Book 2 – Page 5

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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby RukhHammerwing » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:13 pm

Why did Parson take off his bracer? Is he not giving Wanda the benefit of his statistical skills?

edit: And who is the sad, lonely little warlord in the last panel with no dwagon to ride? That has to be a blow to his loyalty score...
Last edited by RukhHammerwing on Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby OneHugeTuck » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:14 pm

DevilDan wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:Why didn't the Wanda's veil drop like everyone elses?

What veil? Her hair, clothes, and makeup are "authentic," not foolamancy.



I know, I was using irony, or sarcasm, or whatever accurately applies.

She does not at all look like Wanda. Do Not Want.
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The caster Deux Ex potential...

Postby multilis » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:22 pm

Foreshadowing:

Royals have uniroyal casters hirable.

Charlie hires all his casters and has a good reputation.

1 Hippymancer and 4 thinkomancers were involved in seemingly unselfish effort to help GK mancers for mysterious reasons.

Portals are instant even on enemies turn.

IMO a plot device exists for all three sides to pull mancers out of a hat and the abillities of these mancers are unknown and unlimited to do whatever plot wants, which gives *potential* for them to be used as a Deux Ex (in sense of first paragraph of wikipedia)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Menas » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:24 pm

multilis wrote:
Menas wrote:He could still have pretended this no problem. Having some air units scouting would not have destroyed the rest of the illusion. Now they're stuck gathering intelligence in a combat situation when they should already have the facts they needed at hand. If they get intelligence that indicates attacking isn't a viable option, then they'll have to retreat and their forces will be in jeopardy. If they'd checked things out before hand they wouldn't have needed to risk their forces to find out what they already could have known.


I disagree. One has to pretend to be a fool in order to pull off a ruse. If Ansom scouted too well, then moved up "siege engines" when obvious that even Ansom may realise the siege engines would fail, the enemy would better suspect the foolomancy.

As well, scouting carries risks/you may lose units and give away intel about what you have and where.


If it were me I'd rather risk not pulling off the ruse than risk unwittingly walking into a trap.

I'm not able to agree with you on the scouting. A lone dragon scouting by itself doesn't give the enemy any intelligence other than that the enemy is scouting. It's true that they would have known Jetstone was a potential target once they encountered a scout. But it's pretty obvious from the force massed there that they've known that for a long time anyway, even without the scouts.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Menas » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:26 pm

RukhHammerwing wrote:Why did Parson take off his bracer? Is he not giving Wanda the benefit of his statistical skills?


I hadn't noticed that!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby multilis » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:29 pm

Menas wrote:
multilis wrote:
Menas wrote:He could still have pretended this no problem. Having some air units scouting would not have destroyed the rest of the illusion. Now they're stuck gathering intelligence in a combat situation when they should already have the facts they needed at hand. If they get intelligence that indicates attacking isn't a viable option, then they'll have to retreat and their forces will be in jeopardy. If they'd checked things out before hand they wouldn't have needed to risk their forces to find out what they already could have known.


I disagree. One has to pretend to be a fool in order to pull off a ruse. If Ansom scouted too well, then moved up "siege engines" when obvious that even Ansom may realise the siege engines would fail, the enemy would better suspect the foolomancy.

As well, scouting carries risks/you may lose units and give away intel about what you have and where.


If it were me I'd rather risk not pulling off the ruse than risk unwittingly walking into a trap.

I'm not able to agree with you on the scouting. A lone dragon scouting by itself doesn't give the enemy any intelligence other than that the enemy is scouting. It's true that they would have known Jetstone was a potential target once they encountered a scout. But it's pretty obvious from the force massed there that they've known that for a long time anyway, even without the scouts.

A lone archon/dragon may have been used to scout (see forces at bridge then return). What GK didn't do yet is a more careful/massive scouting, not easy to do that from a distance and carries increased risk of losses. (Similarly, in book 1 Ansom sent Jillian as a lone scout yet was mostly blind)

We *know* that GK's magic defences were enough to wipe out a significant force of scouting including archons. (The archon not appear to get a report out before she died). We also know that Caeser almost died to a suprise in summer updates and TVs bats seem to be the perfect scouts, and Caeser's personal stack was a match for dragons from ambush on Stanley.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby atteSmythe » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:40 pm

RukhHammerwing wrote:edit: And who is the sad, lonely little warlord in the last panel with no dwagon to ride? That has to be a blow to his loyalty score...

Wrigley. They took his spear and didn't even give him a dragon. Meanies!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Menas » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:03 pm

multilis wrote:A lone archon/dragon may have been used to scout (see forces at bridge then return). What GK didn't do yet is a more careful/massive scouting, not easy to do that from a distance and carries increased risk of losses. (Similarly, in book 1 Ansom sent Jillian as a lone scout yet was mostly blind)

We *know* that GK's magic defences were enough to wipe out a significant force of scouting including archons. (The archon not appear to get a report out before she died). We also know that Caeser almost died to a suprise in summer updates and TVs bats seem to be the perfect scouts, and Caeser's personal stack was a match for dragons from ambush on Stanley.


I was just talking about scouting the area around the capital. With the move that Archons/Dwagons have it wouldn't have taken many of them to cover a vast area. Not much risk there.

In book 1 the reason Ansom 'wasn't' blind was 'because' Jillian scouted for him. He would have been torched if Jillian hadn't found the dwagons over the lake. Which was yet another example of Ansom rushing in without knowing all of the facts.

The reference to Caesar doesn't appear to apply. That effort had nothing to do with scouting, it had everything to do with being undermanned. To the point where Caesar was wondering if the Don was trying to get him killed intentionally.

But your Jillian example brings up another interesting point. In Book 1 the reason Jillian didn't get croaked is because Ansom was able to intervene on Jillian's turn. Jillian was attacking the dwagons and Ansom was able to move to help. So that makes me wonder if RCC forces can come to each other's aid regardless of who's turn it is, as long as it's the turn of one of the RCC members.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby SteveMB » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:05 pm

Menas wrote:But your Jillian example brings up another interesting point. In Book 1 the reason Jillian didn't get croaked is because Ansom was able to intervene on Jillian's turn. Jillian was attacking the dwagons and Ansom was able to move to help. So that makes me wonder if RCC forces can come to each other's aid regardless of who's turn it is, as long as it's the turn of one of the RCC members.

IIRC, when sides are acting as an alliance they all move on the same turn (whichever is the latest in the natural sequence). That was the basis of the alliance-shift exploit used to pursue Stanley -- on their first turn, they remained as part of the RCC and moved late in the day; then they broke that alliance and allied with Transylvito to move early in the day (before Stanley) on the next turn.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Menas » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:10 pm

SteveMB wrote:
Menas wrote:But your Jillian example brings up another interesting point. In Book 1 the reason Jillian didn't get croaked is because Ansom was able to intervene on Jillian's turn. Jillian was attacking the dwagons and Ansom was able to move to help. So that makes me wonder if RCC forces can come to each other's aid regardless of who's turn it is, as long as it's the turn of one of the RCC members.

IIRC, when sides are acting as an alliance they all move on the same turn (whichever is the latest in the natural sequence). That was the basis of the alliance-shift exploit used to pursue Stanley -- on their first turn, they remained as part of the RCC and moved late in the day; then they broke that alliance and allied with Transylvito to move early in the day (before Stanley) on the next turn.


Thanks, that makes sense. Especially if the RCC takes the turn of whichever member is leading the RCC (when they re-formed it was Transylvito).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby multilis » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:21 pm

Menas wrote:The reference to Caesar doesn't appear to apply. That effort had nothing to do with scouting, it had everything to do with being undermanned. To the point where Caesar was wondering if the Don was trying to get him killed intentionally.

But your Jillian example brings up another interesting point. In Book 1 the reason Jillian didn't get croaked is because Ansom was able to intervene on Jillian's turn. Jillian was attacking the dwagons and Ansom was able to move to help. So that makes me wonder if RCC forces can come to each other's aid regardless of who's turn it is, as long as it's the turn of one of the RCC members.

Caesar was *suprised*, ambushed by hidden city defences despite having bats.

I don't think with one scout on his turn Ansom could know all about GK, he had vinny's bats available and 3 of the best of Charlies archons. ("You get what you pay for and Ansom paid alot", if Ansom could have known all about GK with a single scout rather than just hints and he didn't use one, he was completely incompetent)

I guess a lone scout could see a big army by the bridge, some forces guarding the capital, but not all the details of the bridge force and not *most* of the details of the force inside the city (defender can keep them in dungeons or another zone not visable while not his turn for 0 movement cost). I am guessing the suprise is hidden inside the capital, would explain Jetstone's bragging as wanting to wait till their turn to fight.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Menas » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:52 pm

multilis wrote:I don't think with one scout on his turn Ansom could know all about GK, he had vinny's bats available and 3 of the best of Charlies archons. ("You get what you pay for and Ansom paid alot", if Ansom could have known all about GK with a single scout rather than just hints and he didn't use one, he was completely incompetent)

I guess a lone scout could see a big army by the bridge, some forces guarding the capital, but not all the details of the bridge force and not *most* of the details of the force inside the city. I am guessing the suprise is hidden inside the capital, would explain Jetstone's bragging as wanting to wait till their turn to fight.


I'm not sure what we're debating at this point. From what you wrote here it sounds like you're saying:

- That I said Ansom could know everything about GK with one scout in the example from book 1.

I never said that. What I said was that what happened in book 1 was another example of how Ansom got himself into trouble by taking action without scouting first. And he got lucky that Jillian was able to find Parson's dwagon's via scouting when it mattered. Ansom SHOULD have scouted more first. Vinny's bats can scout, and he had plenty of them.

- I guess a lone scout could see a big army by the bridge, some forces guarding the capital, but not all the details of the bridge force and not *most* of the details of the force inside the city. I am guessing the suprise is hidden inside the capital, would explain Jetstone's bragging as wanting to wait till their turn to fight.

With this statement it sounds like you're saying that any surprises are hidden inside the capital, and any surprises they may face outside would be inconsequential. That's a pretty big assumption to make. I don't think Parson was suggesting to scout the capital, I think he was suggesting to scout around it. And I don't think he would have suggested it if it was an exercise in futility.

Sure, it would be great if they could get some information about the capital, but that would probably have to be through some other means than scouting. They've already committed their forces to attacking the capital, and there's no easy way to scout a capital, so the only way they're going to find out what's going on in the capital is to either turn/decrypt one of the RCC forces, or attack it. Well, these are the only ways I know of. Maybe lookamancy or something like that would work also.

Since it looks like Jetstone has their forces committed to the field, there's good reason to attack the capital. But there might be surprises, either inside or outside of the capital.

So I guess we're in agreement on some things - if it's possible, it makes sense for GK to try to do both. Scout around the capital AND try to decrypt someone who can tell them what's going on (or find out what's going on in the capital through some other means).

I was simply saying that the scouting part can and should have been done earlier.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby splintermute » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:55 pm

I think it's entirely possible that Spacerock will pull some surprise out of a hat - they seem to have a magic user specifically designed for that purpose.

The messaging hats can transmit messages through "hat-space," but that seems somewhat underpowered compared to the instant 2-way communication of think-a-grams. Hat magic needs to have something more going for it. My theory is that, in the hands of a hat mage, considerably more things could be transmitted through hat-space, perhaps even units, although to prevent it from being some kind of overpowering teleportation hack, it would probably have limits - perhaps a limited number of units, perhaps they could only be recalled to a capital (several wargames do have a "recall" type spell that lets you 'port field units to your home base, even if they don't necessarily permit generalized teleportation).

If GK's going to circumvent the casters in the bridge hex and attack the garrison, I'm excited to see what Cubbins can do.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Mikalyaran » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:27 pm

I was surprised by all this talk of Spacerock so I looked into it. Spacerock is mentioned on the cast page back on giantitp. That cast page isn't canon. What's that you say? How could it not be Canon? Rob has said so himself. So Spacerock is a convienent name for the Jetstone capital for now but don't get too attached to it. Personally I think Jetstone makes sense for the Capital name.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:33 pm

splintermute wrote:I think it's entirely possible that Spacerock will pull some surprise out of a hat - they seem to have a magic user specifically designed for that purpose.

The messaging hats can transmit messages through "hat-space," but that seems somewhat underpowered compared to the instant 2-way communication of think-a-grams. Hat magic needs to have something more going for it. My theory is that, in the hands of a hat mage, considerably more things could be transmitted through hat-space, perhaps even units, although to prevent it from being some kind of overpowering teleportation hack, it would probably have limits - perhaps a limited number of units, perhaps they could only be recalled to a capital (several wargames do have a "recall" type spell that lets you 'port field units to your home base, even if they don't necessarily permit generalized teleportation).

If GK's going to circumvent the casters in the bridge hex and attack the garrison, I'm excited to see what Cubbins can do.


I forsee him pulling a Dwagon out of his hat.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Lunaya » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:09 pm

I'm liking Maggie's new look, a miniskirt and everything! ;) Think she's trying to get Parson's attention?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby SteveMB » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:15 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:I forsee him pulling a Dwagon out of his hat.


"That trick never works!"
"This time, for sure!"
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Lamech » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:41 pm

I bet if the hatamancer linked up with a ryhmeamancer he could pull a voom out of his hat. (Maybe he just needs to be level Z though.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby HailGreen28 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:44 pm

1. Parson should be running calcs! The Bracer can predict the future! (Maybe that would make for a dull story)

2. Wanda shouldn't make the mistake many military and political leaders make: Don't lose sight of your primary objective!!! The overwhelming effort should be to take Jetstone's capital. If Wanda now has some secondary goal in mind, in addition to just scouting purposes, this could end very badly for her.

3. Maybe Ansom should scout the same way he did at the sub-battle of the Dwagon Donut. Send an expendable unit into a hex first, to see what's there. (Too bad Misty's gone) Even send an Archon ahead if you're really worried about veils. Archons may be hard to come by, but this is a priceless opportunity to take the capital of maybe your second most dangerous opponent or fall into a trap doing so, worth the expense IMO. If you only have Dwagon or Archons to send in, I think the cheapest option would be sending a Dwagon, if you can decrypt the Dwagon afterwards.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 5

Postby Infidel » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:56 pm

Unfortunately, any coerced information is not nearly as valid as physical verification. Even if the decwypted person freely divulges everything he knows, it doesn't allow for any intel that is not known. Only physically scouting the space will suffice. So no matter if she apprehends Ossomer himself, she is still leaving herself vulnerable to surprise.
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