see it. He isn't skeptical that there is a lightning rod in the tower, he is skeptical that it will do anything, which is why he wanted a test.

Digdoug being anything less than 100% certain (and he is less than 100% certain) that the trap is entirely functional as Dove suggested is fairly clear evidence that being in a storm hex isn't required to make the trap, only for it to do anything. If it was absolutely required to be in a storm hex, and he made it, then that would de facto prove it is working, and there would thus be no doubt.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:55 pm

There isn't any reason to believe that Digdoug couldn't build a 'lightning trap' object/building/whatever anywhere he wants,


There is, I've given you several quotes now. I'm sure he probably could just create a metal rod and stick it on a building. That wouldn't be a lightning trap though. Not in Erfworld.

Of course Peck is skeptical whether it will function, he's... not retarded. He doesn't trust Dove, for good reason. He's worried this whole attack is a big mistake, and he wants to know as much as he can about what they can do if it all goes sour. He wants a demonstration that this is a real Lightning Trap, and not some "show" that Dove's carnymancy has put on.

Digdoug being anything less than 100% certain (and he is less than 100% certain) that the trap is entirely functional as Dove suggested is fairly clear evidence...


that its construction used magic he doesn't understand. Like with Wanda and her scrolls, and Jack's description of the fool-lookmancy table. Each time, the reason has been because it uses magic that they can't understand/could never dream of. Jack can't explain how the eyemancy books work anymore, but they still function. Digdoug can't understand how a lightning trap could be cast in the wrong terrain, but he still managed to.
Denar
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:01 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Daefaroth, Google [Bot] and 12 guests