Book 2 – Page 7

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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby splintermute » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:25 pm

Dyne wrote:We don't know of any spells that can be cast across hexes (Except that one time).


Thinkagrams.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:33 pm

DevilDan wrote:We know of one rock-solid, inappellable example of someone doing magic before the start of the turn: Sizemore uses his shovel-wand to lift out a gem from the ground well before dawn and the start of GK's turn, which is shown by the popping of a dwagon, Stanley beginning to move, and, oh yeah, Wanda's announcement of the fact.


True, it's magic. But did he cast? Maybe his shovel is a magic item. It would make sense for him to store certain frequently used spells in a item. That way he can dig all day, even when GK only takes a short turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby oslecamo2 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:23 pm

Eeerrr, if dittomancers could duplicate units, Ansom would've mentioned that!

When he's informed that there's a dittomancer on the field, he only mentiones duplicating bonuses and combat statistics.

If a dittomancer could duplicate units, why stop at the leaders? Duplicate all your best units! Duplicate your casters! Heck, why risk losing your precious chief warlord when you could double him and thus have a spare one if something went bad? Like, you know, Ansom?

Altough I support the theory that what's in the field it's actualy two brainwashed and disguised mooks to lure the forces of GK in (I've defended it since page 6 but nobody seemed to notice my theory grumble grumble), but I really don't see the dittomancer having anything to do with it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Joe22c. » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Quick question; there's a ring of dead red-cape-wearing troops around the warlord brothers; were they also warlords? If so, dayumn, Jetstone just lost serious leadership bonuses.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby atteSmythe » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:40 pm

Thydron wrote:The dittomancer can't cast unless it's his turn or his hex is attacked - it's GK's turn and we've seen him since they entered the hex, very clearly not casting.

Tramennis is clever - I believe the theory is that, expecting some sort of trap, he would have ordered himself and Ossomer ditto'd when they arrived, and sent the clones to parley when GK's forces reached the bridge.

oslecamo2 wrote:Eeerrr, if dittomancers could duplicate units, Ansom would've mentioned that!

But he did!

"Yes, and a Dittomancer doubling leadership and specials...duplicating surviving units...I see." (Page 4)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Smoker » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:54 pm

I will be very upset if they ARE ditto'd. Surely the way that Ansom doesn't raise some serious ditto-related objection to the plan (so far his only objection was that they dont need the intel) implies that he is confident that the units are the real deal. Im placing my bets that ditto'd units are somehow recognisable.

Interesting point: If one of the boys is captured, would Slately disband him to prevent his turning? Ruthless, but you'd think with the former cheif warlord of Jetstone knocking on his door, Slately would realise what the potential for disaster would be.

Another thing: Im just gonna come out and say it. I dont like the Dittomancer. Specifically, I dont like the way he speaks. I just feel that if he's always going to be repeating himself, or talking in a heavily characterised manner, its going to be hard to get to know the 'real' him. Having said that, Rob did a truly titanic job with Jack when he was mad.. so you know.. its a provisional judgement. I suppose its like how many people got a bad first impression from Tremennis, but are now warming to him after just a few panels. Maybe I'll come around too :)

Edit: Or maybe the ol' perve will just get croaked in a turn or two and save us all the bother :P
Last edited by Smoker on Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby raphfrk » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:57 pm

atteSmythe wrote:duplicating surviving units


I wonder if it almost like the opposite of croakamancy. Rather than getting a unit in exchange for a dead unit, you get one for any surviving ones.

Ofc, that would be pretty overpowered. Presumably, copied units would also decay like uncroaked and be much weaker than the original.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby oslecamo2 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:59 pm

atteSmythe wrote:But he did!

"Yes, and a Dittomancer doubling leadership and specials...duplicating surviving units...I see." (Page 4)


Notice the surviving part. It's combat statistics manipulation. Combat in Efworld is statistic based. What that line refers to is that a dittomancer can double your statistics of survivng a blow, not duplicating the units themselves. If they could just duplicate units, the surviving part would make no sense in that sentence.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:05 pm

YEAY!

REGULAR TEXT UPDATES!

I think I liked the summer updates as much or more than the webcomic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby raphfrk » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:20 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:YEAY!

REGULAR TEXT UPDATES!

I think I liked the summer updates as much or more than the webcomic.


I think it was pretty obvious that, given the detail/quality level of the comic, it would be hard to maintain the schedule. Comics which do, have full time artists.

However, this seems like a good compromise. The original plan was to have text updates between each 25 page "issue".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Smoker » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:21 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:YEAY!

REGULAR TEXT UPDATES!

I think I liked the summer updates as much or more than the webcomic.


Oh wow, I just noticed that. Personally I think a combination of the two is a great idea. I love the comic format, but we get so much raw info, both on characters and game mechanics, from text. Im really really happy about this.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby atteSmythe » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:22 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:What that line refers to is that a dittomancer can double your statistics of survivng a blow, not duplicating the units themselves.

I admit that the 'surviving' part is an interesting wording, but I take it the same way as raphfrk - the inverse of Croakamancy, and why Jetstone would see Croakamancy as such an abomination. If dittoed units also last some time in proportion to the care and attention in casting, it's possible that duplicating the army in the battle might only last a turn, while only a pair of dittoed princes could last longer. If that's the case, you'd want the Dittomancer to save his juice and cast the ditto once combat starts.

I know the above is reading a lot into that line as well, but I just can't read "duplicate surviving units" as "double units' chances of survival." I just don't see any way of reading that interpretation without changing what's written. Allowing the duplication of units both fits what Ansom said and provides an opportunity for Wanda's plan to go awry.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Smoker » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:43 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:
atteSmythe wrote:But he did!

"Yes, and a Dittomancer doubling leadership and specials...duplicating surviving units...I see." (Page 4)


Notice the surviving part. It's combat statistics manipulation. Combat in Efworld is statistic based. What that line refers to is that a dittomancer can double your statistics of survivng a blow, not duplicating the units themselves. If they could just duplicate units, the surviving part would make no sense in that sentence.


Maybe its an action that can only be taken immediately after an engagement?

I think the word 'duplicating' gives some clue thats its an action unto itself. I dont think that doubling specials could guarantee that you'll halve your casualties. Especially when you see moves like Shocktreatment.. if that stack DOES have its specials doubled, I dont think that you can say for certain that one of the two surviving units would have croaked without it, and if it DOESN'T have its specials doubled, I dont think you can say that exactly two of the warlords would have survived if it had.

Now if he'd said "increasing" instead of "duplicating", I'd be with you 100%, but its just that use of the word 'duplicating' makes me think otherwise. Having said that, I do see your point - a lot of speculation has been placed in that one very ambiguous word.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby oslecamo2 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:05 pm

atteSmythe wrote:I know the above is reading a lot into that line as well, but I just can't read "duplicate surviving units" as "double units' chances of survival." I just don't see any way of reading that interpretation without changing what's written. Allowing the duplication of units both fits what Ansom said and provides an opportunity for Wanda's plan to go awry.


It doesn't fit what Ansom said, because even he would've seen such an obvious trap. It's the dittomancer of his old side. He knows what he can and can't do, and if he could clone the princes, his duty would force him to warn Wanda that they were all walking into a trap.

Really, there's no sensible translation to what Ansom said. He's speculating, throwing half-phrases mixed with gaming terms.

However, some kind of ability where units surviving from a batle perform mythosis and split into two identical beings just makes no sense whatsoever in a fantasy game.

From all we know, Ansom could just be mentioning that doubling the leadership and special bonuses would mean that the forces of Jetsone would only take half the casualities they would take whitout a dittomancer, wich is already quite strong.

But your interpretation? Make one stack fight the enemy, then pull back before you take loses. The stack doubles in size. Repeat ad nausem. Curb stomp everything and everyone with your exponential growth army.

Hmm, I don't think so.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby robak » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:25 pm

Maybe after a battle units that have been beaten are not necessarily dead, but there's a survival roll and the dittomancer can double the chances on that roll.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby atteSmythe » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:25 pm

oslecamo2 wrote:But your interpretation? Make one stack fight the enemy, then pull back before you take loses. The stack doubles in size. Repeat ad nausem. Curb stomp everything and everyone with your exponential growth army.

Repeat until the Dittomancer runs out of juice, anyway. And you can't completely eliminate the ability of the enemy to do damage - even when Parson was doing his surgical strikes, archers still got their hitsies.

We simply disagree that duplicating a unit doesn't fit thematically. I think it'd fit Erfworld perfectly. In any case, I imagine this situation will be resolved shortly.

Ansom may be a decent tactician, but his record is not very good when it comes to spotting traps.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby mustaju » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:43 pm

First time poster, long time lurker, you know the drill.
Anyway, I think the Dittomancer's ability functions much like the "Clone" ability from the Heroes of Might and Magic series. You can only duplicate units that are participating in a current combat situation. Maybe surviving units level, so that it would make sense to cast it on stronger surviving units? The clones/Ditto'd units(that are clearly visually distinguishable, if not cast while linked foolamancers) do the same damage and have the same specials, but die much more quickly and vanish after the battle has ended.
I'm with the camp that says Ansom is being severely underestimated here - he was previously dealing with an opponent he had never encountered before, who was fighting with tactics that were very unorthodox, whereas now he fights against an enemy that he knows inside-out, at least magical capability-wise and in terms of leadership capability. Assuming Charlie isn't in the mix somehow, anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby raphfrk » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:46 pm

atteSmythe wrote:
oslecamo2 wrote:But your interpretation? Make one stack fight the enemy, then pull back before you take loses. The stack doubles in size. Repeat ad nausem. Curb stomp everything and everyone with your exponential growth army.

Repeat until the Dittomancer runs out of juice, anyway. And you can't completely eliminate the ability of the enemy to do damage - even when Parson was doing his surgical strikes, archers still got their hitsies.


Also, following the croakamancy rule, you wouldn't be allowed to copy copies.

Thus you could only gain 1 extra stack each time.

There could also be a copy at most once per turn rule.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby theseus2x » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:54 pm

Regarding Dittomancy, I started a thread :
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=833
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:44 pm

mustaju wrote:I'm with the camp that says Ansom is being severely underestimated here - he was previously dealing with an opponent he had never encountered before, who was fighting with tactics that were very unorthodox, whereas now he fights against an enemy that he knows inside-out, at least magical capability-wise and in terms of leadership capability. Assuming Charlie isn't in the mix somehow, anyway.

One problem with Ansom is that he's still bound by tradition.
Tactics such as Parson's false surrender assault are distasteful to him.
He's honor-bound to give his opponents a 'fighting chance' in battle.
In this situation, he will assume his family is also honor-bound.
However, the Jetstones are fighting for their very existence.
Ossomer might still follow the honorable path.
Trammenis seems more like Paron in this regard, so Ansom is probably in for a shock.
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