Digdoug - Episode 21

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Thu May 22, 2014 5:38 pm

Lipkin wrote:By that logic, the more effort that was put into making the thing as real as possible before casting, the less juice that would need to be spent. And the bigger the project, the harder and more juice would be required.

Creating something in Erfworld that had never existed before is where it starts becoming Titanic, in my mind...
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Thu May 22, 2014 6:04 pm

TurtlesAWD wrote:In light of this update, I'm now leaning more towards what happened being a clever ploy by Posbrake than a last minute betrayal by Charlie.
I'm thinking the opposite. Posbrake may have been clever, but he was probably not so clever that he could pull off something like faking the end of Homekey without Dove knowing about it, and this update makes it seem pretty clear that Dove is out of the loop. Plus, why would Posbrake do that? I think he's almost certainly dead. I still think that Dove was trying to take advantage of Digdoug, but it seems that Dove has been honest about everything else.

TurtlesAWD wrote:Although Charlie likes getting paid, I think he does have a soft spot for Carnies and carny-sympathetic sides.
You mean that Charlie cares more about other Carnymancers than he cares about money? That seems unlikely.

TurtlesAWD wrote:Burning bridges like those would be bad for future business, so even if his concerns are primarily mercenary, he would need a substantial immediate payout to risk it, in my opinion.
He destroyed a side willing to hire Carnymancers, which is a rare and precious thing for Carnymancers, but for Charlie it's probably not a issue. Many sides are willing to hire Charlie and as a mercenary it's his job to attack people, so he probably burns bridges every day.

TurtlesAWD wrote:Plus not even Dove seems to know what Charlie would have done to kill Posbrake with what he had available... though there is still the potential issue of a traitor.
That's the new biggest mystery. As much as I think Posbrake must be dead, I just can't work out exactly why he would be dead. That's the only thing preventing me from putting some quatloos on Posbrake being dead.
Last edited by Lilwik on Thu May 22, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 6:09 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Lipkin wrote:By that logic, the more effort that was put into making the thing as real as possible before casting, the less juice that would need to be spent. And the bigger the project, the harder and more juice would be required.

Creating something in Erfworld that had never existed before is where it starts becoming Titanic, in my mind...

Casters come up with new stuff all the time. Digdoug's lightning trap for example.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Thu May 22, 2014 6:23 pm

Lipkin wrote:Casters come up with new stuff all the time. Digdoug's lightning trap for example.

What makes you think the lightning trap is new? All it is is a terrain-based trap, something that is a basic part of Dirtamancy. The only thing unusual about the one he built in Homekey is where it was put, not what was made.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby TurtlesAWD » Thu May 22, 2014 6:23 pm

Charlie as a character does seem to have some concerns other than just getting paid, or at least he does once Parson enters the picture. I think I remember Parson and Maggie talking about how thinkamancers work for individual sides while not betraying the Great Minds and I wonder if the situation with the Carnies doesn't parallel it in some way, given that Charlie in many ways seems to be like the Chief Carnymancer. I also forgot to mention it in my other post, but I was taking Dove's other appearance in book 2 into consideration when she was talking about Charlie needing to have an explanation for what happened if she expected her to work with him again. So at the very least... I imagine he has an explanation even if he did assassinate Posbrake.

I have a slight suspicion Posbrake could be working with Charlie to pull off something sneaky, perhaps for a pretty substantial payout. I just have a hard time thinking of what that could be that would require keeping Dove and Digdoug in the dark. Unless Posbrake was keeping it as secret as possible so the traitor didn't find out, no matter who it was?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 6:37 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Casters come up with new stuff all the time. Digdoug's lightning trap for example.

What makes you think the lightning trap is new? All it is is a terrain-based trap, something that is a basic part of Dirtamancy. The only thing unusual about the one he built in Homekey is where it was put, not what was made.

Could have sworn using the storm as a trap was Doug's invention. Still, the point stands. Casters invent new things, and bring them into being.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lamech » Thu May 22, 2014 7:42 pm

For one I highly doubt anyone has made the exact doll creation that's in Translovito.
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/10/epilogue-19-caesar-and-bill/
Creating a Doughnut shop isn't particularly OP. Some extra rations or something pops. That seems like an awfully reasonable use of signamancy. Make a place look like doughnuts should be there so it does. Something similar to how Wanda got the hat to stay here.
http://www.erfworld.com/2012/01/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-023/
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 22, 2014 8:05 pm

Lamech wrote:For one I highly doubt anyone has made the exact doll creation that's in Translovito.
http://www.erfworld.com/2013/10/epilogue-19-caesar-and-bill/
Creating a Doughnut shop isn't particularly OP. Some extra rations or something pops. That seems like an awfully reasonable use of signamancy. Make a place look like doughnuts should be there so it does. Something similar to how Wanda got the hat to stay here.
http://www.erfworld.com/2012/01/inner-peace-through-superior-firepower-%E2%80%93-episode-023/

I wouldn't even expect extra rations. There is a butcher shop that causes meat to pop, I figure it would just help dictate what variety would be available.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby TurtlesAWD » Thu May 22, 2014 9:36 pm

Although "creating something from nothing" is generally a power we attribute to gods in fantasy settings, I don't think it's necessarily "titanic" in this sense because the most important thing they created for this universe would be rules. If, as a part of those rules, other casters can create something from nothing that has never existed before (but still works within the framework of rules that apply to the world), then I wouldn't really consider it a titanic power.

Things that seem to bend or twist the rules to a greater extent are perceived by the residents of this world as being related to the titans however, such as the arkentools which from what we've seen usually have some overpowered effect. Thus the wielders believe they serve the titans' purpose.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Fri May 23, 2014 1:28 am

arbo wrote:Fate = the Story

Free Will = the Fourth Wall

Without the Story there would be no Erfworld. And the Plot is already decided in the minds of the Titans up to Book 5. That is Fate.

But characters are infamous for ocasionally doing stuff against the author’s wishes. Several creators acknowledge this. That is Free Will.

This has me thinking about Love, which Clay said does strange things with the dice. Is it aligned with Fate or independent of it? It doesn't seem to be aligned with Free Will: we keep seeing characters confused or tormented by their own feelings, including for enemy units.

I suspect love stories are for the most part plotted, and authors tend to be taken by surprise by the effort required to make their unfolding seem realistic.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Omnimancer » Fri May 23, 2014 3:04 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:If Parson is a Signamancer, I'm betting he could make one of Gobwin Knob's empty buildings superficially look like a Dunkin Donuts, spend juice on it, and then donuts and coffee would start popping. Like a Dollmancer, I think Signamancers needs to have raw materials before they can cause any actual changes.
I can't believe that. That power seems too Titanic. You say that Signamancers need raw materials, but apparently it is only superficial raw materials and the outcome is the world bending to the Signamancer's will. If I thought the truth about Signamancy would be revealed any time soon, I'd bet a lot that Signamancy does not work this way.


There's actually evidence to suggest this. After Wanda upgraded Goodminton's tower she upgraded it to start popping hot chocolate as a permanent amenity: http://www.erfworld.com/2012/02/inner-p ... isode-024/

So it's possible if you built a Dunkin Donuts in a city hex it would start popping donuts and coffee. I'm not sure whether it would pop finished donuts though, or just the raw ingredients to make donuts like flour/oil/sugar/etc. and you'd need a baker to actually make them. Also the amount of food that pops might be dependent on nearby farm hexes, rather than it making its own food.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Fri May 23, 2014 3:21 am

Omnimancer wrote:There's actually evidence to suggest this. After Wanda upgraded Goodminton's tower she upgraded it to start popping hot chocolate as a permanent amenity: B0E24
It doesn't say that, and I seriously doubt that it's true. All it says is: "In Wanda's suite, a silver chocolate service sat upon a side table. When she'd boosted the tower, a few such nice little changes in design, decor, and accouterments had crept in from her mind's eye." It's talking about stuff, like cups and dishes and a pot for pouring chocolate, and stuff like that is Stuffamancy that surely came from the scroll.

It doesn't say that chocolate automatically pops to go with the dishes. I imagine that Erfworlders have some way of controlling what kind of food pops in a city much like how they control what units pop there, or maybe there's natural Moneymancy allowing them to convert shmuckers to food. However that works, I expect that the chocolate service had to be filled with chocolate by a courtier of some sort. I don't think we've ever seen food pop exactly where it is needed except for the daily rations.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Beeskee » Fri May 23, 2014 5:57 am

Especially for that, since it's "a silver chocolate service" - like a tea service, it's a bunch of bowls and cups and a kettle and stuff sitting empty on a side table.

I do think cities can probably be modified to pop certain items, goods, or foods. We know nearby farms can make certain foods available. I imagine a bit of shmuckers or some juice from the appropriate caster can smooth the way towards having whatever rarer items pop.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby GWvsJohn » Fri May 23, 2014 6:39 am

Lilwik wrote:
Omnimancer wrote:There's actually evidence to suggest this. After Wanda upgraded Goodminton's tower she upgraded it to start popping hot chocolate as a permanent amenity: B0E24
It doesn't say that, and I seriously doubt that it's true. All it says is: "In Wanda's suite, a silver chocolate service sat upon a side table. When she'd boosted the tower, a few such nice little changes in design, decor, and accouterments had crept in from her mind's eye." It's talking about stuff, like cups and dishes and a pot for pouring chocolate, and stuff like that is Stuffamancy that surely came from the scroll.

It doesn't say that chocolate automatically pops to go with the dishes. I imagine that Erfworlders have some way of controlling what kind of food pops in a city much like how they control what units pop there, or maybe there's natural Moneymancy allowing them to convert shmuckers to food. However that works, I expect that the chocolate service had to be filled with chocolate by a courtier of some sort. I don't think we've ever seen food pop exactly where it is needed except for the daily rations.


You are 100% wrong. Wanda and Firebaugh drink chocolate in http://www.erfworld.com/2012/02/inner-p ... firepower-–-episode-025/
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Omnimancer » Fri May 23, 2014 9:18 am

GWvsJohn wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Omnimancer wrote:There's actually evidence to suggest this. After Wanda upgraded Goodminton's tower she upgraded it to start popping hot chocolate as a permanent amenity: B0E24
It doesn't say that, and I seriously doubt that it's true. All it says is: "In Wanda's suite, a silver chocolate service sat upon a side table. When she'd boosted the tower, a few such nice little changes in design, decor, and accouterments had crept in from her mind's eye." It's talking about stuff, like cups and dishes and a pot for pouring chocolate, and stuff like that is Stuffamancy that surely came from the scroll.

It doesn't say that chocolate automatically pops to go with the dishes. I imagine that Erfworlders have some way of controlling what kind of food pops in a city much like how they control what units pop there, or maybe there's natural Moneymancy allowing them to convert shmuckers to food. However that works, I expect that the chocolate service had to be filled with chocolate by a courtier of some sort. I don't think we've ever seen food pop exactly where it is needed except for the daily rations.


You are 100% wrong. Wanda and Firebaugh drink chocolate in http://www.erfworld.com/2012/02/inner-p ... firepower-–-episode-025/


Yep, Goodminton popped chocolate from that point on.

However I don't think this was free food. My theory is that in addition to shmuckers, cities automatically produce some food each turn, capable of paying for a specific amount of upkeep. Farms let them pop even more food. Erfworld doesn't care what form this food takes, as long as it's worth the same amount of upkeep relief. So minor changes to building signamancy can alter what food pops if you have a preference in taste.

When Wanda boosted the tower, she may have increased the amount of food the city pops each turn. So she was able to subconsciously select what form she wanted this extra food to take.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby (name here) » Fri May 23, 2014 12:37 pm

TurtlesAWD wrote:In light of this update, I'm now leaning more towards what happened being a clever ploy by Posbrake than a last minute betrayal by Charlie. Although Charlie likes getting paid, I think he does have a soft spot for Carnies and carny-sympathetic sides. Burning bridges like those would be bad for future business, so even if his concerns are primarily mercenary, he would need a substantial immediate payout to risk it, in my opinion. Plus not even Dove seems to know what Charlie would have done to kill Posbrake with what he had available... though there is still the potential issue of a traitor.


I'm also up for some kind of ploy by Posbrake, although not necessarily a survivable one for him personally. Charlie would love a chance to get paid five times.

Though that can't entirely explain it; Posbrake would probably only go for a sacrifice play if he were really desperate, and things were looking pretty good. Unless he signed a long-term contract with someone he didn't tell anyone about and is cheating them on payment, I don't see how sacrificing himself or survivably doing a Side shell game would help. However, there is a fairly obvious explaination for how Charlie could back him into a corner by being able to overwhelm the city for real: he could bring more Archons. They can veil, after all, so there's nothing actually stopping him from having enough in the wings to obliterate the defenders without taking a single loss. Or, if his target is just Posbrake, all he needs to do is get around the protection spell. The straightforward if risky method would be to swarm him in melee combat now that his elite guard, chief warlord, and dirtamancer are no longer avaliable, but that would cost Archons and require Posbrake to not hunker down in the dungeons so they could get to him without needing to overrun the defenders. On the other hand,
“And I shall have one spell upon me,” said Posbrake, with intense conviction. “A Carnymancy spell. A spell that breaks the rules. A spell that says, ‘this unit, for this turn, cannot be hit by any ranged attack.”
[...]
“I will stand in full view, daring those ranged flyers of his to take a shot at collecting Numloch’s bounty. If they do, then the Prediction is still fulfilled, and our financial worries are over.” The King picked up his coffee cup and sipped it. “So I sincerely hope he tries. He may indeed be a treacherous schemer, but he has no idea what a little Carnymancy can do to one’s best-laid plans.”


Posbrake tempted fate pretty hard there, and Charlie knows Carnymancy better than Dove. He could easily have found a way around it. I see three:

1. Definition of hit. If someone used a ranged attack with a rider or splash, it might "miss" but still inflict damage. Since Dove and Posbrake are pretty bright, I expect the spell also covers splash damage, but riders on a miss might be rare enough to slip their minds or it might have taken more juice and they figured the Archons couldn't croak him with rider effects.
2. Indirect attack. If they bring down a building on top of or under him, that might not count as a ranged attack. They wouldn't have been terribly concerned about that when crafting the spell, because Charlie would need to drop the tower and croak lots of Homekey units to do that during the staged battle and probably make that a losing proposition.
3. Foolamancy. It's not an attack, but used properly it could make him walk off a ledge.

Finally, Charlie could have just gotten rid of the spell or used his own. Like with the Carnymancy card game, when you change the rules someone can change them again to make your change backfire. "For this turn, this unit takes damage on misses instead of hits."
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby multilis » Fri May 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Still possible that Posbrake is still alive and barbarian even if capital fell. Or he could have turned to another side.

We already had FAQ defeat a much bigger side after FAQ capital was taken by that side.

Why should Charlie settle for getting paid 4 times if he can find a way to get paid 6+ times?

Posbrake can't take the money with him if the capital falls according to Stanley and Wanda at start of book 1, so one way or another he could spend it if he can't hold his own capital.

PS: If Posbrake was alive, Duv might even know, might be part of plan/contract that she can't say. Possible that Posbrake somehow faked his own death to make going after enemy capital plan work better.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri May 23, 2014 1:48 pm

multilis wrote:Still possible that Posbrake is still alive and barbarian even if capital fell. Or he could have turned to another side.

Huh...I hadn't even considered that Delkey might have succeeded in turning Posbrake to their side, like their original goal was. He seemed about to do exactly that before the lightning stopped him from surrendering. And, with his only casters in the MK, he may not have had time to have them turn first...
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby multilis » Fri May 23, 2014 2:13 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
multilis wrote:Still possible that Posbrake is still alive and barbarian even if capital fell. Or he could have turned to another side.

Huh...I hadn't even considered that Delkey might have succeeded in turning Posbrake to their side, like their original goal was. He seemed about to do exactly that before the lightning stopped him from surrendering. And, with his only casters in the MK, he may not have had time to have them turn first...


Or Posbrake could turn to the side of any other neighbour including former enemy. Common in old war stories for a well respected general betrayed by his own king or emperor to defect to another side. It could even be a further away side if Charlie or someone else got paid to make it happen, eg an enemy of Delkey on other side of Delkey.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 21

Postby Lilwik » Fri May 23, 2014 4:04 pm

Omnimancer wrote:Yep, Goodminton popped chocolate from that point on.
All I see is that they had chocolate. The story doesn't say anything about popping chocolate. Maybe Wanda used Stuffamancy to create a supply of chocolate in the larder in the same way that she created the silver chocolate service and it was enough to supply them for many turns, or maybe they imported it, or maybe it's something else, but the point is that the story doesn't say where the chocolate comes from. The story certainly doesn't say that Signamancy is involved in creating the chocolate and I don't understand why we would guess that discipline when there are far more obvious candidates for producing chocolate such as Changemancy, Flower Power, and Moneymancy.
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