Digdoug - Episode 15

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Omnimancer » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:31 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Speaking of which, do we know if Homekey or Delkey has first turn order? Because if Homekey has first spot, then that idea is clearly wrong. It is possible that is how it is though, with it being simple age. I very much doubt however that it is a variable that can change in any way, because everyone in Erfworld seems exceedingly confident of their turn order in relation to others, so I doubt it'd ever change.


As allies they share the same turn. I don't think there's been any indication which has an earlier turn if they separated.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:37 pm

ftl wrote:I am very wary of identifying something in particular and saying that a tri-link can't do it.
This is one of the things that they probably can't do. It may be very expensive to hire a tri-link, but Erfworlders are willing to make contracts worth thousands of shmuckers. 90 thousand shmuckers in B0E10, and 135 thousand shmuckers in Digdoug 12. If you wanted to betray your ally and get out of your contract, then you're making an enemy and the last thing you would want to do would be to give your new enemy a sudden boost in shmuckers, so you should be willing to pay even more shmuckers to hire a tri-link, yet people still seem to expect to get paid. How much could a tri-link cost? People would know that a tri-link is especially cheap for Charlie since he's famous for being a powerful Thinkamancer, yet they make valuable contracts even with him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Omnimancer » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:55 pm

I doubt carnymancers can break contracts in general. Charlie + arkendish + tri-link might be an exception to that.

It's also possible that even if you can break a contract (which is dubious), it's harder to break a bigger contract than a smaller one. A contract for 1,000 shmuckers might be exponentially easier to break than one for 100,000.

In addition, carnymancy often involves making a "trade". Breaking the rules comes with a pretty steep consequence sometimes. So breaking a contract might have some horrific cost, rather than just being a free way to get out of a deal.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lamech » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:56 pm

You can already break contracts with other sides you just need to chuck some shmuckers at them. And you can just steal them right back.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Salvage » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:29 pm

I have so enjoyed getting to know Digdoug. Also I was glad to see Alison Chains mentioned.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby bpzinn » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:08 pm

SNfinity wrote:As far as turn order, I always assumed that older sides get earlier spots on the turn order. I never gave it too much thought, mind, but that's my guess.


Funnily enough, I assumed the opposite, that Barbarians (technically no side at all) went first, and every new side after that went to the head of the line. So metaphorically the older sides were slower, and the younger sides a bit more spry.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:17 pm

bpzinn wrote:Funnily enough, I assumed the opposite, that Barbarians (technically no side at all) went first, and every new side after that went to the head of the line.
We don't know that barbarians technically have no side. In fact, I would say that it is impossible since Wanda became a barbarian in B0E26 and nothing had happened that should have ended her side, especially since Goodminton's ruler was still alive.

We also don't know that barbarians always go first in the turn order. In fact, it seems that Banhammer and his casters must be barbarians in Book 0 after they lose their cities since they seem to be in exactly the same situation that Wanda was in when she became a barbarian, yet Faq's turn came after Haffaton's turn.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Omnimancer » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:44 am

Lilwik wrote:
bpzinn wrote:Funnily enough, I assumed the opposite, that Barbarians (technically no side at all) went first, and every new side after that went to the head of the line.
We don't know that barbarians technically have no side. In fact, I would say that it is impossible since Wanda became a barbarian in B0E26 and nothing had happened that should have ended her side, especially since Goodminton's ruler was still alive.

We also don't know that barbarians always go first in the turn order. In fact, it seems that Banhammer and his casters must be barbarians in Book 0 after they lose their cities since they seem to be in exactly the same situation that Wanda was in when she became a barbarian, yet Faq's turn came after Haffaton's turn.


They might have kept their turn order with Haffaton from when they were a side, since they were still in the middle of a conflict.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Arky » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:00 pm

bpzinn wrote:
SNfinity wrote:As far as turn order, I always assumed that older sides get earlier spots on the turn order. I never gave it too much thought, mind, but that's my guess.


Funnily enough, I assumed the opposite, that Barbarians (technically no side at all) went first, and every new side after that went to the head of the line. So metaphorically the older sides were slower, and the younger sides a bit more spry.


I'm strongly considering changing up my Kickstarter entry to one which allows me to get a no-spoilers question answered by Rob, and if so I might ask about how side order is determined. It seems like the kind of thing he would answer and would be fun to know.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Arky wrote:I'm strongly considering changing up my Kickstarter entry to one which allows me to get a no-spoilers question answered by Rob, and if so I might ask about how side order is determined.
I would prefer to know if Fate is an actual plan that some magical force ensures will happen. Is Predictamancy the magic of looking ahead in some script that has been written for Erfworld in advance, or is it the magic of predicting the free choices of Erfworlders? Are Erfworlders free, or is there a ghost haunting the rafters and ready to drop a beam the moment anyone steps out of line?

By my count we'll have at least 14 people who will be able to ask questions. Some of those questions are bound to be duplicates, and some of the answers won't be shared, but hopefully we'll see at least a few really deep and interesting answers.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Arky » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:37 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Arky wrote:I'm strongly considering changing up my Kickstarter entry to one which allows me to get a no-spoilers question answered by Rob, and if so I might ask about how side order is determined.
I would prefer to know if Fate is an actual plan that some magical force ensures will happen. Is Predictamancy the magic of looking ahead in some script that has been written for Erfworld in advance, or is it the magic of predicting the free choices of Erfworlders? Are Erfworlders free, or is there a ghost haunting the rafters and ready to drop a beam the moment anyone steps out of line?

By my count we'll have at least 14 people who will be able to ask questions. Some of those questions are bound to be duplicates, and some of the answers won't be shared, but hopefully we'll see at least a few really deep and interesting answers.


I would expect the Fate question to be a spoiler, for good or ill. Maybe the Predictamancy question too. Very central to a number of story arcs, and there's probably good reason why Rob has not clarified those in the strip so far.

All the speculation with Erfworld kind of reminds me of the glory days of Wheel of Time with everyone and their dog trying to get Robert Jordan to tell them who killed Asmodean (although there never was a good reason for that particular secret to be kept secret so long, really... I always figured it was kept secret for a plot thread which was scrapped later either by Jordan or by Brandon Sanderson).
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:38 pm

Arky wrote:I would expect the Fate question to be a spoiler, for good or ill. Maybe the Predictamancy question too.
They are really the same question. Knowing the answer to one would reveal the answer to the other. Even just knowing that the answer would be a spoiler would be very interesting, because that would tell us that the answer could be relevant to Erfworld's future plot. If there is no invisible force holding people to the plan, then how could its absence be a spoiler? And if it is a spoiler then that makes it an even better question to ask because then you would get to reveal it as a spoiler plus ask another question.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Deezee » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:23 pm

Lilwik wrote:I would prefer to know if Fate is an actual plan that some magical force ensures will happen. Is Predictamancy the magic of looking ahead in some script that has been written for Erfworld in advance, or is it the magic of predicting the free choices of Erfworlders? Are Erfworlders free, or is there a ghost haunting the rafters and ready to drop a beam the moment anyone steps out of line?

By my count we'll have at least 14 people who will be able to ask questions. Some of those questions are bound to be duplicates, and some of the answers won't be shared, but hopefully we'll see at least a few really deep and interesting answers.


We already know Fate isn't an actual plan, although it might be a force that directs people in a way that moves them according to some plan.

Go back to page 1 of book 1; the Marbits finding the gem wasn't part of the Titans plan, so presumably Lord Manpower was supposed to survive Warchalking or something.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:36 pm

Deezee wrote:We already know Fate isn't an actual plan, although it might be a force that directs people in a way that moves them according to some plan.
Aren't those two things effectively the same? If we really know there is no plan, then how can Fate possibly enforce the plan?

We almost know that Fate isn't a force the directs people according to a plan based on B0E24. Delphie said that Wanda would be able to commit suicide, which would mean that there is no force to stop her, but even so it is still only the testimony of one caster who might somehow be mistaken. I would love to have Word of the Titans to confirm it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lipkin » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Deezee wrote:We already know Fate isn't an actual plan, although it might be a force that directs people in a way that moves them according to some plan.
Aren't those two things effectively the same? If we really know there is no plan, then how can Fate possibly enforce the plan?

We almost know that Fate isn't a force the directs people according to a plan based on B0E24. Delphie said that Wanda would be able to commit suicide, which would mean that there is no force to stop her, but even so it is still only the testimony of one caster who might somehow be mistaken. I would love to have Word of the Titans to confirm it.

Replace "perfect strategy" with "fate."

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F124.jpg

That's how I see Fate working. It has a plan, but it doesn't have control. It tries to influence things subtly, but it doesn't always work. It only gets directly involved if it has no other choice. It's possible Wanda could jump, but that doesn't mean something "coincidental" wouldn't draw someone's attention to what she was attempting and stop her, or that if she did fall, that it would kill her. This is how you can have a force with a plan, and still have free will.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:59 pm

Lipkin wrote:That's how I see Fate working. It has a plan, but it doesn't have control. It tries to influence things subtly, but it doesn't always work.
That can't be how it works. Predictamancy is a guarantee. Of course we've never seen it fail in the story and Predictamancers talk as if it were guaranteed, but more importantly any intelligence-gathering magic like that would need to be guaranteed because it would be useless if it couldn't be trusted.

Lipkin wrote:It's possible Wanda could jump, but that doesn't mean something "coincidental" wouldn't draw someone's attention to what she was attempting and stop her, or that if she did fall, that it would kill her. This is how you can have a force with a plan, and still have free will.
Having an invisible force controlling what you do is not freedom, no matter how subtle it is. All subtlety gives you is an illusion of free will. A puppet is still a puppet even if its strings are invisible. If Fate would step in to subtly stop Wanda from killing herself, then Delphie should never have said that Wanda could kill herself, because Wanda actually could not kill herself. No matter how hard she tried, something would always stop her. Either Wanda is a puppet who cannot go against the plan, or else she has free will and there is no plan.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lipkin » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:33 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:That's how I see Fate working. It has a plan, but it doesn't have control. It tries to influence things subtly, but it doesn't always work.
That can't be how it works. Predictamancy is a guarantee. Of course we've never seen it fail in the story and Predictamancers talk as if it were guaranteed, but more importantly any intelligence-gathering magic like that would need to be guaranteed because it would be useless if it couldn't be trusted.

Lipkin wrote:It's possible Wanda could jump, but that doesn't mean something "coincidental" wouldn't draw someone's attention to what she was attempting and stop her, or that if she did fall, that it would kill her. This is how you can have a force with a plan, and still have free will.
Having an invisible force controlling what you do is not freedom, no matter how subtle it is. All subtlety gives you is an illusion of free will. A puppet is still a puppet even if its strings are invisible. If Fate would step in to subtly stop Wanda from killing herself, then Delphie should never have said that Wanda could kill herself, because Wanda actually could not kill herself. No matter how hard she tried, something would always stop her. Either Wanda is a puppet who cannot go against the plan, or else she has free will and there is no plan.

"Predictamancy is tricky."

Any time Predictamancy is "wrong," fate can adjust to make the prediction come true in an unexpected way.

And the force isn't controlling the people. If it could control the people, it wouldn't need to drop a beam on Parson.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Lipkin wrote:And the force isn't controlling the people. If it could control the people, it wouldn't need to drop a beam on Parson.
That is exactly controlling people. Using violence instead of mind manipulation doesn't make it less controlling.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lipkin » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:54 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:And the force isn't controlling the people. If it could control the people, it wouldn't need to drop a beam on Parson.
That is exactly controlling people. Using violence instead of mind manipulation doesn't make it less controlling.

No, it isn't still controlling people, and yes, it is different. With mind control, the person being manipulated has no choice. With violence, the person being manipulated can choose to be punished. One gives the option for rebellion, the other does not.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby jeffseadot » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:06 am

Omnimancer wrote:I doubt carnymancers can break contracts in general. Charlie + arkendish + tri-link might be an exception to that.

It's also possible that even if you can break a contract (which is dubious), it's harder to break a bigger contract than a smaller one. A contract for 1,000 shmuckers might be exponentially easier to break than one for 100,000.

In addition, carnymancy often involves making a "trade". Breaking the rules comes with a pretty steep consequence sometimes. So breaking a contract might have some horrific cost, rather than just being a free way to get out of a deal.


I doubt carnymancers *would* break contracts. It's just not their style. I see them as being like an evil genie who will give somebody *exactly* what they ask for, but in an unexpectedly negative way. It could be that they appreciate rules and contracts, just so that they could have something to twist around.

One recurring theme I've noticed is that casters seem to have a unique appreciation for whatever is the opposite of their discipline. Jack the foolamancer was very alert and aware of his surroundings; Wanda the croakamancer has shown an appreciation for life that was unheard of in its scope. Maybe there's something about a carnymancer's ability and inclination to break rules that gives them a unique perspective on the matter of defying a contract.
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