Duke Forecastle, Part 1

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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby spriteless » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:14 am

He lived through more turns than anyone, and yet is younger than many. Parson has lived through strange eons indeed.
T'was a splendidly speedy defection.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:17 am

It's related, because it's talking about experience. But the original post and your post Mana were talking about literal AGE, not relative experience. So Nueamin was making a related point, but I think he misunderstood and didn't realize you guys were talking age. We have no way to really judge how many battles Parson has gamed versus how many Jillian has for example. That being said though, honestly I imagine Parson is both younger AND less experienced, especially when one considers that only a tiny fraction of his gaming history involves the specific game Erfworld resembles. His power is not in the depth of his experience, it's in his style of thinking and the breadth of his experience.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby gdavge2003 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:59 am

Really excited for this arc! Keep up the good work Rob! Just had to come on and say that :D
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby khamul » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:17 am

Godzfirefly wrote:
khamul wrote:Heh, if they're just sitting around guarding the walls of a city anyway, why not try it?
Maybe there's another unconventional strategy there.

I think the reason most of us have suggested about why not to try it is that training something that is already your specialty will make you better at what you're most likely to do faster. Infantry are most likely to guard walls or fight in a field. Improving their sword-work quickly would be better for that than improving your archery slowly, especially when you can pretty easily just pop archers.


Yep, conventional strategies are conventional because they're obviously a good idea. It's hard to argue against making your stabbers better at stabbing.
That's the point of an unconventional strategy - to make that hard argument against conventional wisdom.

Yes it might cost more and take longer to train stabbers to get the archery special than it would to just pop archers: but what you have at the end is not archers. It's units which are both stabbers and archers. So they can volley, and then set spears to receive a charge: and suddenly the rock-paper-scissors of spears vs archery vs mounted just played out very differently.

Or how about training the archery special onto your cavalry? Horse archers, historically, have not been a waste of time.

Of course, all these tactics are situational, whereas it's very hard to find a situation where stabbers that are really good at stabbing are not useful. But that's the hallmark of the unconventional general, isn't it? To create the one situation where your opponent's general advantages are nullified, and your situational advantages are most effective.

And that's why a conflict between two unconventional thinkers can be so interesting - it's not just about countering the obvious moves. As the situation starts to emerge, it's about who manages to hide the situational advantages they're relying on the longest. Who can convince the other that the move they've just revealed is the actual move, not just the blind for the real one. Parson vs Charlie GAME ON.

....

Alternatively, what if you had a small group of level 1 stabbers spend all their time trying to cast from scrolls? If that gave you a chance of training them into a caster - and specifically into the discipline of the scroll - that really would be transformative.


Godzfirefly wrote:As for why Warlords don't do so...maybe they do, but maybe they have a similar issue. Maybe they're better off training specials they already have or leadership or sword-work. Maybe one more arrow in a battle, even from a Warlord's skills, isn't that important to most sides.


Artemis reckoned she could off Sylvia with a single crit. One more arrow in a battle is pointless - but when it becomes the ability to take out high level leadership at range, it seems a bit more important to me. Just ask Harald Godwinson

But I agree, in general. Specific combination of specials seem like they could be quite powerful (flying + archery) and might be worth going for, but I completely agree that it's mostly going to be a question of taste, and that mostly it's probably not worth the effort.


Godzfirefly wrote:(I actually really like the idea that a side's natural signamancy affects the specials that pop on their warlords.)

I like this theory too.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby arbo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:39 am

Prodigial_Knight wrote:(Parson is Cthulhu)


That was brilliant.

Actually, I used to scratch my head about how everyone who learned about the very concept of Parson wouldn't go insane with the Cosmic Horror of the thing, or at least freak out somewhat. Is the existence of multiple alternate worlds common knowledge in Erfworld? Wanda mentioning "anywhere in all existence" to Stanley and he being perfectly ok with that. Maggie arguing "he is not from reality" to the Thinkamancers, same thing. Well, Stanley has always been a little slow of mind… and Book 2 taught us Maggie, Wanda, Jack and the Thinkamancers always knew Parson was not the first Cthulhu in history. Sizemore didn't go insane, but that's probably him being spineless as usual. Charlie, on the other hand, is properly freaked out.

I also wonder what's keeping Parson from going insane from his own Cosmic Horror situation. Of course Stanley's requirements guaranteed Erfworld would feel perfect to him, which helps a lot, and he also keeps himself very busy. But in the middle of the night, laying in his bed, wouldn't he wonder… "if Erfworld is a byproduct of Stupidworld derived from boardgame mechanics… what if Stupidworld is itself a byproduct of somewhere else, derived from lifesim mechanics??" Or something like that. We never see him reflect much on these things. He's probably avoiding these thoughts unconsciously, which will make his sanity breakdown all much worse when Charlie reveals him all the truth.

Anyway, as an adept of the Fourth Wall Theory, this is what I believe: the summoning spell actually created Stupidworld on the spot, as the perfect story with the perfect protagonist given the specific requirements, summoned him to the main story, and destroyed Stupidworld afterwards. Can't get more Cosmic Horror than that.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:14 am

Just a point of clarification, only 4 living individuals knew about Judy: Wanda, Jack, Marie, Jillian. Plus Parson now that the Decryption loophole was discovered. Maggie and the Great Minds were not aware the spell had been cast before when they initiated their plan for Parson.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby wih » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:16 am

0beron wrote:Just a point of clarification, only 4 living individuals knew about Judy: Wanda, Jack, Marie, Jillian. Plus Parson now that the Decryption loophole was discovered. Maggie and the Great Minds were not aware the spell had been cast before when they initiated their plan for Parson.


And Charlie.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:22 am

Oh yeah of coruse haha. This is what I get for posting stuff before I've had my morning tea lol.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Free Radical » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:30 am

Lamech wrote:I tend to think that the seafarer special is not something they get to chose. The side wouldn't pop a landlubber of a warlord. That's a joke to them. I think its like the flying special one of Jills warlords had. Its just that Forecastle instead got a crit fail, instead of a crit success on his abilities.

I don't think Forecastle was a crit fail - I think it was just that he was popped in their only landlocked city.
Duke Forecastle then rode back to the city that bore his name, the city he had popped in, to patrol the mountains and keep the side safe on its only approach by land.


It seems a pretty fair bet that whether popping a seafarer warlord is something that can be designated with the cost of a few more turns, or randomly happens but Seaworld has some kind of trait that predisposes for it, popping a warlord at a coastal city as opposed to a landlocked city would factor in. I'd guess as well that Seaworld never designates the city of Forecastle for popping warlords these days.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:36 am

The thing I find the most interesting is the total absence of a caster thus far. They always seem to play a major role in the strategy or at least style of the side, so given the Queen's unusual attendance at the War Council, you'd have thought any caster they have would be there too. Or that Forecastle would have mentioned one generally speaking even if they weren't present. This leads me to suspect that either they lack one, or that its of a discipline they shun/think to be useless. Maybe some discipline that can't do much at sea, like a Florist, Dirtamancer, or Croakamancer.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Lipkin » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:12 am

Might have a Signamancer for cartography.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby sdub » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:56 am

Vreejack wrote:
sdub wrote:I wonder if the side was able to hire a caster that could shed some light on what happened to the first two fleets? Sort of like a reverse predictamancer.

I don't know if that's within the purview of discipline, but it would be powerful.


"You will have lost two fleets by now. I so predict it!" No, actually that does not seem to help.


I meant a caster that could look back into the past to see what had happened to the ships. "All your ships were sank when a huge tidal wave washed over them."
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:19 am

sdub wrote:I meant a caster that could look back into the past to see what had happened to the ships. "All your ships were sank when a huge tidal wave washed over them."
It's funny how simple of a skill that sounds like, yet none of the magic we're aware of seems capable of that. Kind of appropriate considering Erfworld's general theme of forgetting the past and ignoring the potential for learning. However, if it's possible at all, I think it'd take a Look/Think/Turn, to See past Turns.
Lipkin wrote:Might have a Signamancer for cartography.
I think Signamancy is a very very good match for them, between Cartography and also perhaps whatever Contracts may be involved in colony-government. I suppose that's certainly a caster who might not be present at the War Council, so good point.
Lookamancer would be ideal for them too, but that would have certainly been mentioned. Turn and Doll would also make sense (the former for Move and ship-building, the latter for her majesty's extravagent outfits).
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby sdub » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:04 pm

0beron wrote:
sdub wrote:I meant a caster that could look back into the past to see what had happened to the ships. "All your ships were sank when a huge tidal wave washed over them."
It's funny how simple of a skill that sounds like, yet none of the magic we're aware of seems capable of that. Kind of appropriate considering Erfworld's general theme of forgetting the past and ignoring the potential for learning. However, if it's possible at all, I think it'd take a Look/Think/Turn, to See past Turns.


It might even be TOO powerful. Imagine being able to see events that happened in the last several turns to your nearest neighbors. Did they just have a huge battle that weakened their standing army? Time to extort/expand.

A related thought I just had was what if a kingdom asked their predictamancer to predict when a given side is at their weakest before attacking? I wonder if that would work.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Godzfirefly » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:17 pm

sdub wrote:A related thought I just had was what if a kingdom asked their predictamancer to predict when a given side is at their weakest before attacking? I wonder if that would work.


Probably, as long as the other side didn't have a Fate that required it stay alive...Then, you might very well put yourself at risk just by preparing to attack them.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby drachefly » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:19 pm

sdub wrote:
0beron wrote:
sdub wrote:I meant a caster that could look back into the past to see what had happened to the ships. "All your ships were sank when a huge tidal wave washed over them."
It's funny how simple of a skill that sounds like, yet none of the magic we're aware of seems capable of that. Kind of appropriate considering Erfworld's general theme of forgetting the past and ignoring the potential for learning. However, if it's possible at all, I think it'd take a Look/Think/Turn, to See past Turns.


It might even be TOO powerful. Imagine being able to see events that happened in the last several turns to your nearest neighbors. Did they just have a huge battle that weakened their standing army? Time to extort/expand.


Not more powerful than seeing what is happening to them right now. The existence of a power does not mean it is unbounded.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby OneHugeTuck » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:24 pm

0beron wrote:The thing I find the most interesting is the total absence of a caster thus far.


This was just part 1. It's not like we've seen much of anything 'so far'.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:33 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:
0beron wrote:The thing I find the most interesting is the total absence of a caster thus far.
This was just part 1. It's not like we've seen much of anything 'so far'.
Very true, I realize that. I just figure if it was any caster who is part of their military strategy like Wanda and Ace have been to their respective sides, the caster should have been at that meeting.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby Godzfirefly » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:51 pm

You should also keep in mind that A LOT of sides don't include their casters in their decision making processes. It's stupid of them, by general forum consensus. But, they still don't unless the caster gets pushy and has something to prove.
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Re: Lord Forecastle, Part 1

Postby 0beron » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:53 pm

Yeah, that's why I specified Ace and Wanda. They're central to their side's respective strategies, so they were given a seat at the table so to speak (albiet in Ace's case the seat was one of enforced silence). So I think this means that if Seaworld has a Caster, it's a passive one that isn't central to their strategy.
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