Digdoug - Episode 21

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Wed May 21, 2014 12:10 pm

Zeku wrote:I guess we know why upkeep isn't a huge problem in the MK, because just basic farming ensures upkeep remains reasonable. A few Florists and Dirtamancers could keep large groups of casters well fed.
It's nice that we got a fair sense of scale too. Somebody with no farming skill grows about 2 meals in 25 days. Cheap Dirtamancy makes 6 meals in 40 days. Good Dirtamancy makes it even better. Still though...that's not actually a lot. If we extrapolate this out, good Dirtamancy combined with good Flower Power could probably only make about 1 cooked meal a day per plot, so not even enough to totally feed the 2 casters who made it in the first place.

Interesting that meat is more valuable...I wonder if it's basically the inverse of our world. Only 10% of the energy gets passed up the food chain with each step, so it takes you 10 lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of beef for example (losely speaking). But here, a single serving of meat is more nourishing and "meaningful" than an equal serving of vegetable. So maybe the more steps/work that go into producing food, the more nourishing it is. So the ideal setup would be Dirt/Flower making the best farm possible, feeding livestock that are tamed/bred by Carnies and Date-a-mancers, then having Healomancers/Changemancers process the meat. Maybe Parson will try it out.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby themysticalone » Wed May 21, 2014 12:21 pm

0beron wrote:Interesting that meat is more valuable...I wonder if it's basically the inverse of our world. Only 10% of the energy gets passed up the food chain with each step, so it takes you 10 lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of beef for example (losely speaking). But here, a single serving of meat is more nourishing and "meaningful" than an equal serving of vegetable. So maybe the more steps/work that go into producing food, the more nourishing it is.


Generally, protein is more satiating though. You can eat a crapton of bread or lettuce, but you tend to fill up on meat more quickly.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby multilis » Wed May 21, 2014 12:28 pm

The plan that Dove proposed feels stupid overall... you weaken own defences and if prophesy was about another side attacking you that still will that means you are overall in worse shape. So overall not a good gamble that this somehow will cure the original prophesy.

Charlie fulfilling contract then being able to attack again next turn to croak king for bounty was obvious flawed contract. Charlie is no weaker, side had less defences, Charlie has sides shmuckers.

So... I wouldn't trust Dove unless she had more in plan that hasn't been said. Either incompetent or malicious or some details are still hidden. Similarly Posbrake was either incompetent in this case or some details are still hidden.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby CarniDollMancer » Wed May 21, 2014 12:39 pm

multilis wrote:Either incompetent or malicious or some details are still hidden. Similarly Posbrake was either incompetent in this case or some details are still hidden.


I agree, missing the possibility of Charlie's betrayal falling after Homekey's turn seems like base incompetence, and I am pretty sure that they specified how the contract only covered that battle. Posbrake is not dumb, and Peck didn't seem like he was unintelligent either, so I have been assuming that there is more to this. Also, now that the Carnies have all agreed that Charlie got paid probably up to four times, I feel that there is a twist coming where we find out that he did not get that much. Otherwise, what is left to reveal in the next update (except DD's general resignation to a new lot in life)?

Yeah, some important detail is still very missing.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Snowbody » Wed May 21, 2014 12:51 pm

Why would anyone provide the cook with Schmuckers? Those aren't used in the Magic Kingdom.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby CarniDollMancer » Wed May 21, 2014 12:54 pm

It isn't that they are not used at all. The Casters deal between themselves in a barter unit called a Rand, but a single bowl of community soup is not worth an entire Rand. Instead they give a few of the more traditional currency as a way to make up for the ingredients they could not contribute.

Edited to add this thought: Also, if they did not use Schmuckers at all, how would a fresh Barbarian with a purse have any money in the MK. They would be unable to get Rands for the Schmuckers they already have.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Wed May 21, 2014 12:59 pm

kefkakrazy wrote:Yeah, that's what I meant: Charlie is currently one of the only rulers who cares about the Carnies enough to understand how dangerous they are, and that gives him, as you pointed out, access to a very valuable resource at a cut-rate price. He has no need to hire Thinkamancers (which seem to be among the most valuable casters), he's practically the god of Thinkamancy at this point thanks to the Arkendish...

One wonders just how many rules the guy can break.



Yeah... was he even fated to attune to the arkendish or did he break that rule as well?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed May 21, 2014 1:22 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Denar wrote:By the end of this update we seem to have honesty coming from Dove and the other Carnies, but I'm not sure what to make of Nickel/Dove interaction. She *did* confirm that Digdoug was her Mark, but that it meant "under her protection" which, every time I read it, just sounds like a blatant lie (goes against what Digdoug knows the term means, and what we know it means), so I dunno. If it did mean protection, then why would Nickel (who knew it), try and get Digdoug hooked/poisoned on the alcohol? Seems a bit odd. "Oh, you're the one Dove wants to protect. Have you tried my magic poison?" So on the first read through it looked to me like there was something about the drink, and his message of "come find me later for more", that meant this was how Digdoug was going to get his answers. Maybe a bit of Winemancy lets Digdoug enter "DrinkSpace" with this drunk carny!
.

By "under her protection" i think she means under her protection from other carnies. I think the carnies have an "honor amongst thieves" thing going on; you don't mess with another carny's mark. If Digdoug is Dove's mark, then no other carny is allowed to sucker him. Hence so long as he's Dov'e 's mark, Dove is protecting him from being Conned by the other carny's. Nickel giving Digdoug that flask was him trying to make digdoug into a mark and thus violate the unwritten Carny code; which is why Dove said he should no better than to give dig doug something like that.


When I heard that Doug was "under her protection", I couldn't help but think in mafia terms. He may be subject to a protection racket, where as long as he helps Dove out, she'll honestly ensure that no one (not even her) will do anything negative to Doug. As much as that racket is generally illegal in stupidworld, and probably would be considered immoral extortion in Erfworld, it can often be truly beneficial to both parties (statistically speaking.) Maybe that really is the kind of mark he is?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby jeffseadot » Wed May 21, 2014 1:30 pm

This episode really illustrates the destitution of the carnies. They're so persistently skirting the edge of not paying upkeep that a piece of their culture is based around reducing upkeep as much as possible. What's worse, I imagine, is that this is not a normal arrangement. Unless barbarian casters can spontaneously pop, every single one of them had a ruler at one point who paid their upkeep. If they're all barbarians, then they all at one point or another had to deal with the realization that they have to take care of themselves in a world that doesn't trust them. Digdug's shock of being without a side and suddenly learning that he has to take care of himself is one that every carny has gone through. The difference is, Digdug should be able to find plenty of work to keep himself going. The carnies can't. I don't doubt that every single one of them would jump at the chance to join a side if they could.

Which brings up a prediction I've still got for how this story will resolve: Digdug and Dove will reclaim Homekey and start it over; Digdug being the overlord and Dove being Chief Carnymancer. We learned in book 2 that a basic spell (that is, one not made by a link) is able to mimic royal attributes: Lloyd made a copy of Slately so perfect that it counted as a literal king, and perpetuated the side even after the real king croaked. I see no reason why carnymancy can't turn Digdug into an heir for a turn, so that he can reclaim the city and restart the side. If there's any reason why Dove couldn't do that, I'd say it's because it's too powerful for her level, not because it's impossible. Digdug doesn't have much to offer her but the promise of a permanent job, but I suspect that's all she really wants anyway.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Wed May 21, 2014 1:48 pm

jeffseadot wrote:Which brings up a prediction I've still got for how this story will resolve: Digdug and Dove will reclaim Homekey and start it over; Digdug being the overlord and Dove being Chief Carnymancer. We learned in book 2 that a basic spell (that is, one not made by a link) is able to mimic royal attributes: Lloyd made a copy of Slately so perfect that it counted as a literal king, and perpetuated the side even after the real king croaked. I see no reason why carnymancy can't turn Digdug into an heir for a turn, so that he can reclaim the city and restart the side. If there's any reason why Dove couldn't do that, I'd say it's because it's too powerful for her level, not because it's impossible. Digdug doesn't have much to offer her but the promise of a permanent job, but I suspect that's all she really wants anyway.
I don't think that a spell is even needed. Spinning off a side seems to require permission and/or heir status, but nothing has yet told us that's required to start a side in the first place. Jillian even had the choice to call her new side something other than FAQ, suggesting that reclaiming the Capital is not really a 'continuation' of the old side. Technically I think all you need is to be a Commander. Just speculation, but we shouldn't be so hasty to jump to conclusions about Digdoug NOT being able to claim a capital without Dove's magic.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby CarniDollMancer » Wed May 21, 2014 1:55 pm

0beron wrote:Technically I think all you need is to be a Commander. Just speculation, but we shouldn't be so hasty to jump to conclusions about Digdoug NOT being able to claim a capital without Dove's magic.


And a Dirtamancer as Overlord would provide some amazing bonuses to city creation and modification, probably across the whole side. Talk about a defensible side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed May 21, 2014 1:55 pm

jeffseadot wrote: Unless barbarian casters can spontaneously pop, every single one of them had a ruler at one point who paid their upkeep.


Actually, the Thinkamancer profiles did include a caster that was popped "feral." So, that is possible, though rare.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed May 21, 2014 1:58 pm

0beron wrote:Jillian even had the choice to call her new side something other than FAQ, suggesting that reclaiming the Capital is not really a 'continuation' of the old side. Technically I think all you need is to be a Commander. Just speculation, but we shouldn't be so hasty to jump to conclusions about Digdoug NOT being able to claim a capital without Dove's magic.

From the text, I was led to believe that Jillian was able to start a side because she had been an heir before. So, she may not be the best example to suggest you didn't need to be an heir.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Roszlishan » Wed May 21, 2014 2:02 pm

jeffseadot wrote:This episode really illustrates the destitution of the carnies. They're so persistently skirting the edge of not paying upkeep that a piece of their culture is based around reducing upkeep as much as possible. What's worse, I imagine, is that this is not a normal arrangement. Unless barbarian casters can spontaneously pop, every single one of them had a ruler at one point who paid their upkeep. If they're all barbarians, then they all at one point or another had to deal with the realization that they have to take care of themselves in a world that doesn't trust them. Digdug's shock of being without a side and suddenly learning that he has to take care of himself is one that every carny has gone through. The difference is, Digdug should be able to find plenty of work to keep himself going. The carnies can't. I don't doubt that every single one of them would jump at the chance to join a side if they could.


Your comments sparked other thoughts for me; this isn't really a direct response so much as a connected one ...

Perhaps we're just seeing a lower economic strata within the Magic Kingdom. So far, we've been exposed to the associates of a Grand Abbie Hippiemancer and the Great Minds of the Thinkamancers -- all of whom are sufficiently well-connected and powerful as to be beyond the turn-to-turn terror of paying upkeep. Perhaps many casters have this issue, and we're just seeing it now. We only see what the author has gotten around to showing us, after all, and what he's showed us so far is mostly the Great and Powerful -- the Small and Meek have made a few appearances, but I think Dove & the Carnyvale is the first place is the first place we've seen this kind of endemic hardship.

I'm now pondering the amazing versatility and power of a Carnymancer/[Other Caster] linkup. I suspect the author showed us the cooperative casting between Digdoug and Dove not merely as a story element but as an overarching mechanics element. It certainly gives some insight into how Charlie & ex-Unaroyal's turnamancer ended Gobwin Knob's turn prematurely.

And if nothing else, a teamup of Digdoug (as a respectable dirtamancer) with an anonymous assistant (Dove, to get around the general bigotry against carnymancers) would be able to offer some pretty astounding services throughout Erfworld. I doubt that will happen, but ... it's an interesting thought to me, at least.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Wed May 21, 2014 2:05 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
0beron wrote:Jillian even had the choice to call her new side something other than FAQ, suggesting that reclaiming the Capital is not really a 'continuation' of the old side. Technically I think all you need is to be a Commander. Just speculation, but we shouldn't be so hasty to jump to conclusions about Digdoug NOT being able to claim a capital without Dove's magic.
From the text, I was led to believe that Jillian was able to start a side because she had been an heir before. So, she may not be the best example to suggest you didn't need to be an heir.
I think you missed my point. Nothing in the text says that her [former] heir status is significant, and the fact that she had free choice about the name further weakens the suggestion that her new side was in any way linked to Old FAQ. We're looking at a potential "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" situation. The fact that she was formerly an Heir is by itself not proof that Heir status is needed for side creation.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby CarniDollMancer » Wed May 21, 2014 2:07 pm

I would think it is possible, albeit it exceptionally difficult, for a barbarian to eventually be able to found a side.

Say he (Let's call him De Gama) pops as a member of a tribe of some sort. The tribe is doing poorly but De Gama has been successful and eventually gets promoted up somehow. Then the tribe loses a battle, but has some members left alive, and they decide De Gama is the right choice to lead the tribe. If De Gama then leads that tribe to great success, and it grows and they manage to win a city or two, why would it not be possible for him to get enough schmuckers to create a side for his tribe? Or maybe they hire on to help some side wipe out some other side and part of the contract is that they get the capital after, and cannot be attacked by the side they helped for 300 turns or something.

There almost has to be a mechanic for Barbarians founding a side, or the only new sides would essentially be spin-offs who could eventually trace the lineage of their side all the way back to the same original side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed May 21, 2014 2:12 pm

0beron wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:
0beron wrote:Jillian even had the choice to call her new side something other than FAQ, suggesting that reclaiming the Capital is not really a 'continuation' of the old side. Technically I think all you need is to be a Commander. Just speculation, but we shouldn't be so hasty to jump to conclusions about Digdoug NOT being able to claim a capital without Dove's magic.
From the text, I was led to believe that Jillian was able to start a side because she had been an heir before. So, she may not be the best example to suggest you didn't need to be an heir.
I think you missed my point. Nothing in the text says that her [former] heir status is significant, and the fact that she had free choice about the name further weakens the suggestion that her new side was in any way linked to Old FAQ. We're looking at a potential "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" situation. The fact that she was formerly an Heir is by itself not proof that Heir status is needed for side creation.


Actually, I didn't miss your point at all. I was just pointing out that the fact she is an heir and the fact that we have no non-heir examples means we cannot say. Also, though it hasn't been explicitly stated, it certainly was suggested by both Ansom and Don King that Jillian being a Princess may have given her the ability to restart her side.

Also, I'm not sure the ability of Jillian to rename the side is any more significant than Sizemore's ability to change the look of Gobwin Knob when rebuilding it or Maggie's creation of a symbolic standard for the side. It may just be that you're allowed to rename/rebrand a side when it's rebuilt. Stanley did rename the city that was burned and refounded, too, after all. Maybe anything being rebuilt can be renamed, regardless of who does it?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Wed May 21, 2014 2:17 pm

jeffseadot wrote:This episode really illustrates the destitution of the carnies. They're so persistently skirting the edge of not paying upkeep that a piece of their culture is based around reducing upkeep as much as possible. What's worse, I imagine, is that this is not a normal arrangement. Unless barbarian casters can spontaneously pop, every single one of them had a ruler at one point who paid their upkeep. If they're all barbarians, then they all at one point or another had to deal with the realization that they have to take care of themselves in a world that doesn't trust them. Digdug's shock of being without a side and suddenly learning that he has to take care of himself is one that every carny has gone through. The difference is, Digdug should be able to find plenty of work to keep himself going. The carnies can't. I don't doubt that every single one of them would jump at the chance to join a side if they could.

Which brings up a prediction I've still got for how this story will resolve: Digdug and Dove will reclaim Homekey and start it over; Digdug being the overlord and Dove being Chief Carnymancer. We learned in book 2 that a basic spell (that is, one not made by a link) is able to mimic royal attributes: Lloyd made a copy of Slately so perfect that it counted as a literal king, and perpetuated the side even after the real king croaked. I see no reason why carnymancy can't turn Digdug into an heir for a turn, so that he can reclaim the city and restart the side. If there's any reason why Dove couldn't do that, I'd say it's because it's too powerful for her level, not because it's impossible. Digdug doesn't have much to offer her but the promise of a permanent job, but I suspect that's all she really wants anyway.

We know casters can pop in the wild. But getting to the MK requires a portal, which requires a capitol, so most if not all Carnies in the MK popped to a side. Though I wouldn't be surprised if many Carnies were not banished to the MK as soon as they popped.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Wed May 21, 2014 2:26 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Actually, I didn't miss your point at all. I was just pointing out that the fact she is an heir and the fact that we have no non-heir examples means we cannot say.
Ok, so we're 100% on the same page there. There is nothing concrete to tell us the requirements yet.
Godzfirefly wrote:Also, though it hasn't been explicitly stated, it certainly was suggested by both Ansom and Don King that Jillian being a Princess may have given her the ability to restart her side.
I think that is more a product of her being Royal than her being a Princess. They want an ally, but will only tolerate fellow Royals. So having a very high level and clearly combat-proven ally who suddenly reveals herself as a Royal is the perfect target for a promotion. They then push the idea of "restarting her side" to feed on ehr well-established sense of vengence.
Godzfirefly wrote:Also, I'm not sure the ability of Jillian to rename the side is any more significant than [other aesthetic changes thus far]...Maybe anything being rebuilt can be renamed, regardless of who does it?
It's possible, but doesn't make sense if having a tie is significant. Maggie and Sizemore doing remodeling isn't quite the same thing, because the city was actually never lost (just reduced to a level 1, and without any enemies present to claim it, it remained under GK control). Maggie added a Crest where previously there hadn't been one at all, and Sizemore did what Dirtamancers are supposed to be capable of, designing a city. I guess what I'm saying is that if the rules are specific enough to require you be an Heir of the side that used to occupy the Capital, it doesn't make sense that the rules would still let you change the name.

OH, boom, we have another example. Stanley was going to take FAQ's site to start himself a new Side, despite having no connection to Old FAQ, and despite not being an Heir. So this at least broadens our minimum requirements to being a former "Side Authority", with no connection to the site required.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed May 21, 2014 2:29 pm

0beron wrote:OH, boom, we have another example. Stanley was going to take FAQ's site to start himself a new Side, despite having no connection to Old FAQ, and despite not being an Heir. So this at least broadens our minimum requirements to being a former "Side Authority", with no connection to the site required.


Well, Stanley was a ruler/heir, though. (And, if your point is that no connection to the site is necessary, you are right. We have numerous examples of THAT.)
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