Book 2 – Page 6

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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Ephir » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:33 pm

Gawd What I wouldn't give to be on the receiving end of that last panel display!!!

:oops:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby HandofShadows » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:43 pm

theseus2x wrote:Still... as cool as the strategy may sound, it still seems sketchy. You're going to risk Wanda, Jack, Ansom, a bunch of Dwagons and a few Archons for a plan that might work?


Those that risk, WIN.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:58 pm

My argument about the Flash Mob being non-magical are heavily biased by another underlying assumption that I've got: That the people of Erfworld are not just stats.

In my opinion, things like Duty and Loyalty aren't really stat-based - Erfworlders just use the idea of stats to explain Free Will, because they don't understand it otherwise (since there are so few opportunities to exercise it) - sort of like trying to understand Quantum Mechanics using only Newtonian ideas.

So I look at examples that closely mirror our normal human reactions, and I assume that, if it seems like a natural reaction, it is.
And a bunch of ladies flashing themselves would naturally act as a distraction, either to make the observer stare intently or look away in disgust (depending on orientation / prudishness).

It *isn't* likely to immediately make the target think "They are flashing us, so what *don't* they want us to see?"
That level of suspicion might reside in another Foolamancer, or someone as paranoid as Parson, but not in your standard stabber, or even your basic Warlord type.

Jack, being an expert on misdirection, would be the best person to judge whether the misdirection is effective or not, no matter whether it was magical or not.
His acceptance of it only implies that he thinks it is effective enough - not 100% foolproof.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby theseus2x » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:10 pm

Okay, very good, but...

What about the female units in that hex? I doubt they'd be as distracted. (And we've obviously seen already that Jetstone uses female Warlords and other units.)

IMHO, I'm thinking some kind of natural Foolomancy is in play here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:53 pm

MarbitChow wrote:My argument about the Flash Mob being non-magical are heavily biased by another underlying assumption that I've got: That the people of Erfworld are not just stats.


They also don't appear to have many sexual taboos.

Also, the word "shock" in specific has been used before in the context of Shockamancy, one of the disciplines Archons possess. It seems very clear that they're using Shockamancy. At best, you might argue that it's natural shockamancy, but I don't think you can make a reasonable case for it being completely non-magical.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby noxharrington » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:13 pm

MarbitChow wrote:My argument about the Flash Mob being non-magical are heavily biased by another underlying assumption that I've got: That the people of Erfworld are not just stats.
...
So I look at examples that closely mirror our normal human reactions, and I assume that, if it seems like a natural reaction, it is.
And a bunch of ladies flashing themselves would naturally act as a distraction, either to make the observer stare intently or look away in disgust (depending on orientation / prudishness).

It *isn't* likely to immediately make the target think "They are flashing us, so what *don't* they want us to see?"


Yeah, except there's a huge army behind the boobies! If it were to suddenly, for example, disappear or start changing, I would be ALSO very interested in watching, and able to see, that. If Jack thinks that everyone in the hex will be literally UNABLE TO SEE the huge army they are about to fight, it MUST be a magical effect. I mean, come on.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:28 pm

noxharrington wrote:Yeah, except there's a huge army behind the boobies! If it were to suddenly, for example, disappear or start changing, I would be ALSO very interested in watching, and able to see, that. If Jack thinks that everyone in the hex will be literally UNABLE TO SEE the huge army they are about to fight, it MUST be a magical effect. I mean, come on.


The effect he mentioned was "a simple displacement", which I'm assuming means that the current units get turned invisible, and illusionary copies of them duplicate their movements, but moving in a different direction.
It also doesn't sound like they're going to hit the whole army - just a select strike force.

The distraction would, I had assumed, prevent the quick flicker / glow from casting as the units are displaced from being noticed when it occurs, but anyone looking at the hex after the casting completes wouldn't notice anything amiss.

*shrug* We'll know better on Wednesday, probably, but I prefer my magic to have more obvious magical effects. Even the Thinkamancy "Ruthlessness" ability at least made Parson's eyes glow for a moment.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:32 pm

DoctorJest wrote:At best, you might argue that it's natural shockamancy, but I don't think you can make a reasonable case for it being completely non-magical.

Huh. And here I was thinking that, if something appeared natural, you actually had to make the case to prove that it was magical.
Or is the default assumption in Erfworld that everything is magical, and every single action gets classified as some sort of *mancy?
Is asking a girl if she likes you "natural date-amancy"?

Note that I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I'm just wondering what the default assumptions people are operating off of.
If *everything* in Erfworld is magical, I'll gladly concede the point that it's clearly natural shockamancy (or natural naughtymancy), if that's the set of assumptions we're working with.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby Pointyleaf » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:40 pm

HandofShadows wrote:
theseus2x wrote:Still... as cool as the strategy may sound, it still seems sketchy. You're going to risk Wanda, Jack, Ansom, a bunch of Dwagons and a few Archons for a plan that might work?


Those that risk, WIN.


Like Napoleon and John Brown, right?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:44 pm

Pointyleaf wrote:
HandofShadows wrote:Those that risk, WIN.


Like Napoleon and John Brown, right?


No. Like Churchill.

Getting involved in a land war with Russia in winter is not "risk", it's suicide.

PS: don't know bout John Brown, no comment on that one.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby HailGreen28 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:36 pm

I don't know why everybody's confused about the effects of what the Archons are doing. Women have this same super power in real life. :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby noxharrington » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:45 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:I don't know why everybody's confused about the effects of what the Archons are doing. Women have this same super power in real life. :P


HAHAHA

But, no, they don't.

And MarbitChow - I don't assume everything in ErfWorld operates with magic, but it seems like almost everything operates according to game rules. Whether the Erfworlders classify this flash as "mancy" or not, the point is they seem to think that this will MAKE everyone unable to see what is behind the Archons, in a more-than-RL-way. I would call it 'magic' if it happened in this world, but if it's not in any branch of mancy, the point stands.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:08 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:At best, you might argue that it's natural shockamancy, but I don't think you can make a reasonable case for it being completely non-magical.

Huh. And here I was thinking that, if something appeared natural, you actually had to make the case to prove that it was magical.
Or is the default assumption in Erfworld that everything is magical, and every single action gets classified as some sort of *mancy?
Is asking a girl if she likes you "natural date-amancy"?

Note that I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I'm just wondering what the default assumptions people are operating off of.
If *everything* in Erfworld is magical, I'll gladly concede the point that it's clearly natural shockamancy (or natural naughtymancy), if that's the set of assumptions we're working with.


The fact that they used the term "shocking" the enemy troops, which we know is exactly what Shockamancy does, pretty much implicitly states that "shock" is achieved through "shockamancy". So if the Archons "shocked" the enemy troops, which Jack says is exactly what they're doing, they're doing it through Shockamancy, be it Natural Shockamancy or not.

And yes, pretty much everything in Erfworld works on Magical Laws. Maggie explained that to Parson in the summer updates. Things like a Warlord commanding his troops is Natural Thinkamancy, for example. To suppose that magical effects, like Shocking, can be achieved through mundane non-magical means goes against pretty much everything we've learned about Erfworld to date, especially in the summer updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:09 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:I don't know why everybody's confused about the effects of what the Archons are doing. Women have this same super power in real life. :P


You've never been to New Orleans, have you?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:11 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Pointyleaf wrote:
HandofShadows wrote:Those that risk, WIN.


Like Napoleon and John Brown, right?


No. Like Churchill.

Getting involved in a land war with Russia in winter is not "risk", it's suicide.



I dunno, pretty much every game of Risk I've ever played usually ends up with... OHHH nevermind. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 pm

noxharrington wrote:
HailGreen28 wrote:I don't know why everybody's confused about the effects of what the Archons are doing. Women have this same super power in real life. :P


HAHAHA

But, no, they don't.

And MarbitChow - I don't assume everything in ErfWorld operates with magic, but it seems like almost everything operates according to game rules. Whether the Erfworlders classify this flash as "mancy" or not, the point is they seem to think that this will MAKE everyone unable to see what is behind the Archons, in a more-than-RL-way. I would call it 'magic' if it happened in this world, but if it's not in any branch of mancy, the point stands.


It is. Observe:

We know some Archons have Shockamancy
We know using Shockamancy is called "Shocking".
We know the Archons are Shocking the enemy troops (thanks to Jack)

If A = B and B = C then A = C

Archons Shocking Troops = Archons using Shockamancy. Because Shockamancy is how Shocking occurs.
The only question is if they're engaging in Shockamancy through an actual ability or if they're using Natural Shockamancy. But if the enemy is being shocked, and Jack assures us it is, then Shockamancy is being used.

Logic FTW.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby DevilDan » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:17 pm

I don't know what'll happen to Jack eventually, but I'm enjoying all his appearances lately. Plus, he's dressed as joker from Batman, hat and all. It's just too booping good.

His unsubtle sassing of Ansom is a little surprising. But that's just how he is, I guess.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:26 pm

DoctorJest wrote:We know some Archons have Shockamancy
We know using Shockamancy is called "Shocking".
We know the Archons are Shocking the enemy troops (thanks to Jack)

If A = B and B = C then A = C

Logic FTW.


Nothing is better than Eternal Happiness.
A ham sandwich is better than nothing.
Therefore, a ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness... :D

------

The way I read it, the 'shocking' action that Jack is referring to applies to the actual attack that is about to be made, not to the distraction that the Flash Mob is creating. I think that the Archons are about to stun the heck out of Ossimer's stack using Shockamancy. I'm still not convinced that the Flash Mob is using Shockamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby OneHugeTuck » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:40 pm

SurvivorX wrote:Look at the "magic flashing" question it this way: Archons only have abilities from the set of dancefighting, leadership, shockmancy, thinkamancy, foolamancy, and dollamancy.

It's definitely not a leadership, dancefighting, or dollamancy thing, which whittles it down a bit. Also bear in mind that they combined their Leadership, Dancefighting, and Foolamancy powers to do the DDR trick at tBfGK, so it's entirely possible that this particular trick is a combination Foolamancy/Shockmancy ability.



Actually, it could be under dancefighting.

http://www.freshenmeup.com/new-york-underwear-flash-mob.htm

Ok, that wasn't the best example. Just google 'flashmob'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 6

Postby atteSmythe » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:19 pm

MarbitChow wrote:The effect he mentioned was "a simple displacement", which I'm assuming means that the current units get turned invisible, and illusionary copies of them duplicate their movements, but moving in a different direction.
It also doesn't sound like they're going to hit the whole army - just a select strike force.

The distraction would, I had assumed, prevent the quick flicker / glow from casting as the units are displaced from being noticed when it occurs, but anyone looking at the hex after the casting completes wouldn't notice anything amiss.

The above is exactly how I view the intent of the flash...which is why I'm a bit confused as to the significance of whether or not the Archons are using magic to execute it. So long as what they're doing masks the casting of the displacement, mission accomplished.
Last edited by atteSmythe on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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