Digdoug - Episode 21

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Wed May 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
0beron wrote:OH, boom, we have another example. Stanley was going to take FAQ's site to start himself a new Side, despite having no connection to Old FAQ, and despite not being an Heir. So this at least broadens our minimum requirements to being a former "Side Authority", with no connection to the site required.
Well, Stanley was a ruler/heir, though. (And, if your point is that no connection to the site is necessary, you are right. We have numerous examples of THAT.)
Yeah, that's what I was pointing out, our criteria must expand to Heir OR Ruler now, rather than just Heir. They're not the same thing.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby MonteCristo » Wed May 21, 2014 2:58 pm

CarniDollMancer wrote:Edited to add this thought: Also, if they did not use Schmuckers at all, how would a fresh Barbarian with a purse have any money in the MK. They would be unable to get Rands for the Schmuckers they already have.


They wouldn't need to. The smuckers can still be used to pay off their upkeep. This is why casters till take work from sides; the smuckers they pay can help cover their upkeep for a while, even though they can't use it in the MK. If they want rands, they can look for work within the MK


0beron wrote:Interesting that meat is more valuable...I wonder if it's basically the inverse of our world. Only 10% of the energy gets passed up the food chain with each step, so it takes you 10 lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of beef for example (losely speaking). But here, a single serving of meat is more nourishing and "meaningful" than an equal serving of vegetable. So maybe the more steps/work that go into producing food, the more nourishing it is. So the ideal setup would be Dirt/Flower making the best farm possible, feeding livestock that are tamed/bred by Carnies and Date-a-mancers, then having Healomancers/Changemancers process the meat. Maybe Parson will try it out.


It could simply be the case that the meat makes for a tasty soup... The soup maker appreciates having a better tasting soup(along with the others), and thus is willing to "pay" a little extra to have the meat.

Though one thing that did bug me was how one rand was equal to one turn. I mean if food halve's your upkeep, then that would mean one half rand... Seems like it should be a bit higher just to account for how you might reduce your upkeep; like upkeep being 10 rands, so reducing it would mean reducing to 5

Which brings up a prediction I've still got for how this story will resolve: Digdug and Dove will reclaim Homekey and start it over


I don't see why DigDoug would do that. Digdoug didn't really love Homekey itself; he loved the people and how the side was run. Without Posbrake, Bucky and the others, it wouldn't be the same side he knew and loved. Why take on the hard job of running a whole new side when he can just take care himself? From what we know from Sizemore, Dirtamancer's are prized in the magic kingdom and he will have no trouble keep himself alive.

Perhaps we're just seeing a lower economic strata within the Magic Kingdom. So far, we've been exposed to the associates of a Grand Abbie Hippiemancer and the Great Minds of the Thinkamancers -- all of whom are sufficiently well-connected and powerful as to be beyond the turn-to-turn terror of paying upkeep.


indeed. Janice may be a hippy, but she's wealthy enough that she can spend 150 Rands to untangle Maggie, Sizemore and Wanda... and the thinkamancers are wealthy enough that they can IGNORE such a good offer.

The carnies on the other hand, live day by day... they never know when their gonna suddenly find themselves running so low on rands. And this is how Charlie can keep them working for him... They are desperate and he knows hoe useful they all can be. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if Charlie is the reason Dove ran into DigDoug that fateful night; she needed work, Charlie knew their was trouble brewing in Homekey and thus knew that if she hung around portal park, she'd find someone who needed a caster for something
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby jeffseadot » Wed May 21, 2014 3:15 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
It could simply be the case that the meat makes for a tasty soup... The soup maker appreciates having a better tasting soup(along with the others), and thus is willing to "pay" a little extra to have the meat.


The flavor of food seems like it would be a form of natural signamancy. And maybe there's something to it: meat comes from croaked things, so maybe when you're eating to pay your upkeep, it's more useful to eat something that had to croak before it became food.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby ManaCaster » Wed May 21, 2014 3:23 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Actually, I didn't miss your point at all. I was just pointing out that the fact she is an heir and the fact that we have no non-heir examples means we cannot say.

Actually, we do. Parson is not an heir, and yet could have started his own side at Spacerock, had he not had a bunch of other Gobwin Knob units in the garrison as well. Charlie admitted as much. Heirship is a way of safeguarding or passing on an existing side. It isn't needed for an entirely new side. Heck, you could probably pass on a side without heirship, it would just be tedious, risky, and time consuming, depending on the size of the side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Wed May 21, 2014 3:29 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:Actually, I didn't miss your point at all. I was just pointing out that the fact she is an heir and the fact that we have no non-heir examples means we cannot say.

Actually, we do. Parson is not an heir, and yet could have started his own side at Spacerock, had he not had a bunch of other Gobwin Knob units in the garrison as well. Charlie admitted as much. Heirship is a way of safeguarding or passing on an existing side. It isn't needed for an entirely new side. Heck, you could probably pass on a side without heirship, it would just be tedious, risky, and time consuming, depending on the size of the side.
Oh great catch, thanks!
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby jeffseadot » Wed May 21, 2014 3:35 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote: Parson is not an heir, and yet could have started his own side at Spacerock, had he not had a bunch of other Gobwin Knob units in the garrison as well.


I forgot about that. So Digdug wouldn't have to be an heir in order to restart Homekey or begin a new side... all he'd need is an otherwise empty former capitol.

Or he could team up with a carnymancer, and that former capitol wouldn't have to be empty.
Or he could team up with a carnymancer, and that city wouldn't even have to be a former capitol.
Or he could team up with a carnymancer, and he could just choose whatever spot he wanted, city or not.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby twhitt » Wed May 21, 2014 3:38 pm

http://www.erfworld.com/2013/04/inner-p ... isode-066/
An adventurous warlord named Lex Doothis had crossed a great sea and discovered a Level 2 barbarian city on the site. Upon conquering it, he spun off a new side. From that small seed, Haffaton slowly grew into the largest side in Erfworld.

This doesn't clarify much on its own because Lex isn't identified as an heir but that doesn't mean he wasn't, and the barbarians seem to be explicitly not a named side in spite of being in a capital site, so why's that?

I don't have answers, but it's not going to stop me from guessing. I'm pretty sure we've seen elsewhere that what's needed to found a side is to be a commander, and possession of a capital site. Might have been one of Parson's notes. The commander requirement would mean that any Warlord or Caster, regardless of Noble, Royal, Heir, or current-Ruler, should be able to form a side. I might posit that only units which currently, or have at some point previously belonged to a side can form a side. This would mean native-popped barbarian units would always belong to and found barbarian sides, and spin-offs or sides formed by abandoned units (like Jillian, Wanda, Charlie or Digdoug) are capable of forming (or reforming) named sides.

If that's not the rule, we'd need some other way to explain why Haffaton was founded by a warlord on the capital site of a formerly barbarian city which wasn't itself a side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby vintermann » Wed May 21, 2014 4:00 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:That's what I figured happened. Charlie got paid. Bottom line whenever Charlie is involved.


It's not that simple, I think. We know Charlie thinks there's really just one enemy that's worth fighting. We don't know who or what it is, but fate is a good candidate.

The money thing is a cover, I think. Charlie doesn't really need a ton of money, he just pretends to in order to not get exploited by people who know what he really wants: twarthing fate at every turn.

For Homekey, there was a prediction of a devastating attack from the air. Charlie got into the conflict solely because he wanted to stop that from happening. Not for Homekey's sake, for its own sake. He wants fate to really have to throw its luckamancy around.

He knew that the ploy he came up with, with a false devastating attack from air, would not actually satisfy the prediction. Fate isn't fooled by foolamancy, and the attack was not actually devastating. He also plotted to have Homekey eradicated as a side as soon as possible after the fake attack, in order that the prediction would become impossible to fulfill. But he didn't really bear Posbrake any ill will, thus Prince Creen's efforts at a "peaceful" solution. Something went wrong there too. We don't know what happened.

But I expect what happened was a sudden, devastating attack by air. Maybe from a different side. Or maybe fate forced Charlie's hand, by threatening somehow to fulfill a prediction he's even more obsessed with preventing from happening.

Narrative-wise, I think an aim of this mini-story was to repaint Charlie as a villain. Rob maybe thought that his backstory in "Inner Peace through superior Firepower" left him a little too sympathetic for someone set up to be the main antagonist in the upcoming album.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Wed May 21, 2014 5:47 pm

vintermann wrote:The money thing is a cover, I think. Charlie doesn't really need a ton of money, he just pretends to in order to not get exploited by people who know what he really wants: twarthing fate at every turn.


I dunno...did you catch the costs of even basic Archons? I think Charlie has a pretty massive need for money.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Wed May 21, 2014 5:55 pm

twhitt wrote:If that's not the rule, we'd need some other way to explain why Haffaton was founded by a warlord on the capital site of a formerly barbarian city which wasn't itself a side.
We can do it without inventing new rules. If we guess that the city were neutral, that would explain it, and we know that neutral cities are sometimes called barbarian cities from B0E74. Neutral cities were originally explained in B1K12; it means that the city is frozen in time and this can happen even to a capital city if the ruler dies without an heir.

I'm pretty sure neutrals cannot start sides because they would surely choose to stop being neutral if they could. I expect that anyone else can start a side at any time; it just means leaving your current side, paying your own upkeep, and hopefully finding at least one other unit willing to turn to your side. Finding a capital city and gaining control of the garrison surely has major benefits too, but it's not clear what those benefits are exactly since Faq managed to carry on fairly well without its capital in Book 0.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Silversought » Wed May 21, 2014 6:22 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
vintermann wrote:The money thing is a cover, I think. Charlie doesn't really need a ton of money, he just pretends to in order to not get exploited by people who know what he really wants: twarthing fate at every turn.


I dunno...did you catch the costs of even basic Archons? I think Charlie has a pretty massive need for money.

Charlie covers fleet costs with telecom sales though. His mercenary work is just a bonus.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby WurmD » Wed May 21, 2014 6:34 pm

OOOHHH! Do you think Charlie could end war in Erfworld if he used the 'Dish to link with a Hippie or two, or a Hippie and a Carny? They could break the rule of only affecting one hex to create a massive multi-hex Chillaxe effect that breaks the rule of lasting only one turn (Maybe it would need Charlie, Hippie, and a Turnamancer I guess).

ZOMG THAT WOULD BE AWESOME in such philosophical and other ways
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Xarx » Wed May 21, 2014 7:02 pm

Almost certainly any command level unit can start a side if they claim a capital site, whether they are barbarians or spinning off from an existing side with permission.

But in practical terms there are serious obstacles to that for free casters in the MK, the biggest one being how do they physically get to an unclaimed capital site? They would have to go through another side's portal, which would require an alliance or they'd be killed on sight. If they somehow managed that, they would still have to make an incredibly dangerous journey through hostile territory, all the while hoping that no-one else got there first. And this is assuming that they even have a way of knowing where to look in the first place, though some disciplines would obviously have the edge on that score.

Even if they arrived safely and met no resistance on the site, they'd be extremely vulnerable while getting the site up to full strength. Mind you, a dirtamancer with a stack of rock golems would probably have a better chance than most, but the point is that the risk/reward ratio for this scenario is way out of balance. The MK is a pretty comfortable place; you can make a living, have friends and lovers, be respected by your peers, and as a rule nobody will be trying to kill you while you're there. Why on Erf would a self-respecting caster want to found a new side? They'd need a powerful motive.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby ManaCaster » Wed May 21, 2014 7:35 pm

Xarx wrote:But in practical terms there are serious obstacles to that for free casters in the MK, the biggest one being how do they physically get to an unclaimed capital site? They would have to go through another side's portal, which would require an alliance or they'd be killed on sight. If they somehow managed that, they would still have to make an incredibly dangerous journey through hostile territory, all the while hoping that no-one else got there first. And this is assuming that they even have a way of knowing where to look in the first place, though some disciplines would obviously have the edge on that score.

Even if they arrived safely and met no resistance on the site, they'd be extremely vulnerable while getting the site up to full strength. Mind you, a dirtamancer with a stack of rock golems would probably have a better chance than most, but the point is that the risk/reward ratio for this scenario is way out of balance. The MK is a pretty comfortable place; you can make a living, have friends and lovers, be respected by your peers, and as a rule nobody will be trying to kill you while you're there.

We currently have one example of a barbarian caster that likely wants to recreate her side: Empress Saltina. I imagine this is probably her main motive for supporting the Great Minds' conspiracy, despite apparently being Royal. She probably hopes that getting in the good graces of a powerful existing side will give her the opportunity. Gobwin Knob does have a couple spare capital cities right now.

According to her entry, a caster recreating their side is taboo in the Magic Kingdom.

Xarx wrote:Why on Erf would a self-respecting caster want to found a new side? They'd need a powerful motive.

Agreed that getting there is a big obstacle, but why wouldn't they want to start a new side, or at least dream about it? Power, a secure supply of schmuckers, those sound like pretty powerful motivations to me.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Omnimancer » Wed May 21, 2014 8:34 pm

Doesn't building a city from scratch cost a lot of money? Even if they found an unoccupied city hex, a lone barbarian, whether warlord or caster, would have a lot of trouble saving up that kind of fortune. A more likely scenario for barbarians starting a side is that they conquer an existing city and choose to keep it instead of raze it.

The other reason why it's a bad idea for a lone person to start a side is that they not only have to start a side, they have to keep it. A single city side with few units and no allies is likely to get wiped out by the first neighbor that notices them. It's easier to start a new side if you have a patron to watch your back and help you grow, like Delkey or Transylvito.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Wed May 21, 2014 9:43 pm

Omnimancer wrote:Doesn't building a city from scratch cost a lot of money? Even if they found an unoccupied city hex, a lone barbarian, whether warlord or caster, would have a lot of trouble saving up that kind of fortune.
A level 1 city is completely defenseless, as mentioned in B1P133, so surely it is inexpensive to build. I imagine that any warlord can build a tiny level 1 city out of his purse and then the city will start producing shmuckers and units which can be the start of a side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Omnimancer » Wed May 21, 2014 10:12 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Omnimancer wrote:Doesn't building a city from scratch cost a lot of money? Even if they found an unoccupied city hex, a lone barbarian, whether warlord or caster, would have a lot of trouble saving up that kind of fortune.
A level 1 city is completely defenseless, as mentioned in B1P133, so surely it is inexpensive to build. I imagine that any warlord can build a tiny level 1 city out of his purse and then the city will start producing shmuckers and units which can be the start of a side.


Perhaps. But then they have a level 1 city to defend, and no new units for a while. Unless they're hidden away like Faq, or under someone's protection like Homekey, they're likely to get wiped out before they can grow strong. The exception would be if an entire barbarian band took over a city, so they have enough people to hold it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby arbo » Wed May 21, 2014 10:57 pm

I notice Jojo isn't there with the rest of the gang, acting all boss and such.

I also notice DigDoug is nowhere to be found in the MK nowadays.

Therefore, this story must take place in the past, before Unaroyal and the Battle for Gobwin Knob.

Therefore, it could be a time when Charlescomm wasn't Level 5 yet and Charlie could use a Dirtamancer, possibly tricking DigDoug into working for him in exchange for information on the fate of Homekey.

Therefore, DigDoug stays in Charlescomm to boost the city and reinforce it endlessly with devastating Dirtamancy defenses.

Therefore, when the time comes for the Ultimate Final Battle of Destiny between Parsonside's and Charlescomm's forces....

DIGDOUG VERSUS SIZEMORE!!!
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Keighvin1 » Wed May 21, 2014 11:33 pm

Well, while it is likely set before Book 2, not seeing Digdoug in the main story is not a big deal, since we have seen a grand total of 2 dirtamancers, one of which is Sizemore. We also have not been anywhere close to the Carnyvale, so technically Digdoug could be sitting have a stew while Book 2 happens, since it all takes place very quickly in real time.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby multilis » Wed May 21, 2014 11:43 pm

Keighvin1 wrote:....we have seen a grand total of 2 dirtamancers,..

Grand total of 3, http://www.erfworld.com/2013/07/book-2-page-113/
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