Digdoug - Episode 20

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Kaed » Wed May 14, 2014 5:08 am

Personally, I don't think we'll ever find out what happened to homekey, or if we do it will be much later. This story is not about Homekey, it's about Digdoug. This has been evident ever since he had a budding romance that ended in tragedy. He might care about what happened to his old side, but that doesn't mean it's actually important to the story, it's just an aspect of his character - much like his horror at the idea that few casters help the people on the Short Pier, without considering that everyone has their own problems to deal with, this isn't a free meal out here.

Personally, I'm intrigued by the idea of him and Dove being Fated to meet, or Fate otherwise being involved here. Perhaps there was a Prediction that Digdoug will defect should he ever go into the magic kingdom, or that his side would fall should he do so. That would make sense in a way, as he was so strictly forbidden access that he was ordered to not even think about it.

In other news I suspect that the Short Pier is often used as recruiting station for Charlie, actually. It's been stated he often hires from the Magic Kingdom, and he has a very good reputation among the casters. Saving someone who would have disbanded by giving them work is a good way to make friends. He has exhibited the ability to pick up psychic requests for assistance from literally anywhere in the world, and I don't expect that most people about to disband are exactly calm about it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Mrtyuh » Wed May 14, 2014 5:15 am

silverblob5 wrote:It was never about the job, never about Homekey or Delkey or Charlie or any of them. It was about getting a Dirtamancer under her thumb, in the Magic Kingdom. She'd be set for life.

Book 2 - Text 1 wrote:Dirtamancy was among the most rare and useful disciplines here. Everyone needed a wall built, a garden tilled, a well dug, a foundation excavated. There were no city sites; construction was a manual industry. Casters used Rands, a barter credit for exchanging goods and services, so as not to give Moneymancers all of the power. But though he usually took only the minimum Rands for his services that the other Caster would accept, he couldn't help becoming a filthy rich rock star here.

I suspect Dove is planning on taking a commission on the chores on her list. I also somehow doubt she'll only accept the barest minimum. If she can keep Digdoug indebted to and dependent upon her, she truly would be set for life.

Keighvin1 wrote:I'm torn on this, on the one hand I want Dove to be sincere in wanting to help Digdoug and being friendly with him, and on the other it makes perfect sense for her to see an easy mark and use him for her own benefit.

I would just really like to see a Carny who's not semi-evil.

I don't think Dove is being malicious; she's simply practicing rational egoism. She isn't motivated to hurt others but simply to accrue the most benefit for herself. Her explanation concerning her friend and the Long Walk could come straight from Ayn Rand, herself.

The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism wrote:Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. This is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: No. Altruism says: Yes.


It's important to keep some Rand in mind, especially in the Magic Kingdom.

name lips wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Beeskee wrote:Holy boop, Rands can pay upkeep? How does that work?
That's a new mystery! I've often wondered how Rands work. It always seemed like they must be regulated by some authority that gives them value, just like any Stupidworld currency, but now it is obvious where the value of Rands comes from and we have an obvious drain on the supply of Rands; one Rand disappears for every caster in the Magic Kingdom every day, so the same number of Rands needs to appear somewhere every day on average or the Magic Kingdom would run out of Rands.

It's bizarre that one Rand appears in the Magic Kingdom for each caster every day, but for some reason the Rands aren't given directly to the casters. If a Rand were given to each caster each day then no caster would ever run out. Who gets the Rands and why?

There must be some way to convert schmuckers to rands. Otherwise, why would MK casters be so keen to find paying work outside the MK?

On the other hand, we know that caster require a number of schmuckers each turn in upkeep that varies depending on their level. High level casters require more schmuckers. Yet, in the MK, it looks like your upkeep is exactly one Rand no matter what level you are.

We may be overthinking this. The simplest explanation is that the Magic Kingdom has a bank. There are basically two types of money: fiat money and commodity money. Fiat money only has value because a government says it has value. Commodity money is backed by something, such as gold. It is probable that Rands are backed by Schmuckers. Schmuckers are kept in the bank, and the bank issues Rands based on them. Individual casters can have accounts with the bank. Rands can have a variable value, reacting to inflationary pressures, or they may be set to a Schmucker standard. Another way to think of it is that Rands are checks tied to a checking account.

ManaCaster wrote:With there are so many casters waiting to disband, you'd think sides without casters, like the So-be-it Union, would post offerings to let them turn. Is it taboo to just join a new side?

Digdoug - Episode 8 wrote:“I was kiddiiing,” said the woman, grinning and touching his shoulder lightly. Her skin was ash white, but her face was pretty. She stood close to him, and that was quite nice. “I can tell you ain’t free.”

“Free?”

She rolled her eyes, but held on to her smile. “Barbarian. Not my favorite word, okay?"

Some people value their freedom above all else. I've known people who've lost their job lose pretty much everything because they won't go out and get a job at the local fast food place while their looking for a new one. Such a job would be demeaning or beneath them or violate some principles. People can be pretty stubborn at times and not act in their own best interests. I had harbored some suspicions since Dove used that term that she has zero desire to join a side, despite whatever she may have told Digdoug about how wonderful it is to have a ruler that values you. She may see herself as free, and that makes her superior to the slaves that are subject to a ruler's whims. While I won't make a blanket statement concerning all barbarian casters and it may not even apply to Dove herself, there probably are many casters that feel that way, and they would rather disband than join a side.

Lilwik wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:I was just thinking, since this is likely the end of Digdoug 1 (based on there being a picture), I'm now really hoping that Rob schedules a break or 2 to post text stories *cough*Digdoug2*cough* and work on keeping the comic buffer going.
This can't be the end. This is no kind of conclusion. Nothing has been resolved! Maybe the presence of the picture indicates that the two Digdoug stories are just going to run together with no separation between them.

I'm more convinced than ever that Dove is playing some sort of game. She said everything is a show, and I think that means that nothing she does is what it appears to be. Digdoug still doubts that what Dove says is true, and now Digdoug is being called a mark. Eventually we're going to find out what is really going on, and then we will finally have all the answers. Then the story can end.

Rob has indeed stated that this is indeed the end of Part 1 of Digdoug. Next, he will do another backer story, Lord Crush length or shorter. After that, Book 3 will start and Book 0 will resume. It very well may be a while before we see Part 2. These stories are from the Year of the Dwagon Kickstarter. It took over two years for these to be published. There were four backers who pledged for stories. We'll have three of them after the next one, but there is still one backer who may be waiting for theirs (although those stories were originally private, and the backers had to give permission for them to be posted, so the fourth backer may have opted to not have their story posted). From the most recent Kickstarter, there are three of the shorter Canonized stories, three of the Novella-length stories, one of which is the sequel to Digdoug and another is Steve Jackson, not to mention eight or more Roll up a Character sheets, all of which will be posted on the site. While it is probably safe to say that Doug Molla has contributed more than anyone else to Erfworld, that doesn't necessarily mean he'll be at the front of the line whenever Rob is able to work on these stories again. Given his commitment to a twice a week update schedule once Book 3 launches, it may be a while before we see any of those stories for a while. The estimated delivery for the stories listed on the Kickstarter page is April to August 2015. In other words, it's a cliffhanger; we need to patiently await the sequel.

ManaCaster wrote:
╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:With there are so many casters waiting to disband, you'd think sides without casters, like the So-be-it Union, would post offerings to let them turn. Is it taboo to just join a new side?

Well, solving the Magic Kingdom's resource limitations opens up a really good option for Parson to win himself into the Magic Kingdom's good graces. Can't hold a grudge against the hand that feeds you. In fact, really, he's going to have to solve that problem soon anyway. The Great Minds can only devote so many of their own resources to the cause after all, and Parson really needs as many master-class Thinkamancers as he can get.



If you don't have a caster it might be hard to post an offering on MK's billboard... not having a caster to post it...

This looks dangerously like a vicious cycle...

There are options, a few of which were mentioned in Digdoug's story. Plus, in the So-be-it example, the entire alliance did have a couple casters between all 4 sides. If they were so inclined, they could have sent one of them to wait at Short Pier and offer to let them join.

The So-Be-It Union probably isn't the best example. That is an alliance designed around the concept that you keep expenses below income. Unless there is a pressing need for a caster, there is no reason to increase overhead. Even with their existence threatened by Bullyclub, they were thinking of short-term rentals, not buying. Now, a Moneymancer might be useful to them, but there may not be any available or desperate enough. We've seen that certain types of casters have more prestige than others and that some are looked down upon. There may be a great demand for Moneymancers, and any that wish to join a side may take their pick. Other casters, such as Carnies, my find their services shunned and have a very difficult time finding a side willing to take them.

mortissimus wrote:But objects can pass through the portals, so throwing a note in there with "need caster, will pay upkeep" could work. In fact, I wonder why no desperate casters have taken to popping their heads in at random portals and offering their services.

As soon as the caster steps through the portal, that side will know that an enemy unit has entered their garrison. If they encounter unled units, those units will auto-engage and croak them. It seems like a very risky move. If the caster tossed a note through the portal, who knows how long it would be before a unit found it. Unless the side has casters that travel to the Magic Kingdom regularly, their Portal Room may be little more than a storage closet, like Homekey's. A barbarian caster desperate for upkeep can't afford to wait for someone to stumble upon their note. As for a side hiring a caster that way, it could work, but you have no idea who might find your note and what they'd do with it. If a caster from an enemy side found it, you just gave them valuable intel.

My2Cents wrote:Short Pier, otherwise known as Charlies Recruiting Station.
One of the thinkamancers probably ended up there, then sold their soul to Charlie.

That seems plausible. If there is a traitor among the Great Minds, my money would be on the one with the hair curlers. First, she reacted immediately when Parson mentioned that Charlie was a Carny. Second, I can see her hair curlers being some sort of broadcast equipment that can transmit through the temple. It would fit for a tin-foil hat theory.

Anyway, Rob, if you read this, thanks for the wonderful story. dmolla, if you read this, thanks for your generosity and allowing Rob to share this with us.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Frogpop » Wed May 14, 2014 5:32 am

Lipkin wrote:If smuckers could be converted into rands by any caster, instead of just by Moneymancers, then that would solve the issue, wouldn't it?


But that would raise the issue of what other work is there in the MK for an independent Moneymancer to make their upkeep each turn. I think it's likely that Moneymancers are the only ones who can convert shmuckers into rands, and are happy to do so.. for a small cut off the top. OR, even if other Casters can convert shmuckers to rands, no one ever does because the Moneymancers can so it much more efficiently.

Dove could be playing Doug, the Carnies could be assuming she's playing him because that is what Carnies expect other Carnies to do, or Dove could have told them she's playing him in order to protect Doug.


This. We need to wait until we have more information.

For now, I think the use of "mark" is literal in addition to the carnie/conman slang. Carnies probably have a way of marking/tagging their marks/targets so that other Carnies will keep their hands off ..or they'll at least know who they're pissing off by interfering. It's hard to pull a long-con (or even a medium one) if your mark can't even make it to your vardo without getting completely fleeced en route. So, Doug is marked/tagged, but is Dove conning him or conning the other conmen? Enquiring minds want to know, and will find out very slowly over the course of several weeks. ;)
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby WurmD » Wed May 14, 2014 5:43 am

Code: Select all
"Schuckers can probably be converted into Rands"


If this would be true, I don't see atm why would anyone do that instead of just using Schmuckers.
This would also probably defeat the point of Rands (Someone: "We don't use Schmuckers so not to give the Moneymancers the advantage over everyone")

@Rob: Was paying upkeep with Rands a well thought-out decision? :)
Anyway, loved the story dearly, even cried once :')

Thanks dmolla, for sharing it with us
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby SandroTheMaster » Wed May 14, 2014 6:11 am

Lilwik wrote:Erfworld has "more than two hundred" sides


That's only sides that have casters, right? A side only gets a portal when it gets a caster, and as we've seem there are lots of smaller sides without casters, since casters have high upkeep. The So-be-it-union had a ratio of 2 sides per caster (and Bullyclub didn't seem to have one either), and we know they were small sides since one of them could get away with only having two cities (two very large cities, but only two nonetheless).

It seems to me only large sides can actually have the luxury to afford casters. Transilvito, Jetstone and Gobwin Knob are very large sides (at least Gobwin Knob is implied to have been a very large side before Book 1 started) and yet each seem to only have a handful of casters. Goodminton had 3 but we can assume it was a particularly caster-blessed side. As was FAQ with its 3 cities almost entirely devoted to pay the upkeep of its several casters.

As we can see, Homekey only had Digdoug, and that's because they traded away a heir for him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Frogpop » Wed May 14, 2014 6:11 am

WurmD wrote:
Code: Select all
"Schuckers can probably be converted into Rands"


If this would be true, I don't see atm why would anyone do that instead of just using Schmuckers.

Because the cost of one rand might be lower than your upkeep in shmuckers. Doug's upkeep is 160 shmuckers. Higher level casters presumedly have higher upkeep costs, but a rand is a rand is a rand.

Rands might also circumvent purse size rules.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Deezee » Wed May 14, 2014 6:59 am

This is mostly just a thought exercise, but there's a lot Digdoug could do if he's offended by the Long Walk. Sizemore could afford to pay Janis 12 extra rands on a single Flower Power lesson *in which he didn't learn anything) just because he was feeling nice, and he explicitly mentions taking minimum pay for his services every time and only is in the Magic Kingdom every few turns and thus has fewer opportunities to earn Rands. If a Dirtamancer who lived full time in the Magic Kingdom and was making full pay for his work wanted to, he could easily spare a couple Rands each day to rescue people on the Long Walk. It might even be good business; if enough people owe you, at least one of them will be able to pay back when you are in need.

Of course, there's probably some good reason why this wouldn't work. Digdoug (at least to me) seems lower level than Sizemore, and there might be a lot more than one caster on the walk at a time on most days. Still, there might be a lot a "filthy rich rock star" could do.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Free Radical » Wed May 14, 2014 7:59 am

SandroTheMaster wrote:That's only sides that have casters, right? A side only gets a portal when it gets a caster

I don't think I remember seeing anything implying this. Are you sure that's actually true?

SandroTheMaster wrote:It seems to me only large sides can actually have the luxury to afford casters.

It's specifically noted that sides tend to get a caster instead of one of the first few warlords they pop, which implies most sides have at least one caster if they don't get that caster killed.

When Jillian razed Progrock, "The Queen felt her treasury jump by more than 40,000 Shmuckers. Not bad. Her side's entire upkeep, including the new units, would be secure now for eight or ten turns at least.", indicating new Faq's upkeep per turn is in the region of at least 4,000-5,000 per turn (with how much higher it could be depending on how much she already had in her treasury). If Dove's upkeep of 75 per turn or DigDoug's upkeep of 160 per turn are indicative of low- and mid-level casters, they don't seem to be a big enough fraction of her upkeep to preclude even small sides keeping the small number of casters that usually seem to pop.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Lamech » Wed May 14, 2014 9:07 am

Free Radical wrote:
SandroTheMaster wrote:That's only sides that have casters, right? A side only gets a portal when it gets a caster

I don't think I remember seeing anything implying this. Are you sure that's actually true?

SandroTheMaster wrote:It seems to me only large sides can actually have the luxury to afford casters.

It's specifically noted that sides tend to get a caster instead of one of the first few warlords they pop, which implies most sides have at least one caster if they don't get that caster killed.

When Jillian razed Progrock, "The Queen felt her treasury jump by more than 40,000 Shmuckers. Not bad. Her side's entire upkeep, including the new units, would be secure now for eight or ten turns at least.", indicating new Faq's upkeep per turn is in the region of at least 4,000-5,000 per turn (with how much higher it could be depending on how much she already had in her treasury). If Dove's upkeep of 75 per turn or DigDoug's upkeep of 160 per turn are indicative of low- and mid-level casters, they don't seem to be a big enough fraction of her upkeep to preclude even small sides keeping the small number of casters that usually seem to pop.
If casters get replaced banishing them might be a way to get another draw.

If the long walk is true, its probably more a despair thing than inability to find work. The casters don't get work because they don't look for work. Secondly, its probably a common recruiting place for clever sides. I doubt those casters all disband.

And Digdoug is being scammed hard. If the Doc thought that repairing the pump payed for the healing, what is Dove paying for said pump? Or all the other carnies? That's Digdoug's pump. Hell, even with just Dove and Doc it should be twice a healing spell. Several rands at least.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Omnimancer » Wed May 14, 2014 9:27 am

Mrtyuh wrote:Some people value their freedom above all else. I've known people who've lost their job lose pretty much everything because they won't go out and get a job at the local fast food place while their looking for a new one. Such a job would be demeaning or beneath them or violate some principles. People can be pretty stubborn at times and not act in their own best interests. I had harbored some suspicions since Dove used that term that she has zero desire to join a side, despite whatever she may have told Digdoug about how wonderful it is to have a ruler that values you. She may see herself as free, and that makes her superior to the slaves that are subject to a ruler's whims. While I won't make a blanket statement concerning all barbarian casters and it may not even apply to Dove herself, there probably are many casters that feel that way, and they would rather disband than join a side.


I also think loyalty mechanics might come into play, making casters unwilling to swear to sides they feel no loyalty to.

That makes sense simply as a game mechanic. Casters and other barbarians are supposed to be the expensive high paid mercenaries that sides can turn to in times of need. The MK exists as a way for rulers to trade shmuckers for spells. It wouldn't be balanced if you could just talk casters into working for you permanently for nothing but upkeep.

Loyalty may not be all powerful though. It probably is possible for free casters to turn sometimes. But I think it makes sense if barbarian casters are mentally influenced to prefer disbanding to joining whatever side will take them.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby SandroTheMaster » Wed May 14, 2014 9:29 am

Free Radical wrote:When Jillian razed Progrock, "The Queen felt her treasury jump by more than 40,000 Shmuckers. Not bad. Her side's entire upkeep, including the new units, would be secure now for eight or ten turns at least.", indicating new Faq's upkeep per turn is in the region of at least 4,000-5,000 per turn (with how much higher it could be depending on how much she already had in her treasury). If Dove's upkeep of 75 per turn or DigDoug's upkeep of 160 per turn are indicative of low- and mid-level casters, they don't seem to be a big enough fraction of her upkeep to preclude even small sides keeping the small number of casters that usually seem to pop.



That's 4000-5000 for Jillian's army. One that's full of gwiffons, megalogwifs (what was it? 6-8?), high level warlords and knights... not to count all all the dozens of units she captured and had to pay the upkeep for, and the likely hundreds of units she still had in garrison. I'd say 160 Schmuckers would be on the high end of upkeep costs here. Considering a recruit Archon is 200 schmuckers and Archons are high premium units. Especially because Dove proposed the 75 Schmuckers like it was already accounting the decrease in upkeep for feeding her (wasn't it the whole point of food in Erfworld? To decrease upkeep?)

We know DigDoug is pretty low too. Posbrake avoided sending him to any form of conflict because he was too valuable and too useless for Follywood. But in the end we still have too little info on schmuckers, but I always pictured infantry to cost about 10 upkeep, knights around 50 and warlords on 100 (that's for level 1 recruits). But yeah, these values are completely out of my ass. Just spitballing here, but the impression I always got is that casters are a very rare and valuable commodity. And not to count that certain sides actively abhor magic and think of it as cheating opposed to proper tactics and strategy. I'm just saying, I have lots of reasons to think the 200+ portals aren't indicative of all sides on Erfworld.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 14, 2014 9:47 am

Two observations:

1) "Dove's Mark" - Carnymancers might be able to 'mark' targets with a sign that's visible to other carnymancers. D&D has a 'Wizard's Mark' spell, which does something similar, so this may be one of the dual-use word puns that Rob is so fond of.

2) Am I the only one that thought that the 'Sargent/York' spell is kind of a Dick spell?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Keldaria » Wed May 14, 2014 10:22 am

Beeskee wrote:Holy boop, Rands can pay upkeep? How does that work? :D


I'm starting to think that "Rands" are simply put as rounds of paid upkeep for a given barbarian caster. I suspect that they can be bought in bulk for a discount and sold off if necessary for a penalty. So when casters offer X rands they are offering to purchase X rounds of upkeep at the casters given rate.

I feel a discount for buying rands in bulk as it would make sense, since you can usually get a better rate buying anything in bulk, and its not uncommon for any game to offer a 10% discount on purchases of multiples. Such a bulk purchase discount would give purpose to buying these in advance rather than 1 at a time, as you would need them. I also feel the ability to sell rands off at a penalty (say 50% value) would make sense because it would allow casters to liquidate rounds of upkeep if necessary to seek the benefits of having additional cash on hand when needed, to purchase rands for other casters as part of a deal for instance.

To me this sort of system would make sense as it wouldn't encourage novice casters to sell their rands to master class casters for profit since it doesn't take as much upkeep to cover a novice vs a master class and rands otherwise would be more valuable to master class casters.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Sir Shadow » Wed May 14, 2014 10:57 am

I see you guys talking a lot about rands and such, but I just wanted to say that Rands CAN'T be tied to Schmuckers in any way because then Moneymancers would be able to manipulate them far too much.

I know this was stated at one point in the comic, but I can't for the life of me find where... I'm pretty certain it was Maggy that said it... or maybe it was in one of Parson's Klogs.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby kiyote » Wed May 14, 2014 11:06 am

Mrtyuh wrote:I don't think Dove is being malicious; she's simply practicing rational egoism. She isn't motivated to hurt others but simply to accrue the most benefit for herself. Her explanation concerning her friend and the Long Walk could come straight from Ayn Rand, herself.

The Virtue of Selfishness: A New Concept of Egoism wrote:Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. This is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: No. Altruism says: Yes.


It's important to keep some Rand in mind, especially in the Magic Kingdom.


I know that Rand herself would disagree with me if she were still alive, but I always used this as a reason why institutions like welfare and nationalized healthcare are a good idea. You don't give a dime to a beggar because you want to be nice, you give it to them because you're betting on the idea that they will return more than that dime to society at large. If you're just dropping dimes into people's cans as you pass them, you're probably not investing that money right, but a larger system spreads out that risk, and maximizes the chance of a return through the economy of scale. Most people welfare gives money to will squander it, but the few who succeed will pay back, socially, more than what was given to those who wasted it away.

What it also says, though, on the micro-scale, is that you're not a bad person if you decide not to help someone who is unwilling to try to help themselves. You have a friend who keeps borrowing money from you, and shows no attempt at trying to find a job, it's not ethically wrong of you to eventually decide to stop giving him money, even if he is using that money to buy food. I think that's what Dove is saying here.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Keldaria » Wed May 14, 2014 11:20 am

Sir Shadow wrote:I see you guys talking a lot about rands and such, but I just wanted to say that Rands CAN'T be tied to Schmuckers in any way because then Moneymancers would be able to manipulate them far too much.

I know this was stated at one point in the comic, but I can't for the life of me find where... I'm pretty certain it was Maggy that said it... or maybe it was in one of Parson's Klogs.


Its impossible not to tie them in some ways to money, unless schmuckers can not be used by barbarian casters for upkeep at all, at which point why would they do services for empires in any meaningful way. If they are a completely separate form of currency then at the very least they would still be bought and sold among casters for schmuckers. If nothing else novice casters requiring less upkeep would be selling rands to master level casters for their upkeep+.

Moneymancers aren't all powerful, they have limits to their power and they don't just generate cash out of thin air, otherwise why would they need to do anything but print the money they need to pay for their own upkeep, or to buy the rands they need for upkeep? Moneymancers are more or less the bankers of erfworld, you need someone to your empires treasury into form of payment that another empire can use.. well their your man, you need generate interest on your treasury so that it grows? they do that too. You want them to print money, well then you better have a thinkamancer and carneymancer to form a link that can break the basic rules of moneymancy. At its most basic form, for a moneymancer to be effective, they would need access to money, just like a dirtamancer wouldn't be effective in the air and a dittomancer without something to duplicate and a croakamancer without dead things to animate. So while moneymancers wouldn't be able to directly impact rands because its not money, they could still impact their schumuckers and buy what they need one way or another.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Keighvin1 » Wed May 14, 2014 11:39 am

I got to thinking after reading the debate, maybe rands are directly tied to shmuckers, but in a way that makes moneymancers not superior to other casters? So we know casters have a purse limit, a hard limit on how many shmuckers they can have. We also know that moneymancers can convert that money to gems for non purse storage.

So what if we think of the purse limit like it literally means you can only hold so many bills, and shmuckers are ones. Rands could be the equivalent of using hundreds instead, vastly increasing money storage without having to go to a moneymancer to change your ones in to a ruby or something. Then it still depends on shmuckers without giving an advantage.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Snowbody » Wed May 14, 2014 11:48 am

Lead pipes? How much of a health threat is dissolved lead to Erfworlders? For StupidWorld humans, there is no safe level, any amount of lead has deleterious health effects over time. (Unless the dirtamancer coats the inside of the pipe with phosphoric acid)

http://water.epa.gov/drink/info/lead/ wrote:But lead in drinking water can also cause a variety of adverse health effects. ... In adults, it can cause increases in blood pressure. Adults who drink this water over many years could develop kidney problems or high blood pressure.

Lead is rarely found in source water, but enters tap water through corrosion of plumbing materials. Homes built before 1986 are more likely to have lead pipes, fixtures and solder. The most common problem is with brass or chrome-plated brass faucets and fixtures which can leach significant amounts of lead into the water, especially hot water.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby technojunkie » Wed May 14, 2014 11:50 am

WurmD wrote:
Code: Select all
"Schuckers can probably be converted into Rands"


If this would be true, I don't see atm why would anyone do that instead of just using Schmuckers.
This would also probably defeat the point of Rands (Someone: "We don't use Schmuckers so not to give the Moneymancers the advantage over everyone")
...


A simple explanation is that Warlords have a limited purse size. Rands may be an avenue of divorcing upkeep from the purse. Logically I would think that moneymancers would have been the ones to invent the concept. Yes there's likely concern that they can manipulate the market, but necessity likely drives them to keep it stable. Also, monopolization of the market is probably prevented by everybody being a free-agent. One moneymancer over-charging for conversion would open the door for 3 moneymancers to undercut him.

Keighvin1 wrote:So what if we think of the purse limit like it literally means you can only hold so many bills, and shmuckers are ones. Rands could be the equivalent of using hundreds instead, vastly increasing money storage without having to go to a moneymancer to change your ones in to a ruby or something. Then it still depends on shmuckers without giving an advantage.


you may have a point...When Sizemore talks about paying Janis her Rands, it appears the transfer is directed by thought. Furthermore Digdoug considered it a stat point in the narrative.

The downside here is that unless Digdoug's upkeep is exactly equal to one Rand, he didn't get change. So if you burn a whole rand for anything less in value, there's a risk of wasting resources.

We could really dive into moneymancy on a different theory. One Rand may equal exactly one turn of upkeep for the caster that holds it but that introduces an inequality for casters of differing levels, meaning that for one caster a rand may be equal to a lesser casters two rands. But that theory kinda gets shot by the interaction in book one between Sizemore and Janis, as he talks about paying ten, then twenty rands as if they have a common value between them.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 20

Postby Lipkin » Wed May 14, 2014 12:17 pm

Gems can be converted to smuckers and back. Smuckers can be messed with by Moneymancers. I suspect smuckers can be converted into rands, but rands can't be converted into smuckers. That way, once the rand exists, a moneymancer no longer as any influence over it.

Though I guess if this were the case, a Moneymancer would still be able to flood the market. IDK.
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