Digdoug - Episode 17

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:13 am

Omnimancer wrote:I think it's similar to when Charlie contacted Parson, offering to stay out of the fight against Stanley in exchange for mathamancy predictions. Charlie made a deal, saw an opportunity to screw his client by making a second deal, and took it.

Book 1 - Page 105 wrote:CharlsNChrg: I'll just tell Ansom I'm there "to assist if necessary."

LordHamster: Heh.

CharlsNChrg: Don't laugh, Champ. It might be true.

Charlie was completely upfront with Parson about that. He took a contract from Parson to not croak Stanley, and Charlie honored that contract. When Ansom had his tender bits in a vice, Charlie took the opportunity to bail him out, just like he told Parson he might. Charlie is a great villain, and I'm continually impressed by how well Rob is able to balance him so that he's a bastard, yet he always honors all his obligations.

Gathrun wrote:And that's why they were pushing for an heir to be popped. But how now to have someone else take over a side without destroying it?

Or is this the end of the story, the main point of it having been played out?

Well, early in Book 2, there was discussion of a side converting. The speculation was that if you turn a side's heir and then croak its ruler, the side would convert to that which the heir is now loyal. Still, Homekey does not possess an heir, so that isn't an option. Still, there was another possibility.

Lord Crush - Part 3 wrote:Most of those unfortunate people had known their end was near. Rulers usually made some final gesture of defiance (spending their treasury on city upgrades), or desperation (hiring natural allies, casters, or mercenaries) or capitulation (signing a contract of surrender). But Crush was only looking for cases where the side hadn’t been aware of their imminent demise. He’d gathered up a stack of good examples to hold onto.

The contract of surrender is what I think Creen has in mind, especially considering his comment about a "civilized transfer of power." I imagine if both Posbrake and Creen sign a treaty in which Posbrake abdicates the throne in favor of Creen, Creen would become King of Homekey, and the side as a whole would be otherwise unaffected, at least until Creen starts making changes as the ruler. Of course, that's only a guess.

As for the story itself, I'm certain it isn't over. Doug donated for a story both for the Erfworld Year of the Dwagon Kickstarter and the Erfworld Battle Crest Lapel Pins Kickstarter, plus he rented Rob for a day during the E is for Erfworld Kickstarter. Anyway, Rob and Doug agreed to one novella-size story in lieu of two shorter stories. Part of the reward is a drawing of the character. Much like the Lord Crush story, that drawing will probably be part of the last update, but there is one unknown. Since Doug donated for two stories, he is technically entitled to two character sketches. I have no idea if he and Rob discussed this, or what they may have decided if they did. Anyway, it isn't over until we see at least one picture of Digdoug. It may not end until we see two.

Okay, a few more random thoughts, then I'll shut up.

Book 1 - Page 130 wrote:CharlsNChrg: When you're working for Charlescomm, you'll learn. We prefer to play games that don't even contain a losing outcome. You see?

This is the epitome of Charlie the mercenary, at least prior to the Battle of Gobwin Knob. Whatever ends up happening in the story, Charlie is going to win. The simplest outcome is that the archons support Prince Creen during this regime change, collect their money and go home, but that's probably too obvious and boring. There's probably yet another twist coming, but, whatever it is, Charlie is going to win. There, however, is another side to Charlie. There is Charlie the Wizard, who is willing to pay outrageously to protect tiny secrets, who is so paranoid that he only has archons and golems and one level-5 city with murderous defenses. Also, this is Digdoug's story. I think, whatever happens, Digdoug will, in the end be the hero. Finally, Rob seems to be linking these donor stories with the main plot. With Lord Crush, he had Crush's book on alliances, with I suspect will end up in King Tramennis's or Parson's hands. Somewhere in this thread, and I apologize that I can't remember who, someone said that the only thing Homekey had to negotiate with is King Posbrake, but I do think they have one other asset--Digdoug. Specifically, they have his lightning trap. I think the second Charlie sees that, he'll be very interested in it; interested enough to work every extant loophole in his contract with Delkey in Homekey's advantage to acquire it. I don't think Charlie with breach his contract, at least not anymore than he did croaking the hippo-crates, but he might not be as vigorous supporting Prince Creen as he could have been. I don't know how it's going to work, but I'm thinking Homekey and King Posbrake will survive, but the cost will be Digdoug building a lighting trap at the capital of Charlescomm, probably linked to the stormiest hex in all of Erfworld. It will certainly make his murderous defenses much more so.

Of course, we all know how my last Prediction about this story went. Anyway, I promised to shut up, so I'll do that, now.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Lipkin » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:17 am

I like the idea of Charlie wanting a lightning trap. Great idea.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Xarx » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:28 am

Once he knows a lightning trap is possible, nothing stops Charlie from hiring a dirtamancer out of the magic kingdom to install one. He can do the carnymancy part himself. This is assuming that he trusts an outsider at his capital, of course. Possibly with an airtight NDA, or even some headfoolery to remove the memory, if he wants to involve a healamancer.

Actually, it would be surprising if he hadn't had a dirtamancer there at some point to upgrade the city, since it's all he's got.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby themysticalone » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:04 am

youngstormlord wrote:The king is protected from ranged attacks. Getting stabbed with a sword is not a ranged attack :cry:

Also, a horrible random thought: There's no Home key on most modern laptops. Only Del key :D


I.. .can't find a single laptop in my office that doesn't have a home key. They all have a home key. All of them are fairly new.

I think you are wrong here.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Blank » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:15 am

Lamech wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:
Lamech wrote:They have a clear line of fire with multiple stacks of archers directly at the king. As far as Prince Creen knows this is check mate. Of course the archers and captains are about to fall into a pit trap and he's about to get blasted by lightning as soon as he takes to the sky.

So Charlie is getting paid by Num Loc, Homekey and Delkey for his help in various areas. And notice how he did exactly what the contract told him too! I will say though he did break the spirit of the contracts towards both Num Loc and Homekey. I wonder how Delkey is getting screwed?


I don't think that Delkey's been screwed. Yet, anyway. If Num Loc wins this though, Charlie isn't all that far from the Homekey capitol.



I don't see how killing the king wins the battle. Won't the rest of the troops still be hostile? Creen's gonna get torn apart no matter what happens. The rest of the cities they could just tell the king got killed by mercenaries or whatever, but I don't think that that will work where they are now. Or will Charlie just return once they make the city neutral? I actually thought he'd do his fake fight then return once that contract had ended - possibly on the same turn. Maybe that was too expensive to hire out though. That is a lot of archons after all.
Units are required to act in their rulers best interest. Thus, Creen believes no one will act against him with the King hostage. Killing the King might mean Prince Creen is ripped to pieces, but it would mean the king dies and hence, they cannot strike. In effect, Checkmate. Even if you have 5 queens on the field against the other player has a pawn and a king, you can still lose.

Also Prince Creen might think they can win the fight after croaking the king. A few badly damaged golems, a caster, and a warlord (out of position) against his captains, archers and a royal warlord with a fancy sword. When he finds that the golems are more or less intact and his captains and archers have mysteriously turned into a pit of Lava, and this lightning bolt is shooting out of no where at him... well he'll probably realize his mistake.

P.S. It would be a good idea to activate the magic trap now. If Prince Creen breaks alliance he'll get a lightning bolt to the face.


You guys are forgetting a rule of the game: Cities of sides with no ruler are frozen in place, and any unit (of the side) that is not residing within a city is disbanded. [Not the exact words, but I remember that being on of the rules, forgot where it was too, though.
(If I remember correctly, it was sometime during book one, when Parson was getting to know the rules. Commented on how they become sitting ducks, or something like that.)

With this rule, it's effectively checkmate once Prosbrake is croaked.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:39 am

Blank wrote:You guys are forgetting a rule of the game: Cities of sides with no ruler are frozen in place, and any unit (of the side) that is not residing within a city is disbanded. [Not the exact words, but I remember that being on of the rules, forgot where it was too, though.
(If I remember correctly, it was sometime during book one, when Parson was getting to know the rules. Commented on how they become sitting ducks, or something like that.)

With this rule, it's effectively checkmate once Prosbrake is croaked.

Frozen unless there are enemy units in the city. So yes, they'd be pretty screwed themselves, but they could avenge their king.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Deezee » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:20 pm

Blank wrote:
You guys are forgetting a rule of the game: Cities of sides with no ruler are frozen in place, and any unit (of the side) that is not residing within a city is disbanded. [Not the exact words, but I remember that being on of the rules, forgot where it was too, though.
(If I remember correctly, it was sometime during book one, when Parson was getting to know the rules. Commented on how they become sitting ducks, or something like that.)

With this rule, it's effectively checkmate once Prosbrake is croaked.


No, cities of sides with no rulers turn neutral. That means they cannot leave or pop units, but they are still capable of defending the city from attackers (read: Prince Creen). So while Homekey would be finished as a side, they are still more than capable of exacting revenge.

The reason why Parson was so upset about it was that he was massively outnumbered and needed to split the RCC in order to win; if he became neutral the Coalition would have all the time in the world to maneuver into place before crushing the remaining defenders of the city.

It seems likely that there is some way for Prince Creen to take over Homekey instead of destroying it, if only by taking Posbrake hostage and forcing him to do whatever he wants; especially since he refers to an "orderly succession of power", which doesn't sound at all like a mad race between Delkey and Numloch to seize neutral cities once part of Home key. When his full plan becomes clear, we might learn a bit about succession rules.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby jeffseadot » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:03 pm

Do we know if a king can disband himself? I can see Posbrake trying something like that, now that he's effectively captured. Disband himself and let rulership go to the heir*, thus denying Delkey their very valuable hostage and throwing several plans into chaos. Which heir? Whichever unit is carnymanced into an heir for that turn. I don't know the limits of carnymancy, but the safest assumption about the discipline seems to be that it can do literally anything, unless explicitly proven otherwise. It seems that any prediction based on the assumption that Homekey has no heir is not going to come true.

Also, I just noticed (though it may have been pointed out already) that between Print Screen and Pause Break is Scroll Lock. Should we expect that Prince Creen and Posbrake will be separated by a scroll that "locks" units in place?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Free Radical » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:Well, early in Book 2, there was discussion of a side converting. The speculation was that if you turn a side's heir and then croak its ruler, the side would convert to that which the heir is now loyal. Still, Homekey does not possess an heir, so that isn't an option.

Technically, Homekey did have an heir, and trading the heir to Follywood for DigDoug seems about as likely to leave him still the heir as turning in another manner (unless the discussion in Book 2 was purely because they didn't know how Decrypted interacted with those rules). In any case, Dove might be able to Carnymancy up a rule break to allow an heir aligned with a different side to inherit.

If Posbrake abdicated without signing any kind of surrender contract, would Homekey then turn to Follywood's control? I can definitely imagine that counting as fulfilling Charlie's contractual obligations to Delkey (if it's phrased "force Posbrake to abdicate"), and if Charlie can get paid three times, he can get paid four times. A contract with Follywood to have Posbrake abdicate so that the side turned to them, followed by Charlie allying with them to force Delkey to retreat would be pretty clever.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Deezee » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:48 pm

jeffseadot wrote:Do we know if a king can disband himself? I can see Posbrake trying something like that, now that he's effectively captured. Disband himself and let rulership go to the heir*, thus denying Delkey their very valuable hostage and throwing several plans into chaos. Which heir? Whichever unit is carnymanced into an heir for that turn. I don't know the limits of carnymancy, but the safest assumption about the discipline seems to be that it can do literally anything, unless explicitly proven otherwise. It seems that any prediction based on the assumption that Homekey has no heir is not going to come true.

Also, I just noticed (though it may have been pointed out already) that between Print Screen and Pause Break is Scroll Lock. Should we expect that Prince Creen and Posbrake will be separated by a scroll that "locks" units in place?


I'm pretty sure they can't unless there are special circumstances; Bea needed to use the portal to disband herself. However, if it is possible to Carnymancy a heir (which seems doubtful to me), Posbrake can just get himself killed while the spell is active.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Xellos » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:37 pm

jeffseadot wrote:Also, I just noticed (though it may have been pointed out already) that between Print Screen and Pause Break is Scroll Lock. Should we expect that Prince Creen and Posbrake will be separated by a scroll that "locks" units in place?


Maybe on your keyboard. Mine has Pause and Break on separate keys, both far from Print Screen. I doubt it'd go to such extremes.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby multilis » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:10 pm

I don't think the double crossing is done.

This feel like Creen just stepped into a trap.

Strategically, Posbrake hiring Charlie to attack his side didn't make sense (as obvious prediction could be about a different attack and he was weakening himself if that was true) so either Posbrake is in on the trap or he acted stupid.

It could be that Posbrake is trying to get Creen to break terms of their alliance (and pay penalty), by making him think everything is going as planned. Next step would be get Creen to give order to fire at Posbrake, then incapacitate Creen so he can't change that order.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Lilwik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:26 pm

multilis wrote:This feel like Creen just stepped into a trap.
My gut agrees with you. We know that Posbrake is a very thoughtful ruler who doesn't mind keeping secrets from his allies and even his own units. We know that Posbrake and Dove spent a lot of time together, but what exactly did they talk about? Did Dove really think that a fake air attack might appease the spirit of Fate and save Homekey? That seems rather naive. The only real solution is to deal with Homekey's real enemies. Maybe the point of the fake air attack was always to trick the real enemy into attacking at a moment when they think Homekey is vulnerable, but in reality it's exactly when Posbrake will be best prepared for the attack. Maybe Posbrake always expected that Delkey would be the source of the attack, since there are so few possible attackers, but he kept that part secret even from Peck because if Delkey ever suspected that Homekey knew what was coming it would ruin the whole plan. Maybe Charlie never betrayed Homekey at all; maybe using up Homekey's air defenses and telling Delkey about the fake attack was all part of Posbrake's secret plan that he told to only Charlie and Dove just so that right now Creen would think that he's won, but Dove has one last trick up her sleeve, one last bit of Carnymancy to turn this whole thing around.

Maybe, but my gut has been wrong about this sort of thing so many times.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Lamech » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:06 pm

Lilwik wrote:maybe using up Homekey's air defenses and telling Delkey about the fake attack was all part of Posbrake's secret plan that he told to only Charlie and Dove just so that right now Creen would think that he's won, but Dove has one last trick up her sleeve, one last bit of Carnymancy to turn this whole thing around.

He is next to a lightning bolt generator and has the whole of his forces clumped together so they can all swim in Lava together. I don't think Posbreak needs any more tricks up his sleeve. Just a few silent orders Activate Lightning trap, ready archers, Digdoug drop the Delkey forces into Lava. Hell, the trap won't even break alliance!
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Roszlishan » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:11 pm

Lilwik wrote:
multilis wrote:This feel like Creen just stepped into a trap.
My gut agrees with you.


Although it's possible, even plausible, that Prince Creen just stepped into a trap -- it is unlikely. Prince Creen came with a stack that had been invited by Peck -- not Posbrake, and clearly was unwatned by Posbrake. Worse, the long, long conference between the Royals that included Peck rules out any kind of thoughtful post-arrival plan, and Posbrake is not one to act hurriedly.

And even more telling -- this story is Digdoug's story. Digdoug is the hero, and Digdoug hasn't set up a trap for Creen. He's set up a watchpost for Dove, and a lightning trap, and his scroll of create pit -- and all of these should figure in the solution, but for a story, the action and success has to be Digdoug's, not Posbrake's or even Dove's. Both of them can contribute, of course, but victory -- or defeat, if that's the way this story runs -- should be clearly Digdoug's.

'Cause that's the way stories work.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby (name here) » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:27 pm

Lamech wrote:
Lipkin wrote:It certainly seems like Delkey wanted Homekey to pop a royal heir so that they could remove Posbrake from power, but keep the alliance. I suspect Creen may demand that the entire side of Homekey turn to Delkey, or else Posbrake gets croaked on the spot. But I'm thinking Charlie didn't tell him what Homekey has up it's sleeve, so Charlie won't get a chance to attack, because the action will be over before turn's end. Or else Charlie will attack, and either Dove didn't tell him about the Lightning Trap and he gets chased off, or Dove DID tell him about the lightning trap, and they disable it. OR Dove faked the lightning trap.

I think Charlie has those archons ready to help the second Prince Creen asks for them. And if Prince Creen has a sudden case of lightning bolt induced croaking well... that's his fault. Probably should have paid for magical protection.


Actually, at this very moment they cannot help Creen. They've left the hex and joined Delkey's alliance, and Delkey's turn hasn't started yet, so if it comes down to a fight to the death in the tower at this very moment they won't be able to intervene. Thus comes an important question when considering how the fight will play out: was Charlie paid in advance? If he was, he's probably perfectly happy letting Creen get himself killed while his archons are sadly unable to participate by virtue of being off-turn. Otherwise, he's likely made sure Creen is going to last at least long enough for him to fulfill his contract and get paid.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Denar » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:37 pm

It all seems to be slotting in nicely together at this point:

the archers are all trained on the King - the Carnymancy is going to save him.

Digdoug will use a scroll that specifically creates a pit, but Creen is going to be immune due to his flying special.

The lightning trap can be used to fry Creen.

There are only a few things left: Creen's lightsabre, big red and ominous, so I guarantee that will be used to kill somebody. This presents two possibilities in my mind:

(a) Peck. He's non-royal, and after all that abuse, has a reason to personally engage with Creen.

(b) Bucky. She wasn't mentioned at all in this update. Creen, after losing his archers and realising that Posbrake's immune to ranged attacks, will himself try and end it. Bucky's only just announced her unrequited love for Posbrake. Time for a noble self-sacrifice, jumping from the shadows to take a lethal hit?

There's also Dove in her hidey-hole, that Digdoug -on his own prerogative- created for her specifically so she could be present during the battle. So we know she's going to pop her head out at some point. I will also point out that, to cast her spell on Digdoug, she had to physically touch him. I will presume that it was also the same for Posbrake, and at some point during the very start of turn that "no ranged" spell was applied to him. So I think she may very well have been casting something important when Digdoug noticed her Carnymancy orange glow coming from the hidey hole.

There's the returning Archons in the airspace.

There's the lesson that Digdoug (and the others) learnt at the start, which I believe to be fundamentally the most important thing about this story - that when it comes to impossible problems the solution requires: "It might not take actual Carnymancy to undo it, but more just ‘thinking like a Carnymancer.’" I think that whole card game especially was very foreshadowy (I mean, it came true for Posbrake). Digdoug's going to win with his "weakest card", something he didn't expect to win with. That may very well be the pit scroll (maybe using it in an unorthodox manner, it seemed odd wording how Digdoug was happy that he could create any environment at the bottom with it), but who knows
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby Lilwik » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:39 pm

Roszlishan wrote:Both of them can contribute, of course, but victory -- or defeat, if that's the way this story runs -- should be clearly Digdoug's.
I agree, the fact that this whole story has been following Digdoug around is a very good reason to believe that at some point he will be important. Somehow he is probably going to save the day, but I can't believe we've seen the end of Posbrake's careful planning. Posbrake planned for a betrayal from Charlie, so there's a good chance he planned for a Delkey betrayal. I just can't believe that someone who has displayed this much thoughtfulness would fall into a trap of assuming that a fake attack alone would somehow save Homekey. He must have known that Homekey has real enemies and that a real attack would happen eventually, so there must be at least one more stage to his plan. I don't know what he could be planning, but somehow Posbrake intends to deal with his real enemies, and Dove is almost certainly in on the plan.

I expect that Posbrake has a move left to make and we'll probably see it in the next update, but it won't be instantly decisive. There will be a battle and that will be Digdoug's time to show us why he's the protagonist of this story.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby bpzinn » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:50 pm

(name here) wrote:Actually, at this very moment they cannot help Creen. They've left the hex and joined Delkey's alliance, and Delkey's turn hasn't started yet, so if it comes down to a fight to the death in the tower at this very moment they won't be able to intervene. Thus comes an important question when considering how the fight will play out: was Charlie paid in advance? If he was, he's probably perfectly happy letting Creen get himself killed while his archons are sadly unable to participate by virtue of being off-turn. Otherwise, he's likely made sure Creen is going to last at least long enough for him to fulfill his contract and get paid.


For even more irony, we just saw in this update that payments are handled automagically. Charlie could legally let Prince Creen at all get wiped out because he was unable to help, and still come back on Delkeys turn, present the contract as completed on his end, and give Delkey an invoice that is automagically paid. Creen is not ruler; the side goes on without him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 17

Postby GWvsJohn » Fri Apr 25, 2014 5:03 pm

Just had a thought. What if Charlescomm croaking the Hippocrates put enough Shmuckers into the coffee for Posbrake to name an heir? I can see Creen show in his colors and croaking Posbrake only for someone (Digdoug?) to become Ruler and croak Creen.
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