Summer Updates - 049

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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:50 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Charley was very likely part of the coup, but I doubt he worked solely for his own. And I don't think Charley would make such a simple mistake as forgetting to ask if there is an heir designate. And it is too much of an coincidence that Stanley took all the casters out of the city when the Gobwins broke their alliance. I think Stanley conspired with Charley (maybe encouraged by Wanda) and organized the rebellion of the Gobwins. And now he refuses to work with Charley partly out of guilt...


Perhaps, it would be interesting to know at what point Wanda really started to use Stanley for her own ends. Although Stanley doesn't seem like the type to succumb to guilt over something like that, unless he actually liked Saline.

But I agree - if Charlie was involved - with Stanley having decided to head out with the casters it would seem they were in on it together (perhaps Charlie got in contact with Stanley and had long discussions with him behind Saline's back.... like he does with Parson) and Charlie tried to double cross Stanley (or vice versa). Of course if Stanley's dislike for Charlie is because Charlie got the Gobwins to betray Saline, and Stanley wasn't involved, it would mean that Stanley somehow got the information afterwards.

In that case it would have been surprisingly sensible if Stanley decided to question some Gobwins after crushing their rebellion.

Lamech wrote:My impression of what the RCCII just said to the non-royal sides not in the alliance:...


Have there been any other non-royal sides on display other then those belonging to Charlie and Stanley?

P.S. Hmm... is there a way too figure out the odds of casters popping. It says a new side gets one fairly quickly. Is that because it is a new side? Or because it has no casters? If its the later, two sides might have a bunch of casters "turn" to increase caster production. If its the former I see a nice big benefit to breaking off and forming new sides. Assuming they give you their casters. This must be abused. FOR SCIENCE!


Well, seem to get one, but since Jillian hasn't yet it doesn't seem to be a rule. But maybe it is just that with every caster that pops the chances of another popping are reduced. So a new kingdom with no casters often seems to pop one pretty quickly, but an established side with two or three already might not pop another for many, many turns (if ever).

Or maybe Vinnie is on to something. Maybe some mechanic of Erfworld (natural luckamancy perhaps?) is in place to aid a side that is newly established by making things like the chances of their first caster popping much higher.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby HandofShadows » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:51 am

Oh, all kinds of interesting things in this one. Looking more and more like Charlie was behind Salines death. We don't have solid proof yet, but it would be no surprise to me. Stanley seemed to like Saline alot and I just don't see him betraying him. Now I can easliy see Stanley being suckered. Charlie being behind Salines death explains his paranioa and Stanleys huge dislike of Charlie.
Jillian still has a place in her heart for Wanda. Awwww. :lol: Charlie is certainly a manipulative SoB and Jillian is playing into his hands to some extent *Charlie is undoubtable aiming Jillian at Stanley). I know Jillian is keeping her eye's open about working with Charlie, but she is outclassed in this type of conflict. She is a in your face brute force combatant, not a stratigic thinker. I wonder if the tha only reason she stays alive might be Wanda who has already tossed aside duty to Stanley so as to not harm her.
And a little info on popping. When going to pop a commander unit you don't know if your going to get a Warlord or a Caster. I knew you couldn't pop a specific type of caster but not to be able to pop what type of commander unit you want is a surprise.

Lookign forward to new pages. :mrgreen:
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Lamech » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:53 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Lamech wrote:My impression of what the RCCII just said to the non-royal sides not in the alliance:...


Have there been any other non-royal sides on display other then those belonging to Charlie and Stanley?

I assume Carpool and Jitteri. If Jitteri is royal its even worse because then they are saying that to every other side. Royals included.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:09 am

Donoterase wrote:I imagine this cannot be cheap for Charlie. Hiring wizards and possibly bribing overpaid athl--er, giants. Jillian may not like how Charlie plans to recoup his losses.


I wonder how much it costs to hire a caster? Of course Vanna is a bit special due to the Unaroyal connection. Maybe Charlie was able to get her to help Jillian for not much at all because of that and Jillian's hate for GK ("Well Vanna, would you be eager to work for a Queen who truly hates the side that destroyed Unaroyal?").

Lamech wrote:I assume Carpool and Jitteri. If Jitteri is royal its even worse because then they are saying that to every other side. Royals included.


Hmmm, you might be right. I always just assumed they were some royals who had decided not to get caught up in the RCCs and were just using the opportunity to pester TV. Or they may have been in a conflict with TV before the first RCC was formed and the hostilities weren't ended, so they couldn't ally.

Still, we know Erfworld is bigger then the sides seen (and bigger then some of the sides here know), so there should be more royals and non-royals out that not involved with what is going on, maybe even unaware of what is going on.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:14 am

The target is almost certainly Stanley and GK. Thats what CHarlies offered Jillian earlier, and thats where their forces are massed. While going after Wanda would save the RCC2's bacon, it would ultimately leave Stanley and Parson in power at GK and difficult to dislodge with a large lead in cities.

Also, it seems highly likely Charlie was involved (though quite possibly not entirely to blame) for Saline's death.

However, if he can influence natural allies to some a large degree... then why is he (presumably) denying GK their natural allies when they'd make an excellent 5th column?

It seems like a good time to repeat a theory I had once that one of the Arkenhammer's hidden properties is to command ultimate loyalty. Not absolute loyalty like the Decrypted, but when push comes to shove, units under Stanley won't betray him and give themselves some rationalization as to why. Book 1 gave Wanda, Parson, and Jack an opportunity to turn. None of them took it.

Yes, its HIGHLY speculative, but not inconsistent with anything we've learned so far and has explanatory value.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Krennson » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:28 am

atteSmythe wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Thinking that Charlie pulled another natural-alliance-turning trick on the Gobwins, and made them natural allies of Jetstone? That would be fun.

As marbits wouldn't associate with a side that had gobwins, hobgobwins, witches, demons, etc., as allies, I'm guessing that gobwins would not ally to a side that associates with elves.

Good update. Great use of the Turnamancer. Looking forward to having some giants on our side. :D

Akkristor: Sizemore popped under Saline IV


maybe JILLIAN has allied with those gobwins? giants and gobwins may be compatible.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Chemical » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:52 am

Very little speculation on what is the goal of the mission. IMO this attack is not against the GK (Vinnie, Charlie and Jillian know how tough the city is) but attempt to capture Prince Ansom while he is riding the dragon express.

"They both knew it had to. Maybe she would croak on this mission. Maybe they would never see one another again.

Vinny had his feet on the tower as she lifted skyward. She saw her armada filling the sky with yellow death, and thought it would almost be easier that way."

Why else it would be easier unless she was meeting up with her old lover and her current lover's old best friend? Plus, the units she is using are all mainly flyers which we know cant take over a city, which leaves surgical strike as an only option.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Lestat » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:00 am

I must say I was intrigued by the idea of Charlie being behind the death of Saline IV. Him beeing so carefull not to be seen as a threat to the royal sides reminds me of Toranaga from "Shogun". Throughout the book Toranaga always says (to his enemies and friends alike) that he really doesn't want to be the shogun, until at the very end of the book it becomes apparent that everything he did was in support of his efforts to eventually become the shogun. Kinda like Charlie always saying that it's no big deal he is attuned, and not wanting to provoke royal sides, all the time expanding his forces, manipulating sides into conflict and maybe trying to aquire the other Arkentools.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Lamech » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:01 am

Chemical wrote:
Why else it would be easier unless she was meeting up with her old lover and her current lover's old best friend? Plus, the units she is using are all mainly flyers which we know cant take over a city, which leaves surgical strike as an only option.

Fliers can take cities. They just run into trouble if they meet up with large amounts of spell defenses. And large numbers of archers. And twice as many dwagons as they have gwiffions. GK is not the target. It just won't work, the spell defenses are reloaded, the dwagon fleet is reloaded. GK has hunderds or archers from the elves. I mean logically it could be the target. Hit Parson take the bracer, but metastory it isn't interesting if Jillian is roasted by overwhelming force.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:23 am

Chemical wrote:Very little speculation on what is the goal of the mission. IMO this attack is not against the GK (Vinnie, Charlie and Jillian know how tough the city is) but attempt to capture Prince Ansom while he is riding the dragon express.

"They both knew it had to. Maybe she would croak on this mission. Maybe they would never see one another again.

Vinny had his feet on the tower as she lifted skyward. She saw her armada filling the sky with yellow death, and thought it would almost be easier that way."

Why else it would be easier unless she was meeting up with her old lover and her current lover's old best friend? Plus, the units she is using are all mainly flyers which we know cant take over a city, which leaves surgical strike as an only option.


That's not a bad theory. It would fit with the background, the turn before this Charlie is talking to Parson about Ansom, when Charlie first contacted Jillian it closed out on him about to reveal Ansom and Wanda...

Though "for Charlie's other plan..." sounds so major. I'm wondering if just capturing Ansom is significant enough to risk so much. But I agree, I don't think their aim, whatever it is, is GK just yet. And mostly fliers, but it seems she has a number of noble warlords with her.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby elliotbay » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:33 am

Nobody's mentioned what I think is a very salient point regarding Charlie and his arrangements with natural allies. It doesn't have to be a special of the Arkendish to make Charlie very uniquely suited for it, when he can always just thinkagram them to make arrangements. Remember GK's problem was not making an agreement with the Gobwins, but finding them. Charlie doesn't have that problem. He doesn't need to know where they are to negotiate because he can communicate instantly with anyone. That also means he can arrange the betrayal of units within a city, without being there himself to do so.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby badninja » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:08 am

This was a good update, and a great way to end the summer ( :lol: ) but I think that what ever ol' Charlie has planned. Parson is looking for funny business from him and probably has his own plans in place. Do we know how close to GK FAQ is because Parson could have something waiting for this little party. I think that only time will tell and I think Jillian will be used a piece on the game board, maby a pawn by Charlie. I just got a gut feeling we are seeing Charlie getting desperate, I feel that he sees her as expendable and he will get her killed to get what he wants.
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:11 am

Albatross! wrote:I'm a bit disappointed, though; for a second I thought Jillian had actually worked out how to be a Queen, but then it turns out to be Charlie's idea. Ah well...I do wonder how things will go for her and Faq, being stuck working for two sides that distrust each other at best? And having a lover on one side, no less! Fun times. :mrgreen:


Well she is in a tough position, and she doesn't have many options - either play along with the more powerful sides who can help her for a price, go it alone (seems unworkable), or withdraw from the world like Faq of old. And a sign of a good ruler is often how they manage their foreign relations.

Although I thought she won Valdez with style - calling the truce to actually parely with the giants while poor old Scone is right there thinking Jillian wants to talk to him was great. Charlie set it up, but the victory seemed all Jillian.

Heh, and I guess it shows you don't need decryption pliers to turn units to your side - as Scone and the giants can attest (I wonder if any other Jitterati infantry were captured from Valdez, everyone was croaked in the first city).
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Roszlishan » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:15 am

Telva wrote:Mission: Croak Stanly the Tool (Jillian said she'd do that for free), and then to repay Charlie: capture Parson


Does Charlie still want Parson? After admitting that Charlie hates him?

Seriously: is Parson still a desirable acquisition for Charlie? Yes, he's clever - but Charlie doesn't apparently have any warlords, has never needed warlords - and does he really want a warlord
who is cleverer than he is?

The problem with someone who's smarter than you is ... he's smarter than you. And so you can never be sure that he hasn't thought of something you haven't. And in Parson's case, he probably has.

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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Glenn » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:19 am

I'd say Jillian's ideal goal in this situation would be to capture and Turn Wanda. She still misses Wanda, and getting Wanda would also get her the Arkenplyers and the whole Decrypted army including Ansom.

One interesting thing about Vinny and Jillian being lovers; does it mean that Vinny will in some sense be the father of Faq's Royal Heir? If so, maybe the heir will inherit more of Vinny's personality and/or Transylvito traits like being able to fly?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Furousha » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:29 am

hm. I've gotta think Jillian's going after Ansom while he's on the relay, it just doesnt make sense story or strategy wise to try and Hit GK right now, If she were taking Vinny and at least a dozen TV warlords, including Caesar, then maybe. Jillian was at the battle of the pass remember? that was what, 2-3 dozen dwagons with just 3 knights and the Tool & his tool? TV brought what (probably) amounted to a very large chunk of their high level leadership to the fight, and they still only managed a marginal victory. Now I'm pretty sure Jillian and Charlie dont know about the dwagon farming... but they know Stanley got away from the battle with at least two, and in 55 turns since then would probably have popped at least a few more, in fact, if they know about the dwagon relay then they know that Stanley is getting a big handful of dwagons from somewhere, charlie's not dumb enough to assume that Stanley is devoting 80-100% of his flying heavies to delivery duty, and Jillian knows how tough even 2 dozen dwagons + Tool + Tool can be. Even if they are assuming Stanley is only keeping a dozen dwagons with him, and even if Charlie was sending some Archons, Jillian would know that it would be a suicide run to go up against those dwagons + Stanley + hammer + Parson + Whatever Archers are in GK + Whatever bonus "being the hardest defensive point on Erf" grants them.


There is some Merit to possibly be going after Wanda if Jillian and Charley found a way to figure out that the army of the damned is mostly ground units with little air cover, they may attempt a strike on her similar to Parson's siege Raid... but my money's still on Ansom for purely story driven reasons.

Also, If Ansom were to be captured, and Archons were part of the strike, it might explain the look on stanley's face on page 1 of book 2 "Parson! What exactly have you been talking to charlie about?!?" Maggie appears to be receiving a thinkagram, perhaps it's a report that Ansom was captured (another for story sake assumption, it wouldnt make since for Ansom to be dusted in the first few pages) If Ansom was captured that may be the turning point where Parson is forced to fight as many have been saying needs to happen, aside from being incredibly pissed off Stanley would have to promote a new chief warlord... Given his growing distrust of Wanda's decrypted would he promote another decrypted, or go with his only living one (parson)? We know that KC was a chief Warlord at one point, though we dont know if he is a high level who had been Unaroyal's chief warlord for many hundreds of turns, or if Princess Cruz and/or other Warlords were Chief Warlord before him, but by the time Unaroyal was down to their last city he was just the best of what was left. He could be a 9, he could be a 4, who knows... If Ansom is captured though I'd expect Stanley to go with the Live warlord...

A captured Ansom would probably lead to a showdown between Wanda & Her decrypted flyers vs Jillian. Wanda does also know where Faq is after all... unknown weather Stanley would risk his but and bring along the massive Dwagon Armada... That'd be pretty farkin scary to look up and see... Hammer + 80 some Dwagons & Pliers + a few dozen Archons and whatever other flyers Unaroyal had (if any)... meh, i'm just speculating at this point, to recap my ramblings: My money's on Ansom and the Dwagon relay being Jillian's target. "It would almost be easier that way" 'nuf said.


Oh, and great reference to the Western (San Fransisco) Giants and the rumors that they use juice... (steroids!)...

Just noticed this: "Not that she'd been making much infantry anyway, but the point was, she had made enough. Enough, and in time...for Charlie's other plan."

Am i completely misinterpreting this? It seems to imply that "Charlie's other plan" Somehow involves infantry, because while jillian wasn't making alot, she had made enough, and in time for Charlie's other plan... not sure what to make of this...


P.S. I dont think anyone's mentioned it yet, but we now have conformation that Jillian did infact give in to the Don's demands to produce an Heir. So that's 2 royal heirs on the way... I wonder what part they'll play in all this madness?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Furousha » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:33 am

Roszlishan wrote:
Telva wrote:Mission: Croak Stanly the Tool (Jillian said she'd do that for free), and then to repay Charlie: capture Parson


Does Charlie still want Parson? After admitting that Charlie hates him?

Seriously: is Parson still a desirable acquisition for Charlie? Yes, he's clever - but Charlie doesn't apparently have any warlords, has never needed warlords - and does he really want a warlord
who is cleverer than he is?

The problem with someone who's smarter than you is ... he's smarter than you. And so you can never be sure that he hasn't thought of something you haven't. And in Parson's case, he probably has.

Happiness,
Roszlishan


Personally, I've utterd "I hate you" more times than i can remember when a friend beats me in a game or camps and gets a cheap shot on me in a shooter... I dont actually hate them. To me the comment Charlie made was not so much a statement of fact "Parson I hate your guts and I never want anything to do with you ever again!!!" as it was just a (mostly) friendly jab because Charlie was frustrated. I dont think every little thing that is said should nessicarily be taken completely litterally and at face value, especially when it's coming out of Charlie or Parson's mouth...
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby SteveMB » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:38 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:But I agree - if Charlie was involved - with Stanley having decided to head out with the casters it would seem they were in on it together (perhaps Charlie got in contact with Stanley and had long discussions with him behind Saline's back.... like he does with Parson) and Charlie tried to double cross Stanley (or vice versa). Of course if Stanley's dislike for Charlie is because Charlie got the Gobwins to betray Saline, and Stanley wasn't involved, it would mean that Stanley somehow got the information afterwards.


If Charlie engineered the gobwin revolt without Stanley being in on it, the fact that it happened while Stanley was off on an expedition suggests that Charlie wanted to avoid decapitating the Plaid side, and probably wanted Stanley in charge for his own reasons. Perhaps he had Stanley pegged as someone who would start a round of wars (and thereby bring in business for Charlie -- though if so it almost didn't work; the war was almost over before either side chose to hire him).

That still leaves the question of how Stanley found out, assuming that this is indeed the cause of the "strong personal dislike".

Chemical wrote:Very little speculation on what is the goal of the mission. IMO this attack is not against the GK (Vinnie, Charlie and Jillian know how tough the city is) but attempt to capture Prince Ansom while he is riding the dragon express.


How would that work? The whole point of such an express network is that it lets a unit switch from mount to mount to mount, using the mounts' Move to cover many hexes all on that side's turn. The ambusher would need to either sever a node of the network without the user knowing until he got there, or else lie in wait at some point on the route (which would require either a lot of luck(amancy?) or a defined choke point like the pass leading to Faq).
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby DevilDan » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:40 am

Excellent update. I suppose the Jitterati shield is the Starbucks logo.

"Fund-razer" is a great one, probably not the first time its been used.

So what's the name of the Jitterati ruler, Kopi Luwak?
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Re: Summer Updates - 049

Postby Hatu » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:45 am

tetradyne wrote:It's going to be very, very interesting to see what'll happen when the Air-raid of Charlie/Jillian flies into GK and finds that....

"Oh dear god there are dwagons EVERYWHERE!"

Seeing as any attempts to breach GK airspace have probably been unsuccessful, I doubt Charlie knows the extent to which the GK dwagon count has been replenished. Wonder what parson will do when backed into a corner and forced to fight again :twisted:


I don't think Jillian's target is GK. The rest of the world may not know exactly what GK's status is, but they have to know it's been rebuilt by now. Given the size (and decrypted nature) of Ansom's army in the field, only a fool would think GK wouldn't be well defended. It would take a massive force to assure victory in an assault, and anything less than assured victory risks making the situation much, much worse. Given that Jillian's whole side is still new, that means Charlie would have to pony up a massive number of Archons, and I can't see Charlie taking that sort risk. Even Jillian might be hesitant to try.

Given Jillian's overall discomfort in this update, and that the one thing we know Charlie talked to her about was how Ansom still exists, I think it's more likely that Jillian is going to try to attack Ansom and Wanda. I'm not sure how they could do that effectively, given Charlie's apparent lack of surveillance and Ansom's mobility, but it seems like the most likely objective.

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