Digdoug - Episode 19

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Vreejack » Wed May 07, 2014 7:34 pm

If Posbrake fell and there was no heir, why didn't Digdoug disband? Field units will disband even if there is an heir, as happened with Wanda. When Wanda was leading a column against Olive Branch and her father fell, every unit disbanded except for her own stack, commanders and stabbers alike. This leads me to believe that Homekey still exists as a side. But at some point, Digdoug was "released," either before or after the city fell.

Assuming that the portal is really gone, all it means is that Homekey no longer has a capital city. I am assuming that non-capital sites cannot have a portal. We already know that only capital sites can have capital cities. But Homekey had a lot of other cities. It is not clear if any of the were capital sites. I think not.

Quite a bit of time has passed. A lot of things may have happened. We have exactly two pieces of evidence that suggest that the Homekey side is gone: Dove is not allied with Digdoug, which could simply be something she did on her own for some reason, and Digdoug is a barbarian, which is probably not something Dove would bother to fake without a really good reason.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Lipkin » Wed May 07, 2014 7:45 pm

Vreejack wrote:If Posbrake fell and there was no heir, why didn't Digdoug disband? Field units will disband even if there is an heir, as happened with Wanda. When Wanda was leading a column against Olive Branch and her father fell, every unit disbanded except for her own stack, commanders and stabbers alike. This leads me to believe that Homekey still exists as a side. But at some point, Digdoug was "released," either before or after the city fell.

Assuming that the portal is really gone, all it means is that Homekey no longer has a capital city. I am assuming that non-capital sites cannot have a portal. We already know that only capital sites can have capital cities. But Homekey had a lot of other cities. It is not clear if any of the were capital sites. I think not.

Quite a bit of time has passed. A lot of things may have happened. We have exactly two pieces of evidence that suggest that the Homekey side is gone: Dove is not allied with Digdoug, which could simply be something she did on her own for some reason, and Digdoug is a barbarian, which is probably not something Dove would bother to fake without a really good reason.

Casters don't disband when they go barbarian in the MK.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Wed May 07, 2014 7:49 pm

Vreejack wrote:If Posbrake fell and there was no heir, why didn't Digdoug disband? Field units will disband even if there is an heir, as happened with Wanda. When Wanda was leading a column against Olive Branch and her father fell, every unit disbanded except for her own stack, commanders and stabbers alike. This leads me to believe that Homekey still exists as a side. But at some point, Digdoug was "released," either before or after the city fell.


Digdoug was in the MK at the time that Homekey fell - casters in the MK seem to be exempt from disbandment. Casters in the field may disband should their side fall or turn (unless they turn with their Ruler's consent) - Bea ordered her casters into the MK prior to her suicide, and when Jillian feigned Turning to Wanda, she said she had to go order her caster into the MK.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Lilwik » Wed May 07, 2014 7:54 pm

Vreejack wrote:If Posbrake fell and there was no heir, why didn't Digdoug disband? Field units will disband even if there is an heir, as happened with Wanda.
Those two things are very different. If there were an heir then Posbrake dying would be of no real consequence other than the loss of a rather clever king, since the heir would become the new ruler. No one disbanded when Overlord Firebaugh died in the Wanda example; the disbanding waited until the city fell, so surely it was the fall of the city that caused the disbanding. See B0E26.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Denar » Wed May 07, 2014 7:55 pm

Vreejack wrote:If Posbrake fell and there was no heir, why didn't Digdoug disband? Field units will disband even if there is an heir, as happened with Wanda. When Wanda was leading a column against Olive Branch and her father fell, every unit disbanded except for her own stack, commanders and stabbers alike. This leads me to believe that Homekey still exists as a side. But at some point, Digdoug was "released," either before or after the city fell.


Hmmm, *did* she have any commanders with her? I thought the idea of her plan was that she was taking just herself (and her uncroaked/stabbers) on a suicide mission to hurt haffaton as much as possible.

double checked and nope:

Before dawn, Wanda assembled a light pack. She would return in three turns' time, with fresh troops and hopefully fresh ideas.

...

She rode atop Funnyface, the only mount in the group. He was her favorite sawhorse, and also the only living unit in the column besides Wanda herself. His warmth and the steam of his breath were reassuring. She patted his neck often.


so it was just her uncroaked. everybody else were in the city when it fell. In fact we KNOW as well that the Overlord died, because Wanda was quickly made Heir the moment before, and become Ruler herself for a brief moment - and she still had units in the city. A few, but they all persisted after her father's death - and her stack was unaffected at this point. It was only after Haffaton had systematically killed every last unit in their last city (Delphie was still alive briefly as well after her father's demise), and her *last/only city was taken from her*, that the side of Goodminton disappeared and her her units vanished.

regardless, there's the precedent: I think it's stated somewhere, to the effect that Caster's can escape into the Magic Kingdom at least anyway, and continue without their side without a problem (well, they have a new upkeep problem). We know Marie did it, when FAQ fell. We know that Bea's casters did it as well, she sent them into the MK just before offing herself (and we've seen 2 of them already, albeit immediately grabbed by Charlie).

Furthermore, I'm going to look for it somewhere: I think we've been quite explicitly told, by Parson in the first story, that if the side's ruler falls, everyone in the city goes into a kind of "stasis", they don't disband. I think it's when he's worrying because Stanley's making his mad rush for the ruins of FAQ, and he's doomed to fail (with Charlie in the fight).

Quite a bit of time has passed. A lot of things may have happened. We have exactly two pieces of evidence that suggest that the Homekey side is gone: Dove is not allied with Digdoug, which could simply be something she did on her own for some reason, and Digdoug is a barbarian, which is probably not something Dove would bother to fake without a really good reason.


Has a lot of time passed? He hasn't had to pay upkeep yet. This is just the night following the end of Delkey's turn, isn't it? Dove had to get him into the MK and healed quickly, because presumably he had one of those incapacitations that croaks you at the start of next turn.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Lilwik » Wed May 07, 2014 8:09 pm

Denar wrote:Has a lot of time passed? He hasn't had to pay upkeep yet. This is just the night following the end of Delkey's turn, isn't it?
Homekey had a turn that should have come after Delkey's turn and we don't know of Homekey survived long enough to take its turn. If it did, then there might be no end to the possibilities for what Posbrake may have done. He might even have done something crazy like fleeing the capital and turning to Paige Downs.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Omnimancer » Wed May 07, 2014 8:11 pm

Denar wrote:Furthermore, I'm going to look for it somewhere: I think we've been quite explicitly told, by Parson in the first story, that if the side's ruler falls, everyone in the city goes into a kind of "stasis", they don't disband. I think it's when he's worrying because Stanley's making his mad rush for the ruins of FAQ, and he's doomed to fail (with Charlie in the fight).


Only units out in the field disband. Ones in cities turn neutral and go into stasis until something attacks them. The Magic Kingdom clearly doesn't count as "the field".

What's happening to Digdoug is presumably the same thing that would happen if a unit's side fell while they were visiting another side's city. They wouldn't disband because they're in a city. And they wouldn't go into stasis because they'd share the same relative time as the other occupants.

I think that surviving the fall of your side isn't a special thing only casters can do. Just casters can use portals to escape to safety and warlords cannot.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Vreejack » Wed May 07, 2014 9:10 pm

Code: Select all
Incapacitation could take a number of forms. All of them meant that you could not move, could not initiate engagement or disengage, could not personally fight or cast. Some meant that you would croak (or be dusted) if an enemy so much as struck you a single blow. Others, that you would live only until the start of your next turn, unless healed. Sometimes you were conscious, and sometimes not.


In the case of a "pin" one will survive, and will likely be unpinned, as Tramennis was when he had been hit with pink gum or Sylvia would have been when the dwagon on top of her de-popped. Wanda had been incapacitated to the point of croaking on the next turn, though she was conscious. I suspect that a coup de gras would require unconsciousness.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Vreejack » Wed May 07, 2014 9:22 pm

So I was wrong about the Wanda incident. Her extra units disbanded when the capital fell (did they have any other cities?) and a barbarian may only have one stack. What would have happened if all her units had been in the same stack? They had no upkeep, after all.

And apparently casters will survive the loss of their side? Is that because they are in the MK, or is it because they had already been set free, or is it because all commanders become barbarians? From Bea's story it seems that field commanders disband with other units if a ruler croaks without heir, so did her mages survive because mancers are special? Or because they were in the MK? Or because she had set them free? There wouldn't have been any point in freeing her other units, as the point was to get them away from Wanda.

Also, in response to another comment, I do not think a ruler can simply step down unless there is someone to transfer the crown to, so Bea needed to croak herself for certain without letting any of her commanders discover her plan.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Arky » Wed May 07, 2014 9:31 pm

The simplest explanation is that with the contract concluded, Charlie's Archons returned and croaked Posbrake for the bounty.

The most melodramatic explanation is that, with Posbrake managing to survive Creen's attack thanks to the unexpected actions of Doug and Dove, Bucky (who we all suspect of turning traitor and feeding info to Creen) turned and croaked Posbrake out of spite.

The comedy capers explanation would be that Posbrake got a bit too enthusiastic about trying out Creen's laser sword for himself and accidentally decapitated himself.

The magical explanation would be that Dove's Carnymancy did a Sylvia on Posbrake for him to survive the battle, but the downside got to him much much quicker than it got to Sylvia. It could be as simple as an Archon taking a ridiculous long-range shot that shouldn't have been within a hundred yards of reaching Posbrake somehow crit him in the heart as payback for the way he survived the arrows earlier.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Omnimancer » Wed May 07, 2014 9:41 pm

Vreejack wrote:And apparently casters will survive the loss of their side? Is that because they are in the MK, or is it because they had already been set free, or is it because all commanders become barbarians? From Bea's story it seems that field commanders disband with other units if a ruler croaks without heir, so did her mages survive because mancers are special? Or because they were in the MK? Or because she had set them free? There wouldn't have been any point in freeing her other units, as the point was to get them away from Wanda.


I think all units survive the end of their side, if they're not in the field. MK doesn't count as being out in the field.

The reason Queen Bea saved her casters and nobody else is that casters could use the portal to escape, while other units could not. She probably would have tried to send other units to Transylvito or Jetstone cities so they could go barbarian or join another side, but there wasn't time.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby name lips » Wed May 07, 2014 10:57 pm

Is it possible for:

a) Homekey to fall or in some other way no longer be a Side,
AND
b) Posbrake to still be alive,
AND
c) Digdoug to be a barbarian?


I know he could have possibly surrendered to Numlock, but if that was the case, I'd expect all Homekey units to instantly turn into Numlock units, instead of going Barbarian.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Wed May 07, 2014 11:09 pm

name lips wrote:Is it possible for:

a) Homekey to fall or in some other way no longer be a Side,
AND
b) Posbrake to still be alive,
AND
c) Digdoug to be a barbarian?


I know he could have possibly surrendered to Numlock, but if that was the case, I'd expect all Homekey units to instantly turn into Numlock units, instead of going Barbarian.



Remember when Banhammer was about to turn to haffaton? He needed his units to turn before he did, otherwise they would have become barbarians...
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Lilwik » Wed May 07, 2014 11:31 pm

╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Remember when Banhammer was about to turn to haffaton? He needed his units to turn before he did, otherwise they would have become barbarians...
You are talking about B0E60. It's strange that he would say it that way, since it seems like they are all already barbarians. Wanda became a barbarian when she lost her capital. Jillian became a barbarian when Faq's cities were destroyed by Stanley. Given both those examples, it doesn't make sense that Banhammer should be able to lose his cities and not be a barbarian. Perhaps being a barbarian is more of an attitude than a technical condition. Banhammer doesn't consider himself or his casters to be barbarians because in his mind Faq still exists, even without cities, while in the other two examples Wanda and Jillian both gave up on their sides even though the sides still existed mechanically. Maybe the meaning of "barbarian" is purely cultural in Erfworld and it has no mechanical implications.

Also, is Banhammer forgetting that he has an heir? Surely if Banhammer turned to Haffaton then Jillian would have become ruler of Faq and no one would need to become a barbarian. Perhaps Banhammer would consider a Faq ruled by Jillian to be a barbarian side just because of Jillian's attitude.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Keighvin1 » Thu May 08, 2014 2:39 am

We know some kind of formal side existed, since Wanda turned to Faq before they held any new cities. It seems to me that we need a better understanding of whether Jillian post-Stanley operated as just a band of mercenaries, or if she was basically a small mobile Kingdom until she retook Faq. I suppose it could have something to do with whether there are other command units in the group; as far as I can remember, Jillian had only non-humanoid units, and Wanda had one uncroaked commander in her stack.

So now I'm wondering if Wanda ever technically became a barbarian, or was simply a landless overlord until being captured by Haffaton in a similar fashion to Banhammer.

Edit: As to Jillian being an heir, since we're not sure of the mechanics in this situation anyway, it seems like without any cities of any kind, succession could be interrupted. It's actually an interesting set of circumstances we've never seen in the comic. There has been succession with cities and a Capital, just a Capital which is then lost, when a Capital is lost followed by the remaining cities, and when a Capital is lost/in rebellion/occupied/whatever situation the Capital was in when Stanley became overlord while keeping other cities.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am

Lilwik wrote:
╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Remember when Banhammer was about to turn to haffaton? He needed his units to turn before he did, otherwise they would have become barbarians...
You are talking about B0E60. It's strange that he would say it that way, since it seems like they are all already barbarians. Wanda became a barbarian when she lost her capital. Jillian became a barbarian when Faq's cities were destroyed by Stanley. Given both those examples, it doesn't make sense that Banhammer should be able to lose his cities and not be a barbarian. Perhaps being a barbarian is more of an attitude than a technical condition. Banhammer doesn't consider himself or his casters to be barbarians because in his mind Faq still exists, even without cities, while in the other two examples Wanda and Jillian both gave up on their sides even though the sides still existed mechanically. Maybe the meaning of "barbarian" is purely cultural in Erfworld and it has no mechanical implications.

Also, is Banhammer forgetting that he has an heir? Surely if Banhammer turned to Haffaton then Jillian would have become ruler of Faq and no one would need to become a barbarian. Perhaps Banhammer would consider a Faq ruled by Jillian to be a barbarian side just because of Jillian's attitude.


Thank you for finding the exact page and for bringing up all those good points. Indeed, there seems to be quite a lot of mechanics we do not understand fully here. Hopefully, in the gaps of our knowledge there will be enough place for Posbreak to find an exploit and to still be alive somehow after what we read.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby 0beron » Thu May 08, 2014 9:55 am

Lilwik wrote:
╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:Remember when Banhammer was about to turn to haffaton? He needed his units to turn before he did, otherwise they would have become barbarians...
You are talking about B0E60. It's strange that he would say it that way, since it seems like they are all already barbarians. Wanda became a barbarian when she lost her capital. Jillian became a barbarian when Faq's cities were destroyed by Stanley. Given both those examples, it doesn't make sense that Banhammer should be able to lose his cities and not be a barbarian. Perhaps being a barbarian is more of an attitude than a technical condition. Banhammer doesn't consider himself or his casters to be barbarians because in his mind Faq still exists, even without cities, while in the other two examples Wanda and Jillian both gave up on their sides even though the sides still existed mechanically. Maybe the meaning of "barbarian" is purely cultural in Erfworld and it has no mechanical implications.
Also, is Banhammer forgetting that he has an heir? Surely if Banhammer turned to Haffaton then Jillian would have become ruler of Faq and no one would need to become a barbarian. Perhaps Banhammer would consider a Faq ruled by Jillian to be a barbarian side just because of Jillian's attitude.
I think we actually have an explanation. As clearly demonstrated, Loj and Jillian still had the authority to issue orders, so though the side no longer "exists", the command structure of Natural Thinkamancy remains. If however Loj turns, that structure would presumably dissolve, and the former units would now be free to act as they wish as true Barbarians...and given how he knows some of them object to the idea, he doesn't want that. He wants to try ordering them to turn while he still has authority, rather than rely on his ability to convince them once they're free. Actually, this was probably Olive's idea, since she's clever and manipulative enough to realize that.
Given that there is no "side" to inherit, I suspect that Jillian would not actually replace Banhammer as the Barbarian Queen. And even if she does, all the more reason that Olive would convince Loj into not allowing that, since then not only would Jillian be free to run, but she'd also be able to freely order the casters and defeat Olive.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Mithiwithi » Thu May 08, 2014 1:46 pm

NYbear wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Good guess, plus, they have Creen as a bargaining chip.

"We'll surrender and turn, plus give you Delkey's chief warlord and heir, if you come save us."

The only question is, how would they get the message to them? Charlie is all set to attack, I doubt he'd be accommodating.


Its a moot point, Numlock ended their turn already. They have no move and cannot bring any reinforcements to Homekey's capital even if they wanted to agree to a surrender deal.


If Charlie wanted to be cooperative, he could break alliance with Delkey and ally with Homekey, whose natural turn came after Delkey's once the Delkey-Homekey alliance was broken.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 08, 2014 4:00 pm

0beron wrote:I think we actually have an explanation. As clearly demonstrated, Loj and Jillian still had the authority to issue orders, so though the side no longer "exists", the command structure of Natural Thinkamancy remains. If however Loj turns, that structure would presumably dissolve, and the former units would now be free to act as they wish as true Barbarians...and given how he knows some of them object to the idea, he doesn't want that.
That seems unlikely. If the command structure still exists, then why wouldn't the heir still act as the heir? More importantly, Jillian confirmed that she was still the heir of a Faq without cities in B0E52. Specifically, she knew that Faq had lost its cities, but even so Jillian knew that Banhammer survived by nothing more than her own failure to become a ruler. That implies that even if Banhammer had escaped the fall of the capital and been croaked in the field, Jillian would still get ruler senses that would allow her to know Banhammer had died.

0beron wrote:Given that there is no "side" to inherit, I suspect that Jillian would not actually replace Banhammer as the Barbarian Queen. And even if she does, all the more reason that Olive would convince Loj into not allowing that, since then not only would Jillian be free to run, but she'd also be able to freely order the casters and defeat Olive.
I agree, it would be a very bad thing for Olive if Jillian suddenly became ruler of Faq, and Banhammer knew that. I think that's probably what he meant by "become barbarians." It's not just about whether you have cities or not; to be a barbarian you need to stop being civilized. In that sense Banhammer could never become a barbarian no matter what happens to his side while Jillian was almost a barbarian from the day she popped.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 19

Postby Mithiwithi » Thu May 08, 2014 4:41 pm

Mithiwithi wrote:
Lipkin wrote:The only question is, how would they get the message to them? Charlie is all set to attack, I doubt he'd be accommodating.


Charlie has their own contract with Delkey, yes - "to assure an orderly transfer of power" - but how that affects Charlie's cost/benefit calculation depends vitally on what the terms of that contract are. And to sweeten the deal, Numloch still has the funds on hand for the bounty they have on Posbrake. And Charlie's broken a contract before, when he thinks he stands to gain more from it than paying out the forfeiture clause...

Incidentally, my scenario still includes plenty of fodder for character conflict. How do you think Digdoug is going to react when a representative from Numloch comes to offer him a job? How much would they tell him about why they wanted to hire him - and how much would he believe?


Ohh... I just had another thought. It's a bit far-fetched, but since my original speculation was mostly "hoping for a good end" excessive optimism in the first place...

Best end for everyone of Homekey: The best that Posbrake can get in his surrender deal to Numloch is that he, Bucky, and other key units already in Homekey were not to be disbanded for X turns - he didn't have enough pull to get Numloch to agree to a Dirtamancer's upkeep as well. Digdoug is left as a barbarian Dirtamancer, and over the tens or even hundreds of turns, he stops blaming Dove for Homekey's fall and they eventually fall in love.

Only then do they get a representative of Numloch come to them and say he's been asked to offer them a permanent job, and the new Chief Warlord asked for them by name. You see, it took that long for Posbrake's brilliant but unconventional strategic mind to work his way up the Numloch ranks to the point where he could authorize the budget for hiring casters... and perhaps almost as long for Bucky's feelings to finally get through to him.

Perhaps a little too tidy, but...
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