Book 2 - Page 4

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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Infidel » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:05 pm

Oberon wrote:Yes, they would. When the person you're speaking with is holding a rock, and you point over his shoulder and say "That rock?", that is very odd.


Terrible analogy, but others have already covered why it's terrible.

Perhaps this will help. Can we agree that Ansom and the Jetstone Princes are in two different hexes, and that they have met at the hex border to hold their parley? If we can, and if the casters are in the hex with the Princes, then Ansom pointing off in the distance and referring to a piece of real estate which is a part of the same piece of real estate that his brothers are standing on is just odd. The casters are in a different hex, or Ansom is acting strangely. And there was no reaction from his brothers to indicate that they took this as odd. They might have said "Yes, right here", and Trammenis would have made some quip about Ansom being loopy.
Covered by others. Hexes are big. There is no reason to assume those tents are in a different hex than Tramenis is standing in. Instead, think of it as Ossomer and Trammenis standing on the edge of a city. Ansome is outside the city. And the Casters are deep inside the city.

We know, quite clearly, that large forces are deployed across multiple hexes. A casual perusal of the RCC forces approaching GK shows that without any doubt. So if you are assuming that the Jetstone forces are all in a single hex now, I believe you are very mistaken. The opening sentence of the GK expeditionary forces saga is "The column was three hexes long." If the Jetstone forces are so few that they can only fill a single hex, they are not even going to be a bump for the GK steamroller and no veil would have been necessary.
I wrote quite aware of the previous incident, but there was a reason, that the force trailed a few hexes, and it wasn't implied that they must stretch because Ansome later wanted to stall so he could re-concentrate his forces prior to attacking Efedup. There would be no reason to wait to re concentrate his forces if they would not all fit in a single hex.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Darkside007 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:53 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
Lothmar wrote:My only question is, is it actually 'assigning damage' or is it just who can effectively maneuver better in a given situation to follow orders.


I think it's assigning damage, and Jillian's comments during her fights I believe back me up.

Allowing the defender to assign damage is a very game like mechanism, and Erfworld is a game like world. It's been a while since I've played, but I think bands in Magic the Gathering work like this. The defender gets to assign where the attack's damage goes. That's what a led stack does for you -- let's you assign damage you take, like a band.


Aye, but that's only when blocking with multiple defenders v. one attacker. A mechanic where damage is actually redirected (which is more in line with what we're talking about) is a trait the Kor have. (0: Assign one damage from this creature to any other creature you control)

(Banding is actually an ability that lets you attack with a large group of creatures acting as a single unit. It's a confusing mechanic that's been removed from gameplay because no one understood it.)

But that's not how it works with what we've seen. Jillian and Casear have used swarms of lesser units to screen incoming fire, effectively acting as the blockers themselves in this scenario, with the warlord acting as the MTG player. There's no reason to believe that attackers are forced to engage the defenders the defending warlord assigns to them, so if a warlord were to have an insufficient number of defenders, the attackers could 'leak' though. Or, since intra-hex combat is real-time, there's no reasons defenders could be evaded. We have only seen Jillian use screening techniques against unled stacks.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Yosarian » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:29 pm

multilis wrote:"But its pretty clear stanley expected GK to fall BEFORE he reached and rebuilt faq. He intended to start a new side"

How many turns is Faq away if Stanley was to only take his fastest dragon under that theory?

If the 500K treasury was savable by that means, it would have made sense for Stanley if possible to have unit(s) on way to rebuild one of Faq's cities the day his last living warlord died if not sooner (GK book 1 page 2).


Well, in order for that to work, I imagine you'd have to take FAQ, and then take the 500K and somehow move it to FAQ. Which, A, would probably take a hell of a lot of dragons to carry that much gold, probably more then he had available, and B, what if someone intercepted them and took the money on the way to FAQ?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby multilis » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:33 pm

Faq had 3 cities, Jillian rebuilt all three. So if you can't own two capitals, Stanley could have still rebuilt one of the smaller cities if that was a means to get his treasury safe. If he had time to rebuild a Faq city (beginning of book 1 page 2 right after losing last living warlord), and he couldn't take his treasury with him, then losing capital one way or another gives a heavy hit to treasury.

Ansom felt a "decapitation strike" on capital would cripple Jetstone, compared to taking a few other cities sooner. In the Civilization series, losing a capital massively screws up the ecconomy of the rest of the cities (corruption goes crazy, income can drop in half or worse). In some games (eg metalknights), losing a capital/HQ ends a side.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:04 pm

dirocyn wrote:1. To Jetstone's aid. Charlie knows he's missing 28 archons, and he's seen some in the Army of Darkness. Fair to assume Jetstone will need some air units for a counterattack. This strategy is--overwhelm the Army of Darkness, attack and keep attacking until Wanda is croaked and the threat is ended. If the Army of Darkness attacks, then Jetstone counter-attacks, then Transylvito counter-attacks, then Charlie counter-attacks, then Jillian attacks--successive waves of attackers might be enough to deplete Wanda's juice and overwhelm her forces. To anyone who's ever seen a zombie movie, this seems really stupid.

This is probably the best possibility A suprise precise attack when Wanda is on the open may stop the madness. Or at least slow it down.

But they can't afford to start a war of atriction, since thePliers don't have a limit on how much they can decrypt, or if they have it's ridiculously high, since she ressurected ALL of the coalition's uncroacked in a single turn. They'll have to go directly for the throat, aka Wanda.

dirocyn wrote:2. To harass, to capture GK's other cities. Classic Nathan Bedford Forrest tactics, what Rommel called the blitzkrieg-- hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, hit 'em where they're weak. These cities will have a few decrypted defenders, not much more defense than they had when Ansom captured them in the first place. Hit 'em while Wanda is in Jetstone, and your own casualties stay croaked rather than add strength to the enemy.

An horrible idea, since:

2a. Not all cities were lightly defended. And Ansom, Hamster and even Stanley would agree to put enough defenders to make sure those cities stayed on their hands. Slower units that didn't fit on their assault plan for example. Units poped during the dozens of turns since they captured said cities. Plus Wanda can quickly travel trough her own territorry thanks to the dwagon flight system.

2b.even if you capture, you're sudenly on the midle of the territorry of an enemy renowed for his dwagon super fast strike force, wich can and will hunt you down if you even show your face, as Charlie learned the hard way. If not even his archons could evade the patrols, Jillian has even worst chances.

dirocyn wrote:3. To Gobwin Knob. Jillian and Charlie don't know there have been an extra 2-3 dwagons per turn, so they don't know that 80% of the air force exists, plus 92% chance they "know" there are no gobwins or hobgobwins. This means they seriously underestimate the forces that are available to defend the capitol. They don't even have to win--all they have to do is force Ansom and Wanda to return to GK via Dwagon Express, which means the Army of Darkness loses leadership and artifact bonuses and (more importantly) it's ability to decrypt more units. Best case they croak Stanley.

This third possibility provides the most advantages.


Actualy, is the worst of them all.

3a.Stanley is a mighty combat machine, having beaten the crap out of Caesar and his bat guard, and will have his honor guard of KISS ready to rock out.

3b. Sizemore and his army of golems are waiting to turn GK's dungeons into the ultimate death trap once again.

3c. Hamster the supreme warlord. He crushed the mighty imperial coalition when he was horribly outnumbered. He eats marbits for breakfast and the rules for lunch. What chances does Jillian have now that Hamster isn't on a one-sided situation?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Firkraag » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:15 pm

I wonder if there are special assassin-class units in Erfworld... It would make the best option against Wanda, wouldn't it?

I mean, best option aside from the "If you can't beat'em, join'em" route... :lol:
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby nerf-dweller » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:27 pm

Joe22c. wrote:That's an interesting take Ansan Gotti;

so your perspective is that the theme of Erfworld is one of fate and [perhaps lack of] predestination?


Not predestination. It's my own pet theory is that ....
Spoiler: show
Erfworld is a creation of Parson Gotti. Not alone mind you. I think that Erfworld is a creation of the collective throughts and dreams of the gamers of Parson's world (perhaps of "all" Earths). That's why things are twisted reflections of Parson's world. And the situation he found himself in when summoned. As a "creator" of the world, he's able to break the rules that Erfworld tries to impose on him (i.e. the F-bomb at the end of Book one). He's possibly even affecting the reality of the Erfworld (the apparent changing appearances of characters).
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:05 pm

Darkside007 wrote:Aye, but that's only when blocking with multiple defenders v. one attacker. A mechanic where damage is actually redirected (which is more in line with what we're talking about) is a trait the Kor have. (0: Assign one damage from this creature to any other creature you control)

(Banding is actually an ability that lets you attack with a large group of creatures acting as a single unit. It's a confusing mechanic that's been removed from gameplay because no one understood it.)


Yeah it's been a rather long while since I played MTG. ;)

But that's not how it works with what we've seen. Jillian and Casear have used swarms of lesser units to screen incoming fire, effectively acting as the blockers themselves in this scenario, with the warlord acting as the MTG player.


Right. Combat is either simultaneous in Erfworld, or the Defender actually does go first. (That's combat, not Turns. Combat happens between two sides during any player's Turn.)

Either way I don't think they're literally blocking, I think that's just how damage is being shown in the comic. Jillian's comments ("Oh yeah, get that out of your system" and "Buy me some time to solo the blue") seem to indicate she's assigning the damage, not literally interposing unit. I think a whole stack attacks another whole stack.

I also think combat goes in rounds. This is what Civilization does. Units have hit points. Both attack each other until one is destroyed, taking some damage each round of attack. That's Jillian "buy me some time" comment. First round, she attacks and looses the Orlies, but kills a blue. Next round, nada, the dragons get her. This also explains Ansom on GK walls. The entire hex of uncroaked doesn't poof just 'cause Ansom has the pliers, he has to kill them a few at a time. I.e., in rounds.

Back to Jillian, in both cases she's assigning incoming damage. When she attacks the unlead stack of dragons, she's able to choose to put all of her damage on one enemy unit, because the dragons have no warlord/caster.

There's no reason to believe that attackers are forced to engage the defenders the defending warlord assigns to them,


In a wargame, this would be tedious. Roll up damage for both sides, then just assign it. Easier. It could happen, but ... geeze, so fiddly.

so if a warlord were to have an insufficient number of defenders, the attackers could 'leak' though.


Right. Run out of other units, the defender has to take the damage on the remaining unit.

Or, since intra-hex combat is real-time, there's no reasons defenders could be evaded.


I don't think it's real time, like an RTS, but I think there's probably rules for disengaging and passing through a hex. We saw Vinny suggest doing just that.

We have only seen Jillian use screening techniques against unled stacks.


I think she did it while attacking Stanley. She tossed her Gwiffins at the Red dragon, they took the blast. Then she attacked the red, although I assume that was Stanley choosing to let the red take the damage rather than let himself or Jack take it. I think Jillian does a LOT of damage.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Sieggy » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:41 pm

In the last panel, there's a saddled riderless dwagon behind Ansom, and to his left, extending from the edge of the panel is . . . what? Even enlarging it to a ridiculous degree, I can't figure out what it is . . .
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:44 pm

Sieggy wrote:In the last panel, there's a saddled riderless dwagon behind Ansom, and to his left, extending from the edge of the panel is . . . what? Even enlarging it to a ridiculous degree, I can't figure out what it is . . .


On the very left edge of the panel? Kind of below the decrypted Archon? I think it's the veil dropping. Looks like 1/2 of a "siege engine."
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby HailGreen28 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:56 pm

Darkside007 wrote:
gameboy1234 wrote:
Lothmar wrote:My only question is, is it actually 'assigning damage' or is it just who can effectively maneuver better in a given situation to follow orders.


I think it's assigning damage, and Jillian's comments during her fights I believe back me up.

Allowing the defender to assign damage is a very game like mechanism, and Erfworld is a game like world. It's been a while since I've played, but I think bands in Magic the Gathering work like this. The defender gets to assign where the attack's damage goes. That's what a led stack does for you -- let's you assign damage you take, like a band.


Aye, but that's only when blocking with multiple defenders v. one attacker. A mechanic where damage is actually redirected (which is more in line with what we're talking about) is a trait the Kor have. (0: Assign one damage from this creature to any other creature you control)

(Banding is actually an ability that lets you attack with a large group of creatures acting as a single unit. It's a confusing mechanic that's been removed from gameplay because no one understood it.)

But that's not how it works with what we've seen. Jillian and Casear have used swarms of lesser units to screen incoming fire, effectively acting as the blockers themselves in this scenario, with the warlord acting as the MTG player. There's no reason to believe that attackers are forced to engage the defenders the defending warlord assigns to them, so if a warlord were to have an insufficient number of defenders, the attackers could 'leak' though. Or, since intra-hex combat is real-time, there's no reasons defenders could be evaded. We have only seen Jillian use screening techniques against unled stacks.
I agree. Looks like you can micromanage tactics within a hex, like Parson did when targeting Jillian over the lake. Like a RTS game, where you can highlight all your units and tell them to attack ONE unit, THAT unit.

Jillian probably figured the huge red plated Dwagon would unleash a hellacious blast at the first unit it faced. So she put some units up front as a meat-shield. Cannon-fodder. Simple as that.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:15 pm

Cubbins doesn't have to be a hatomancer. What if he's something else? That would make for a sticky situation. and eventually someone would be sorry.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Pax » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:27 pm

MonteCristo wrote:This feels like a huge negotiation fail for Ansom...

It wasn't really a negotiation. It was intelligence gathering, although the offer was probably made sincerely (they are his BROTHERS, after all).

I mean, if you want to convince the enemy to surrender should you not do so from a position of power?

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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Menas » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:48 pm

Glory of Arioch wrote:So Gobwin Knob is committing all its fliers to attacking Jetstone? That's gonna leave GK's capital awfully open to a Jillian sortie...


I'm betting that's exactly what's going on. There's no way Charlescomm wasn't going to find out some way to monitor the business of GK. I'm guessing he came up with some ways to do exactly that.

I'm assuming he has the information of troop movement. If you add this to the fact that he suggested to Parson that killing a 'tool' would be solid evidence indicating that just because you're attuned to an Arkentool doesn't mean you're carrying out the will of the Titans.... I'm thinking this means the end for Stanley. All of his air units are dedicated to the assault on Jetstone, and Jillian is throwing everything at GK. I hope that's what happens anyway, because I'd love to see Stanley get croaked.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby oslecamo2 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:30 pm

Menas wrote:
Glory of Arioch wrote:I'm assuming he has the information of troop movement. If you add this to the fact that he suggested to Parson that killing a 'tool' would be solid evidence indicating that just because you're attuned to an Arkentool doesn't mean you're carrying out the will of the Titans.... I'm thinking this means the end for Stanley. All of his air units are dedicated to the assault on Jetstone, and Jillian is throwing everything at GK. I hope that's what happens anyway, because I'd love to see Stanley get croaked.


Not really, because even if he hasn't got air units (fat chance, since he's the dwagon master and everything), he can just retreat inside the dungeon, and have Sizemore and the KISS to unleash hell on Jillian if she tries to enter the tunnels.

Really, Hamster knows Charlie has 600 archons. He would never discard the chance of an air sortie at the capital.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Incomptinence » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:47 am

Yay Jack! I wonder if he has offensive combat uses or he will just be utilised to keep some units getting croaked. Anyway I do look forward to this battle. Sorry for not writing a big clever post.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby crazyguy_co » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:05 am

fjolnir wrote:
crazyguy_co wrote:Not quite accurate.

All we KNOW is that a side becomes barbarians if the last city is taken. We don't yet have an example of a capital being taken while other cities yet stand. We know what happens when an overlord dies with no heir, and when a side has NO cities (ala faq.) To assume anything we'd either have to know that Spacerock was the last Jetstone city, or we'd need info on whether its taking the capital or the last city that causes a side to go barbarian.

Not quite accurate, Jillian was the heir to faq, when her capital/side fell (not sure which) she became a barbarian BECAUSE she was heir, unlike if Stanley were croaked, which would have produced no barbarian units because he has no heir designate.



But we aren't talking about if stanley was croaked. That part we know, the side ends since he has no heir, cities "freeze" etc.

The discussion is whether a side goes barbarian when a. the last city is taken, or b. The capital is taken. There has not been an example of a capital being taken as anything other than a last city yet. We don't know what happens when a capital is taken if its not the last city.

Our only examples thus far are when both happened.


Raph-

Another possibility is that the treasury is ALL in the capital, and the loss of a capital results in the loss of the whole treasury. I know of at least two war games that function that way... both games also prevent the player from getting "normal" income until he has his capital back. This usually spells end for the player, but not always. the behavior we've seen also allows for this possibility... just another theory, not any proof for or against it.

again my point is there is so much we don't know, and without knowing it, hard to postulate on whether its "smart" for ansom and wands to strike straight at jetstone or not.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby JustDoug » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:21 am

Yosarian wrote:Well, in order for that to work, I imagine you'd have to take FAQ, and then take the 500K and somehow move it to FAQ. Which, A, would probably take a hell of a lot of dragons to carry that much gold, probably more then he had available, and B, what if someone intercepted them and took the money on the way to FAQ?


Schmuckers aren't gold. From what can be gleaned from the story so far, they're more a form of intangible money; credit, if you will. At worst, from the standpoint of portability, shmuckers can be likened to paper money or a check. From what can be inferred from the information give so far, the losing [side/city]'s treasury is "pooled" with the winner's. Think of it as Erf Rules acting the banker, with one side's account being closed out and transferred to the other- or so it reads so far.

Gems, magical items and other tangibles are another matter, no doubt.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby jkosta » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:43 am

MarbitChow wrote:
Yosarian wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:This feels like a huge negotiation fail for Ansom...
I mean, if you want to convince the enemy to surrender should you not do so from a position of power? You trick them into thinking they stand a chance in a fight and can win and it just makes them less likely to surrender. Even if the negotiations would not have gone down any differently, Ansom should have tried everything he could to convince them to surrender; Namely by dropping the veil before he went over to negotiate.


Oh, not at all.

Ansom would have liked to have their surrender or their alliance. But mostly, I think, what he hoped to gain was exactly what he did gain; he got his brothers to tell him their exact troop layout, while keeping the element of surprise on his side. If they'd had a weaker force on the bridge, he might have taken the bridge first instead; the information they told him was key.


Note that Ansom is a True Believer. He doesn't WANT his brothers to convert by coercion. He WANTS them to accept the truth with their own eyes.
He wanted his brothers to know that he was ready to fight, but willing to talk. But he also wanted them to think they had a fighting chance, so that if they accept, it was because they believed, not because they felt they had no alternative.


And he got exactly that. On Page 3, Ossomer says, "But I am what I am. And so here I stand. I will make you and the Titans prove your claim."

So now Ansom is going to prove his claim. I don't think he and his brother are so different; Hamster proved his claim to Ansom, and he turned. Sure, I'm ignoring the possibly mind-control aspect of the Pliers, but we haven't seen that substantiated yet.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby lovelyluthien » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:18 am

You know, I'm just waiting for Wanda to lead the Archons into a Time Warp dance... What would happen in Erfworld if time was being warped?
Faster movement for your own troops, possibly?
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