Digdoug - Episode 21

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Thu May 22, 2014 12:03 am

multilis wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:....we have seen a grand total of 2 dirtamancers,..

Grand total of 3, http://www.erfworld.com/2013/07/book-2-page-113/
That's what Multilis meant. In the main comic, we have only seen 2 Dirtamancers. So not exactly a huge sample size from which to say "it's odd that we haven't seen Digdoug among those Dirtamancers shown already".
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby arbo » Thu May 22, 2014 12:22 am

balder wrote:Rob says a lot of things, but then his boss (the story) tells him no.


LIKE A BOSS.

Even the Highest of Titans must bow before the power of the Story who Tells him.

It's awesome to witness an author at work with this kind of mindset about his craft. No wonder the results are so good.

Hm, this actually fits nicely the theory about Carnymancers having medium awareness and the debate of Fate versus Free Will.

Fate = the Story

Free Will = the Fourth Wall

Without the Story there would be no Erfworld. And the Plot is already decided in the minds of the Titans up to Book 5. That is Fate.

But characters are infamous for ocasionally doing stuff against the author’s wishes. Several creators acknowledge this. That is Free Will.

Predictamancers, who have affinity with the Rough Draft and can sense Plot Points in the future, work diligently to unfold the Story. They’re agents of Fate.

Carnymancers, who can see everything is a Show put on for us and know fantastic Plot Twists do write themselves, are okay with derailing the Story. They’re marauders of Free Will.

Both want the Story to continue, the show to go on, so Erfworld doesn’t disband.

Toolism would say the purpose of Life is to be lived in Really Interesting Ways, so the Titans who are watching keep the series from being cancelled. (say, with 300% Kickstarter funding.)

I feel Erfworld is as much about storytelling as it is about boardgaming.
“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”
User avatar
arbo
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm
Location: Recife, Brazil

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Beeskee » Thu May 22, 2014 12:31 am

This update helped solidify my opinion that Dove isn't scamming Doug, I think she just called him a mark to keep other carnies off his back. Looks like her list was intended to pay for his upkeep for one or more additional turns, if it only took one more task to call his current debt even.

Edit: If she's paying 1 rand per task, and the heal was one rand, that makes sense. Tho the heal could have been more and she's paying 2 or more rands per task. That heal seemed pretty bare-bones tho and a healomancer used to working with carnies is probably used to only making the bare minimum profit.

What I was hoping for more info on was Rands, and we got that, but not much. How does the "half upkeep" thing work with rands where it seems 1 rand = 1 turn of upkeep? Is that even the case, or just that Doug's upkeep was below the threshold? Do rands have a fixed value relative to shmuckers?

Rob you're a tease. ;) Don't change. :D
Eventually tho you are going to have to post some solid info. If you're worried about someone ripping off Erfworld, don't be. It's easier for someone to make their own IP and not owe anyone any money. BTW if I do ever get Unity3d working I'm going to attempt a hex-based game, but I will make my own IP, and I'd be up for licensing the source. ;)

Spoiler: show
Rob, actually I'd just give you the source for free lol.

Also I'm not so great or fast a programmer, so nobody here start queuing for a beta or anything. :D

And if anyone knows how to fix the "Couldn't resolve host name" error with Unity3d, please let me know. ^.^;


Each answer raises more questions, but more of the puzzle will be filled in gradually so the questions will shift towards the unanswerable ones. Just don't make the mistake of answering every question immediately. Let some linger.


I really hope DigDoug doesn't die. I guess he has another story coming, but that could be a prequel. Plz don't kill Doug. :D He rocks. :D No pun intended.

The 25 days for some simple vegetable crops is interesting. We knew the MK didn't have farms like the Erfworld farms which are a special type of hex or something, like mines. But that's fairly realistic assuming perpetual summer and some 'cheats' like the plant not resetting all the way down to seedling, sort of like how the Sims currently works (plants start as seedlings, grow to full grown, harvesting resets them to full grown rather than seedling.) I think part of Dove's farming trouble was the soil quality, some might be the light - her vardo was described as parked over the wild onions, though my guess is that it wasn't meant literally - they're still probably shaded, and also wild plants produce less than farm crops. I'm guessing the largest drawback is the space. It takes 1 acre to feed 1 person for 1 year, roughly, in our world, and Dove only has a tiny little garden patch, which may very well be shaded by Dove's vardo and any nearby trees. Edit: She's growing the wrong types of crops for that soil and her personal nature. Or at least she was. For an acidic soil I would have tried grapes or something, and turned them into (quality) wine.

I'm guessing the carnies would do better with one large community Carny Garden but they're too independent minded and focused on upkeep to cooperate like that. But then, who wouldn't be? Miss a day of work or a meal and you might CEASE TO EXIST. :D


I am looking forward to Parson killing Charlie because I'm kinda tired of hearing about him by this point. He's so booping "mysterious" so all we ever learn is stuff we already know, and all we ever see is him acting like an ass. And I have the suspicion that Rob will, sooner or later, turn all that around and make us see Charlie in a new light.
Last edited by Beeskee on Thu May 22, 2014 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Beeskee
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 485
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 1:43 am

arbo wrote:
balder wrote:Rob says a lot of things, but then his boss (the story) tells him no.


LIKE A BOSS.

Even the Highest of Titans must bow before the power of the Story who Tells him.

It's awesome to witness an author at work with this kind of mindset about his craft. No wonder the results are so good.

Hm, this actually fits nicely the theory about Carnymancers having medium awareness and the debate of Fate versus Free Will.

Fate = the Story

Free Will = the Fourth Wall

Without the Story there would be no Erfworld. And the Plot is already decided in the minds of the Titans up to Book 5. That is Fate.

But characters are infamous for ocasionally doing stuff against the author’s wishes. Several creators acknowledge this. That is Free Will.

Predictamancers, who have affinity with the Rough Draft and can sense Plot Points in the future, work diligently to unfold the Story. They’re agents of Fate.

Carnymancers, who can see everything is a Show put on for us and know fantastic Plot Twists do write themselves, are okay with derailing the Story. They’re marauders of Free Will.

Both want the Story to continue, the show to go on, so Erfworld doesn’t disband.

Toolism would say the purpose of Life is to be lived in Really Interesting Ways, so the Titans who are watching keep the series from being cancelled. (say, with 300% Kickstarter funding.)

I feel Erfworld is as much about storytelling as it is about boardgaming.

In your other post on the subject, you mentioned that you didn't think Signamancers had the same understanding that Carnies did. My theory on that is this.

Carnies work backstage. They see how every trick is pulled, what every prop and costume is for. Alterations they make are to the mechanics of the story.

Signamancers work the story itself. They don't deal with the how of things, but the why. They see symbolism, themes, and archetypes.

Two sides of the same coin. Carnies don't know why the things happen, and Signamancers don't know how. But both see that it is a story taking place, and that gives them the ability to alter how the story turns out.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 22, 2014 2:29 am

Lipkin wrote:Signamancers work the story itself. They don't deal with the how of things, but the why. They see symbolism, themes, and archetypes.
I agree, but I think we should look at Signamancy by trying to understand Hippiemancy as a whole. Judging by what we've seen of Flower Power and the fact that Hippiemancy has the elements Life and Matter, I think that Hippiemancy is focused on the physical aspects of living creatures, including the structure and workings of the brain. Hippiemancy can't actually read thoughts because that's a matter for Life and Motion, the activity of living creatures, but Hippiemancy can rewire a person's mind as we've seen from Flower Power, both with the heroine buds and taking away people's aggression. To me it looks like effecting a person's emotions, not their thoughts, just as we saw people thinking about violence but unable to bring themselves to actually do anything about it while under the effect of Olive's magic.

I think looking at Flower Power should give us clues about the nature of Signamancy, since in some sense both Florists and Signamancers are doing the same thing, just with different specialties. Of course the shape of a person's body is important to Signamancy, but I think that's actually only the tip of the iceberg. Fate axis disciplines tend to be deep and subtle, so I think that what Signamancers are really doing is understanding the part of the Erfworlder brain that connects experiences to meanings. I'm talking about the subconscious awareness that allows and Erfworlder to see a sword and instantly understand that it is a sword rather than just a pattern of light on his eyes. The same thing applies to seeing a written word and knowing what it represents, maybe all reading is a form of natural Signamancy. I suspect that Signamancy is in the eye of the beholder; a person's Signamancy is not magic within the person, but rather the magic that happens when people look at that person and judge him by appearance.

Therefore my favorite theory of Signamancy is that Signamancers have a very deep awareness of the meanings of everything they see, as well as a deep awareness of what other people will understand from the things they see because Signamancers understand the mind in much the same way that Florists can control the mind.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Keighvin1 » Thu May 22, 2014 3:35 am

0beron wrote:
multilis wrote:
Keighvin1 wrote:....we have seen a grand total of 2 dirtamancers,..

Grand total of 3, http://www.erfworld.com/2013/07/book-2-page-113/
That's what Multilis meant. In the main comic, we have only seen 2 Dirtamancers. So not exactly a huge sample size from which to say "it's odd that we haven't seen Digdoug among those Dirtamancers shown already".


Umm, I think you mean me, not multilis.
Keighvin1
YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby arbo » Thu May 22, 2014 7:45 am

Lipkin wrote:In your other post on the subject, you mentioned that you didn't think Signamancers had the same understanding that Carnies did. My theory on that is this.

Carnies work backstage. They see how every trick is pulled, what every prop and costume is for. Alterations they make are to the mechanics of the story.

Signamancers work the story itself. They don't deal with the how of things, but the why. They see symbolism, themes, and archetypes.

Two sides of the same coin. Carnies don't know why the things happen, and Signamancers don't know how. But both see that it is a story taking place, and that gives them the ability to alter how the story turns out.


Actually, I think Signamancers work as Costume Designers, Makeup Artists, Property Masters and Set Dressers. They have an active understanding of why things in Erfworld look the way they do, why people change appearance over time in a world where there's no aging, and why units get bonuses when they dress up for battle. They know the reason: everything is a show. No only there is an audience to please, but sometimes even the Titanic artist will change and all of Erfworld's Signamancy will adapt following that. I bet a Signamancer would have a field day explaining why Sizemore lost his pants in the Book 2 Epilogues.

Disclaimer 1: The "signing contracts" part of Signamancy is an entirely separate field. Going along with the Medium Awareness theory, we should acknowledge it is essentially a Semantic Superpower, which is fine. If this world is not only a board game but also a narrative, it's almost a law that a few mechanics will make Canon for no good reason beyond they make good puns.

Disclaimer 2: I'm leaning heavily on Dove's assertion that only Carnymancers and Signamancers can see everything is a show. Wasn't for that, I'd think Predictamancers fit the bill of working with the story itself, dealing with the why of things. But not altering how the story turns out. That's a job for Retconjurers... oh wait ;)
“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”
User avatar
arbo
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm
Location: Recife, Brazil

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby arbo » Thu May 22, 2014 8:09 am

Lilwik wrote:Judging by what we've seen of Flower Power and the fact that Hippiemancy has the elements Life and Matter, I think that Hippiemancy is focused on the physical aspects of living creatures, including the structure and workings of the brain. Hippiemancy can't actually read thoughts because that's a matter for Life and Motion, the activity of living creatures, but Hippiemancy can rewire a person's mind as we've seen from Flower Power, both with the heroine buds and taking away people's aggression. To me it looks like effecting a person's emotions, not their thoughts, just as we saw people thinking about violence but unable to bring themselves to actually do anything about it while under the effect of Olive's magic.


Even leaving aside all "Erfworld is a narrative" speculation, it can be simpler than that if we follow the "Erfworld is a board game" angle (a given for everyone, I guess).

No need to seek elaborate explanations for magical mechanics in biology, physics or psychology. The reason units cannot engage under Flower Power is not because their brain gets rewired. It's because the rulebook says so.

When I play Game of Thrones: the Board Game and a Storm of Swords card turns up, I don't try to explain why perfectly fine troops in the field suddenly cannot use Defense orders next turn. I could try and come up with an explanation based on weather or something, but in the end, in a board game the rules are the laws of nature.

Those troops will sit on their butts while the invaders slaughter them and accept it as one of the facts of life :D
“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”
User avatar
arbo
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm
Location: Recife, Brazil

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby 0beron » Thu May 22, 2014 9:24 am

Keighvin1 wrote:Umm, I think you mean me, not multilis.
derrrrrrrrp. you are correct, nevermind the sleep-deprived poster behind the curtain!
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3196
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 1:09 pm

arbo wrote:
Lipkin wrote:In your other post on the subject, you mentioned that you didn't think Signamancers had the same understanding that Carnies did. My theory on that is this.

Carnies work backstage. They see how every trick is pulled, what every prop and costume is for. Alterations they make are to the mechanics of the story.

Signamancers work the story itself. They don't deal with the how of things, but the why. They see symbolism, themes, and archetypes.

Two sides of the same coin. Carnies don't know why the things happen, and Signamancers don't know how. But both see that it is a story taking place, and that gives them the ability to alter how the story turns out.


Actually, I think Signamancers work as Costume Designers, Makeup Artists, Property Masters and Set Dressers. They have an active understanding of why things in Erfworld look the way they do, why people change appearance over time in a world where there's no aging, and why units get bonuses when they dress up for battle. They know the reason: everything is a show. No only there is an audience to please, but sometimes even the Titanic artist will change and all of Erfworld's Signamancy will adapt following that. I bet a Signamancer would have a field day explaining why Sizemore lost his pants in the Book 2 Epilogues.

I agree with your first sentence. The rest, not as much.

In one of the text updates, a unit tried cutting off their hair. It grew back the next day. Chances are good that a Signamancer would be able to make the haircut stick. Expanding on that, If Parson is a Signamancer, I'm betting he could make one of Gobwin Knob's empty buildings superficially look like a Dunkin Donuts, spend juice on it, and then donuts and coffee would start popping. Like a Dollmancer, I think Signamancers needs to have raw materials before they can cause any actual changes.

Whereas a Carny changes the mechanics, the behind the scenes of the show, a Signamancer changes what the audience is seeing first, and the mechanics follow.

Carnies are like the Marx Brothers in their films. They know they are in a movie, they know what they do has impact on the plot, but they do whatever they want. In the final act of Duck Soup, Groucho Marx is wearing a different hat in every shot. Props that he has no good reason to have access to suddenly appear in his hand for the sake of a joke. The Marxs do what they want, and the narrative bends over backwards to keep up.

A Signamancer on the other hand, plays within the narrative. They see they are in a story, they know that they themselves, and everyone around them is a character. They see the roles that everyone has to play in the narrative. They just can't see the script. Knowing what part everyone is meant to play, they can alter the story by subverting expectations.

Just like a Marx Brother, a Carny can break the rules and do whatever they want. But the story will only move forward once they play along with the role they have been cast in. Everything unusual that a Marx Brother does in their movies is mostly ignored by non-Marxes, and the story continues as if the president, doctor, opera agent, whatever, wasn't a lunatic. The story chugs along. A Signamancer can look at the role that they, and everyone else has been cast in, and use that knowledge to their advantage. They don't rebel and break the rules, but rather use the story against itself.

That was long, and it's mostly unsupported by the comic, but that's how I see the difference of medium awareness between Carnies and Signamancers. A Signamancer sees the settings and roles, and can change how those are fulfilled, but not the roles themselves. A Carny sees nothing is real, and can break the rules, but the show goes on regardless of their dickery. A Predictamancer can see the story that is being told, but not how it will unfold, because they don't see the show, just the script before it is put into motion by the cast. Sorry, am I making sense?
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby s-dub » Thu May 22, 2014 1:25 pm

I don't know if this has been suggested, but maybe DigDoug will end up being Parson's ally vs. Charlie.
s-dub
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:33 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby arbo » Thu May 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Lipkin wrote:(...) make one of Gobwin Knob's empty buildings superficially look like a Dunkin Donuts, spend juice on it, and then donuts and coffee would start popping.


I like this. Signamancy making function follow form?

Lipkin wrote:Sorry, am I making sense?


Sure you are. I can see myself agreeing with everything you said, save for a couple minor points:

"Knowing what part everyone is meant to play, [Signamancers] can alter the story by subverting expectations." --> (I prefer) --> "can take advantage of scene directions by playing with expectations." The way I see it, really altering the story is something only Titans are capable of; but filling roles in surprising ways is powerful, like Wanda going Thriller to lead the uncroaked dance fight.

"Just like a Marx Brother, a Carny can break the rules and do whatever they want." --> (I prefer) --> "can do whatever they want, regardless of rules, as long as they are off-screen." Discussions here have convinced me that Carnies don't break rules -- that's just what they tell everyone they do. What they actually do is still a mystery. My bet is they are completely unconstrained as long as the audience is kept in the dark. As you said, they work behind the scenes.
“Run this same calculation ten times in a row. Go.”
User avatar
arbo
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm
Location: Recife, Brazil

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby bladestorm » Thu May 22, 2014 1:59 pm

CarniDollMancer wrote:It isn't that they are not used at all. The Casters deal between themselves in a barter unit called a Rand, but a single bowl of community soup is not worth an entire Rand. Instead they give a few of the more traditional currency as a way to make up for the ingredients they could not contribute.

Edited to add this thought: Also, if they did not use Schmuckers at all, how would a fresh Barbarian with a purse have any money in the MK. They would be unable to get Rands for the Schmuckers they already have.


This may also break into the upkeep rules and Rands issues. It seems upkeep can be paid in either a variable amount of shmuckers (modified by eating and rations), or by a single Rand. No interchange at all between shmuckers and Rand. Turn 1 your upkeep is 50 shmuckers, but you eat a full meal so upkeep next turn is 25 (totally made up numbers for easy mathemancy). 1 Rand covers your upkeep for that turn, no matter what that upkeep is. You could use your Rand to cover the 50 shmuckers for the first turn and then use your shmucker to pay for round 2, saving the Rand you may have earned on turn 2 for turn 3 when you jump back up to 50 shmuckers a turn for upkeep.

On the low end of the economy, a single Rand is extremely valuable. At the upper end, it is just another value to keep track of. Isaac seems successful enough of a caster that he can hire himself out for short-term, highly lucrative contracts to be able to cover his upkeep for hundreds of turns at a time, and can get those contracts basically every 30 turns. He's not hurting to cover his upkeep, even at his level. Carnies don't seem to be so readily hired, so they resort to other tactics to ensure their survival.
bladestorm
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 10:11 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 2:29 pm

arbo wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Sorry, am I making sense?


Sure you are. I can see myself agreeing with everything you said, save for a couple minor points:

"Knowing what part everyone is meant to play, [Signamancers] can alter the story by subverting expectations." --> (I prefer) --> "can take advantage of scene directions by playing with expectations." The way I see it, really altering the story is something only Titans are capable of; but filling roles in surprising ways is powerful, like Wanda going Thriller to lead the uncroaked dance fight.

"Just like a Marx Brother, a Carny can break the rules and do whatever they want." --> (I prefer) --> "can do whatever they want, regardless of rules, as long as they are off-screen." Discussions here have convinced me that Carnies don't break rules -- that's just what they tell everyone they do. What they actually do is still a mystery. My bet is they are completely unconstrained as long as the audience is kept in the dark. As you said, they work behind the scenes.

Yes to the first, no to the second.

About Signamancers, you only rephrased what I was saying. A Signamancer doesn't truly know the plan, so he can't change it. He can only try to change the way he sees things playing out by doing something unusual or unexpected. Either way, the end result is the way the story intended. His methods are just vastly different than if a non-Signamancer were in his role.

As for Carnies, no, I think they break the rules. You are suggesting they are literal avatars of Deus Ex Machina. Seems like you are suggesting that they can do whatever they want, as long as we the readers don't know how. When I say they work behind the scenes, I mean that Erfworlders don't know how they do things, not that we don't. I think it's like the Matrix. Some rules can be bent, others can be broken. But without any rules at all, there would be no story. If Carnies were unconstrained, they wouldn't be impoverished. I think Carnies can break the rules, but ultimately the show will continue despite their interference. the most they can achieve is a delay. And I think Charlie is trying to delay the story as many times as he can.

Carnies can't fight fate, they can just delay it. Maybe indefinitely, but not permanently. Constant struggle. I think A Signamancer could probably be better at fighting fate. They wouldn't prevent it, but rather bring it about in an unexpected way. Like Dove tried to do at Homekey, but actually succeeding.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 22, 2014 2:49 pm

Lipkin wrote:If Parson is a Signamancer, I'm betting he could make one of Gobwin Knob's empty buildings superficially look like a Dunkin Donuts, spend juice on it, and then donuts and coffee would start popping. Like a Dollmancer, I think Signamancers needs to have raw materials before they can cause any actual changes.
I can't believe that. That power seems too Titanic. You say that Signamancers need raw materials, but apparently it is only superficial raw materials and the outcome is the world bending to the Signamancer's will. If I thought the truth about Signamancy would be revealed any time soon, I'd bet a lot that Signamancy does not work this way.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 3:25 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:If Parson is a Signamancer, I'm betting he could make one of Gobwin Knob's empty buildings superficially look like a Dunkin Donuts, spend juice on it, and then donuts and coffee would start popping. Like a Dollmancer, I think Signamancers needs to have raw materials before they can cause any actual changes.
I can't believe that. That power seems too Titanic. You say that Signamancers need raw materials, but apparently it is only superficial raw materials and the outcome is the world bending to the Signamancer's will. If I thought the truth about Signamancy would be revealed any time soon, I'd bet a lot that Signamancy does not work this way.

Because creating life out of cloth or crap is any more out there.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Finwe » Thu May 22, 2014 3:48 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:If Parson is a Signamancer, I'm betting he could make one of Gobwin Knob's empty buildings superficially look like a Dunkin Donuts, spend juice on it, and then donuts and coffee would start popping. Like a Dollmancer, I think Signamancers needs to have raw materials before they can cause any actual changes.
I can't believe that. That power seems too Titanic. You say that Signamancers need raw materials, but apparently it is only superficial raw materials and the outcome is the world bending to the Signamancer's will. If I thought the truth about Signamancy would be revealed any time soon, I'd bet a lot that Signamancy does not work this way.


From a gaming mechanics perspective, that would be pretty trivial stuff - hardly worthy of being called "Titanic". You're causing the city to pop a kind of ration it doesn't normally pop. At best that might give you some sort mild bonus to morale. If a signamancer could write "ICBM" on a grain silo and end up with a weapon that can eliminate enemy cities anywhere in the world, that would be another matter.
Finwe
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:14 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 22, 2014 3:58 pm

Lipkin wrote:Because creating life out of cloth or crap is any more out there.
I'm sure that Dollamancers and Dirtamancers put work into making that happen. Surely a golem doesn't move just because it looks like a person; there's some magical mechanism at work inside the golem that makes it operate. We've seen something similar in Book 0 with how Croakamancy was described: the Croakamancer doesn't just command the dead bodies to stand; she needs to fix their bodies to make them move. It seems that in Erfworld if you want to make something happen, even by magic, you still need to actually make it happen, not just make it look like it will happen. Building a robot and having it move is not strange.

Finwe wrote:From a gaming mechanics perspective, that would be pretty trivial stuff - hardly worthy of being called "Titanic". You're causing the city to pop a kind of ration it doesn't normally pop. At best that might give you some sort mild bonus to morale.
It's not Titanic because of the effect. It's Titanic because of how little effort went into getting the effect. Simply putting up some signs and expecting reality to change to match would be massively overpowered, and not just because they could create ICBMs. They would have the power to do anything as long as they knew how that thing should look. They don't need to understand how it works on the inside; it's so much power for such shallow effort. Every time we've learned details of magic so far it has been about the caster's deep understanding of how reality works, so I'm almost sure that if all that Signamancers know about are appearances then appearances are all that Signamancers control.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 4:22 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Because creating life out of cloth or crap is any more out there.
I'm sure that Dollamancers and Dirtamancers put work into making that happen. Surely a golem doesn't move just because it looks like a person; there's some magical mechanism at work inside the golem that makes it operate. We've seen something similar in Book 0 with how Croakamancy was described: the Croakamancer doesn't just command the dead bodies to stand; she needs to fix their bodies to make them move. It seems that in Erfworld if you want to make something happen, even by magic, you still need to actually make it happen, not just make it look like it will happen. Building a robot and having it move is not strange.

Finwe wrote:From a gaming mechanics perspective, that would be pretty trivial stuff - hardly worthy of being called "Titanic". You're causing the city to pop a kind of ration it doesn't normally pop. At best that might give you some sort mild bonus to morale.
It's not Titanic because of the effect. It's Titanic because of how little effort went into getting the effect. Simply putting up some signs and expecting reality to change to match would be massively overpowered, and not just because they could create ICBMs. They would have the power to do anything as long as they knew how that thing should look. They don't need to understand how it works on the inside; it's so much power for such shallow effort. Every time we've learned details of magic so far it has been about the caster's deep understanding of how reality works, so I'm almost sure that if all that Signamancers know about are appearances then appearances are all that Signamancers control.

You are the one making it simple, not me.

Creating a doll is no different than making cosmetic changes to a building. It takes non-magical prep work before juice is spent to cause an effect. I never claimed that it would be a simple process, like storing juice in a tower. That's you putting words in my mouth.

And a Croakamancer doesn't need to fix a body to make it move. It just takes less juice to do so, and they'll last longer. A mass cast uses juice to hold the bodies together, rather than paying attention to detail that will make the body hold together on it's own.

By that logic, the more effort that was put into making the thing as real as possible before casting, the less juice that would need to be spent. And the bigger the project, the harder and more juice would be required.
User avatar
Lipkin
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am

Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby TurtlesAWD » Thu May 22, 2014 5:37 pm

In light of this update, I'm now leaning more towards what happened being a clever ploy by Posbrake than a last minute betrayal by Charlie. Although Charlie likes getting paid, I think he does have a soft spot for Carnies and carny-sympathetic sides. Burning bridges like those would be bad for future business, so even if his concerns are primarily mercenary, he would need a substantial immediate payout to risk it, in my opinion. Plus not even Dove seems to know what Charlie would have done to kill Posbrake with what he had available... though there is still the potential issue of a traitor.

As for the "Dove's mark" comment of last update, I actually don't read anything too sinister into that, because that's how I would expect Dove to explain Digdoug's presence to other Carnies. It's not like Carnies are a big friendly club who only lie to people who aren't Carnies after all
TurtlesAWD
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:44 am

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Oliolli and 9 guests