Book 2 - Page 4

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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby carisbourg » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:16 am

dirocyn wrote:...
3. To Gobwin Knob. Jillian and Charlie don't know there have been an extra 2-3 dwagons per turn, so they don't know that 80% of the air force exists, plus 92% chance they "know" there are no gobwins or hobgobwins. This means they seriously underestimate the forces that are available to defend the capitol. They don't even have to win--all they have to do is force Ansom and Wanda to return to GK via Dwagon Express, which means the Army of Darkness loses leadership and artifact bonuses and (more importantly) it's ability to decrypt more units. Best case they croak Stanley.

This third possibility provides the most advantages.


So what kind of fun plot points happen if Charlie and Faq raid GK and Charlie grabs Parson?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby mhangman » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:50 am

we dont know about how many dwagons with ansom. even with full force of faq and charlies comm. i dont think they can attack to gk. after what happens last time they cant try that again. and come one with stanleys tool who can try to kill him when he escape to dungeons. with kiss + casters + parson + all other land units created till book 1 they cant invade dungeon. so its possiable that they can try to attack with gobwins but i dont think they a chance
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Pax » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:52 am

Here's an interesting set of things to ponder:
  • the Decrypted Horde IS pretty Infantry-heavy, and HAS been following Ansom's old pattern of "infantry+siege=win"
  • the GK army at Ansom's meeting ISN'T the infantry- and siege-heavy Decrypted Horde
  • ... thus, those Infantry units must be somewhere else ...!

My question is, where is that "somewhere else" ... and what might they be planning to accomplish, there?







TOTALLY DIFFERENT LINE OF THOUGHT: Even if the Decrypted Horde really are evil incarnate, they WOULD like an allied, non-Decrypted side. Why? Well ...
  • All new production is sent into the field, to assemble at a particular point on the map.
  • That point is stockpiled with tons of Decrypted troops ... and Wanda.
  • All newly-arriving Allied units are attacked (and killed by the overwhelming force present), as they arrive.
  • At end of the turn, the dead units are Decrypted - reducing their upkeep to zero.

The alliance would break, and be reformed, every single turn ... but if you can ally wihtout spending money? Upkeep-free troops would let you Turtle very, very, VERY effectively. Picture having one hundred times as many units in each Garrison as you normally do; noone could hope to take a city from you, and if they even ventured into your battlespace - your "garrison" could pour out of the city En Masse and OBLITERATE you. And still cost nothing in Upkeep!
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:09 am

To Pax, about the decrypted use for turtling thing.

Agreed, and with zero-upkeep you can even pull something else. Perpetual blitzkrieg.

If you do not require upkeep, or "very little" compared to the size of your army, then holding territory makes little sense. You could keep your army in one huge extremely dense ball of death that nobody would think about attacking, and move this ball around the map conquering and razeing as you go. Razeing is important, you won't try to hold on to cities, except maybe the last one you conquered (maybe you have this one caster that needs upkeep); denying them to the enemy is important.

One of the reasons why blitzkriegs stop eventually is that they tend to progress, more or less, in a line-like fashion. Which means you get a long, long border to defend and eventually this would force you to stop and consolidate ... unless you don't care about the conquered territory.

The above is of course hypothetical. GK is not a purely-decrypted side, so they do need to defend their conquests. Dwagons don't feed themselves and all.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Pax » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:01 am

If I were controlling a Decrypted "death-ball", I'd do this:
  • All new production not required for garrison duty, is immedately forwarded to the Field Army;
  • In all battles, non-decrypted units are "First in, Last out";
  • Whenever a battle is fought, newly-decrypted units go first to replace Decrypted losses in the Field Army;
  • If a city of other garrison-able structure was taken in this battle, a new garrison is assigned out of the available newly-decrypted units;
  • Whatever is left over from those new units, if anything, is split 50/50. One half stays with the Field Army, increasing it's strength ... the other half is assigned to Garrison duty;
  • All non-decrypted Garrison units are replaced with Decrypted units on a 1:1 basis, ASAP. The non-decrypted units are promoted to Field status, and sent to join the Field Army;
  • Once all garrisons are 100% Decrypted, additional garrison-assigned Decrypted are proportionally distributed among all existing cities, garrisonable structures, and appropriate on-map strategic points (i.s., crossroads, that line of hills through the otherwise impassable mountains, etc).

Maximum oomf, for minimum upkeep - yet, with all cities still churning out new Units as fast as possible. Units which are then sent to the front, and used anywhere large losses are expected ... so that when they die, they can be decrypted, and reduce their upkeep to 0 for no (known) loss of military usefulness.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:27 am

The biggest problem with the "How I Would Use Decrypted" theories are that they all assume Wanda is the Overlord.
Stanley still is. Stanley's units are the dwagons, so those are the units that are going to be used most carefully.
Decrypted are loyal to Wanda, while regular units are loyal to Stanley.

If you were playing a game where you had access to decrypted units, but the decrypted were controlled by a single unit, and that unit could in theory turn against you or disobey you, turning the entire army against you, would you build your whole strategy around them?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:50 am

MarbitChow wrote:The biggest problem with the "How I Would Use Decrypted" theories are that they all assume Wanda is the Overlord.


BLANDCorporatio wrote:{snipped, Decrypted for perpetual blitzkrieg} The above is of course hypothetical. GK is not a purely-decrypted side, so they do need to defend their conquests. Dwagons don't feed themselves and all.


Yes. Nobody disputes that. Still, they're fun to come up with.

Pax, yes that's a solid plan* but still a bit "inside the box", so to speak. You still want to control and use territory. I'd like to point out that a purely decrypted side could dispense with this. Nomadic, targetting power centers, razeing them to prevent them being used at full capacity to quickly; killing everyone else or at least keeping them down.

Which plan is better depends on the world size and the players in it, I guess. Intuitively, it makes sense that the safest way to deny territory to your enemies is to hold it ... but then again not being constrained to defend has its own liberating effects ...

*: again, we're just discussing a hypothetical decrypted-only side, or at least a side where the overlord commands such units almost exclusively. This is not the case for Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:34 am

Menas wrote:
Glory of Arioch wrote:So Gobwin Knob is committing all its fliers to attacking Jetstone? That's gonna leave GK's capital awfully open to a Jillian sortie...


I'm betting that's exactly what's going on.



I think not all fliers are at Jetstone. I think it's around a 2:1 split. So about 60 dwagons at Jetstone, and about 30 turtled down at GK. Same with Archons, about 20 are at Jetstone and 10 or so hunkered down at GK. That doesn't mean Charlie or Jillian won't try a strike at GK, just that I don't think it'll be successful, or entirely successful.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:45 am

Umm... all these decrypted plots are nice except for two flaws

a) Aforementioned Stanley, not trusting the unit which has already betrayed one side. I swear if GK had a better intergroup dynamic they would have no challenge. GK would have had (nearly) no trouble if it wasn't for the fail group dynamic.
b) Umm... I'm pretty sure we don't need any complex plans to kill units for decryption. Captured units are on the captors side. We see Wanda torturing Jillian, Bogroll getting crapped on, and Wrigly getting executed. They can just croak units as they pop.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:52 am

Does nobody read disclaimers in these parts?! Next, you'll tell me that you haven't read the EULA, Terms of Service and Privacy Agreement documents.

Lamech, I think that what Pax is getting at is that you can get one reverso-death in battle if you keep your regular units long enough to be sent to battle. Croak-n-Decrypt them as soon as they pop, and when they are killed in battle they get dusted. If they were still living when you sent them though, they get one extra life. Whether it's worth it or just a complication depends on how fast-and-usefully you can get them killed off.

Most of the time it really would make sense to just pop units on the executioner's block as you suggest.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:07 pm

If I had the 'Pliers, I'd build up a huge pile of cash, hire every caster in the Magic Kingdom for a single turn, spread them out into multiple hexes, break the alliance, croak and decrypt them all.
Then I'd send half of them back to the Magic Kingdom and have them croak and bring me any new casters that fled there from then on. :D
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:09 pm

THAT's the spirit!

And may I add, that plan is awesome!
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Rosa Vernal » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:18 pm

The plan is good in theory, but given the huge effects casters have, I would not want to throw an army at them because I'd lose a LOT of it. Not to mention how horrible for PR that'd be. You'd gain more enemies than allies.

I'd hire them, say, a few casters at a time, and send them into battle. THEN, when one or two 'accidentally' die, decrypt them. It's a slower plan, but it means there's less chance of getting booped by the MK. After all, the people who croaked understood the risks in their job.

EDIT: Also, you'd really think the MK residents would go "Huh, so this side that can resurrect things they croak back onto their side, and they want to hire most of our casters and send them into the field. This sounds like a splendid plan." ?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:24 pm

Rosa Vernal wrote:The plan is good in theory, but given the huge effects casters have, I would not want to throw an army at them because I'd lose a LOT of it. Not to mention how horrible for PR that'd be. You'd gain more enemies than allies.

I'd hire them, say, a few casters at a time, and send them into battle. THEN, when one or two 'accidentally' die, decrypt them. It's a slower plan, but it means there's less chance of getting booped by the MK. After all, the people who croaked understood the risks in their job.

EDIT: Also, you'd really think the MK residents would go "Huh, so this side that can resurrect things they croak back onto their side, and they want to hire most of our casters and send them into the field. This sounds like a splendid plan." ?


Well, the plan would only work before everyone found out about what the 'Pliers could do (so you'd have to do it first, before you started steamrolling cities).

But casters are typically very vulnerable in direct combat, unless they've got appropriate units supporting them. I think it would be worth losing 100s of stabbers for this operation, since the stabbers are MUCH easier to replace. :D (Even better if you can use non-decrypted stabbers first!)

Plus, you could group the 'weaker in combat' casters (healamancers, dollamancers, etc.) in one big hex and mow them all down (I'm assuming dollamancers/dirtamancers are easier targets w/out golems and dolls for support, and you can dish out more damage than the healamancers can restore), while spreading the combat-heavy ones out into multiple hexes, so they can't help each other.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby atteSmythe » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:31 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't yet know if decrypted casters can still cast. Uncroaked cannot, though they're unthinking...it'd be an interesting point, philosophically and from a world-building perspective, if decrypted casters lose their ability to control magic.

I think we're assuming that they can because the archons can...but that's not really the same, they're 'spell-like abilities' for lack of a better term.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:32 pm

I'm sure a great many rulers have had plans to take control of the magic kindgom and get its casters. Invasion, infiltrater casters, hire a bunch and turn them ect. I'm sure every ruler who was ever had one of those thoughts have had a conversation with an army of annoyed casters that goes like this...

Caster: So umm... our predictamancers tell us that you were planning on invading us.
Ruler: No I'm pretty sure I wasn't. Never would ever do anything like that.
Caster: Oh wait... it says after becoming overlord, your heir tries this.
Ruler: ... oh good! Now that we got that cleared u-
Caster: We're still croaking you.
Ruler: ... ... ... I hate you all.
Last edited by Lamech on Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby Decorus » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:35 pm

If Charles tossed 600 archons at GK it really doesn't matter if Parson is there or not Charles would win. The only thing that is keeping Charles from doing that is it would reveal just how powerful he/she/it is. Hence Charles not doing it. Upkeep is a non issue as most of Charles cash comes from being the Telecom company of Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby PurpleLemur » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:37 pm

I truly enjoy this comic, whilst the change of artist may be noticeable I do not think it's negative, merely different.

While I'm posting... surely Decrypted have a weakness that can be exploited, making them slightly more balanced than they are currently. At the moment they seem far better than their living equivilent. Perhaps they have a weakness to a certain type of caster. Such as, perhaps, Hippiemancy.

Just a thought.

Also, my first post. Go me.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:41 pm

Ressurrect kills zombie.

Heal harms undead.

Something like that?

But yeah, the Decrypted are like the Borg right now.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 4

Postby DevilDan » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:43 pm

Decorus wrote:If Charles tossed 600 archons at GK it really doesn't matter if Parson is there or not Charles would win. The only thing that is keeping Charles from doing that is it would reveal just how powerful he/she/it is. Hence Charles not doing it. Upkeep is a non issue as most of Charles cash comes from being the Telecom company of Erfworld.


Archons seem to be fairly powerful and versatile units, but the ones we've seen thus far may simply be more experienced ones. Regardless of that, though, we have to assume that they have limitations, that they have weaknesses. At minimum, it seems likely that the archons may not have much experience at fighting battles where they are the main force as opposed to being heavies/specialists assisting larger forces. They may lack not just the experience but even a suitable doctrine for waging such a battle.
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