Book 2 – Page 7

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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby tez » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:17 pm

Smoker wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:YEAY!

REGULAR TEXT UPDATES!

I think I liked the summer updates as much or more than the webcomic.


Oh wow, I just noticed that. Personally I think a combination of the two is a great idea. I love the comic format, but we get so much raw info, both on characters and game mechanics, from text. Im really really happy about this.


Yeah me too. After the text updates the return to comic pages made it feel like the story was moving at a glacial pace.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Infidel » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:24 pm

starwoof wrote:Its definitely not King Slately, because that warlord is NOT a king. He dresses exactly like a common warlord, doesn't have a crown, and isn't especially regal. This is Jetstone, where they think royalty is the most important thing ever. Slately will be obvious when he shows up.


please watch your quote attributions. You're making it appear I wrote something I did not.

But... it does? Without the flash Jetstone would have seen jack cast a displacement... and not be fooled at all by it.


But it does not. "Something is necessary because it is necessary" is not an argument. Neither does saying something is so make it so. You have to prove it was necessary. Point to a reference that proves your point, don't just claim something and expect others to bow to your great wisdom.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Infidel » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:34 pm

Darkside007 wrote:So the King of Jetstone is out in the field, helping hold a bridge prior to a capital attack, without the ability to withdraw, and in a standard Warlord uniform while being handled dismissively by one of his casters?


Please note I was not making an argument in favor, I was simply saying that logic is not proof. This is an emotional issue, so someone might do something stupid for emotional reasons. Stating that no one would do something because it is stupid, is not a sufficient argument. As I stated, I don't think it's Slately either. It's extremely unlikely, but extremely unlikely does not equate to no way in hell.
The fact that he is standing right next to him and issuing him orders seem to imply that he is commanding at least one of the caster stacks.


Did you notice in the previous comic that Wanda was standing right next to Ansom giving him orders to stack up, ergo, he was in a different stack or she wouldn't have told him to stack up. Right next to, does not equate to same stack. They probably are in the same stack, but the evidence so far is not as conclusive as people make out. I'm just pointing out that people are coming to conclusions based on assumptions, not facts.


Or, to rephrase, Jack said 4(a). 4 is the conclusion (effectively a restatement) drawn from 4(a) - 4(c).


"Jack said" can be considered a proof. But he did not say Jack said. Instead it is Starwolf said. Please note that someone else convinced me a while back, but just because I agree with his conclusion, does not mean that I agree with is logic. "I have better logic and common sense than you" is not a winning argument.

Dr Quest DFA wrote:Also it looks like the attack was more effective than just dropping the warlord stack. There were also masses of Jetstone troops brought down as well (the gray blobs around the Brothers Jetstone). If they were croaked that means a bunch of decrypted units Wanda can raise to cause havok in the Jetstone ranks (commanded havok none the less if those warlords were also croaked).


I'm pretty sure that the grey is there to show that the others have commited their actions toward the decoys, so the two royals are totally isolated, even though they are surrounded by friends.
Last edited by Infidel on Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby The DM » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:59 pm

The displacement spell created duplicates some distance away and concealed the units' true location. On casting the spell, Ossomer, Tramennis, and the other noble warlords that were being targeted would have immediately seen what was going on. Hence, concealing the hex from them was vital to the deception. Note that the deception was primarily visual, as Tramennis was not completely fooled.

To preempt the argument that Jack's spell could have displayed with the illusory duplicates 'floating out of' the real units, leaving them invisible, that just doesn't make sense. It smacks of a complex foolamancy spell (similar to we see him doing to protect himself and Stanley at the battle with the TV warlords,) beyond the limits of what he could do 'cheaply'. Occam's razor doesn't hold up to such an argument. See? I fully consider the opposition's arguments ;)

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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:55 pm

Smoker wrote:I will be very upset if they ARE ditto'd. Surely the way that Ansom doesn't raise some serious ditto-related objection to the plan (so far his only objection was that they dont need the intel) implies that he is confident that the units are the real deal. Im placing my bets that ditto'd units are somehow recognisable.


I wouldn't be upset if they were ditto'd, of course Ansom has always seemed the type to make assumptions about his foes (overconfidence) - if it were possible I imagine it might not occur to him that noble sons of Jetstone might do something sneaky like sending out copies to meet him like that.

But I don't think it is possible like that, I can't see a ditto duplication, if it does copy units, creating something indistinguishable from the original.

I suppose its like how many people got a bad first impression from Tremennis, but are now warming to him after just a few panels. Maybe I'll come around too :)


I liked Trem from the beginning. I don't mind the dittomancer, but since how the cast is large and growing as it is I don't know if he'll become a regular (doesn't mean he has to die of course), so his dialogue so far is useful for developing his character a bit. Personally I'd like to see more of I.Brows, he seems like his head is screwed on right.

oslecamo2 wrote:Notice the surviving part. It's combat statistics manipulation.


I honestly don't know how, from that phrase, that conclusion can be reached. From my reading it is what it says - units that survive can be duplicated by the dittomancer.

It doesn't fit what Ansom said, because even he would've seen such an obvious trap. It's the dittomancer of his old side. He knows what he can and can't do, and if he could clone the princes, his duty would force him to warn Wanda that they were all walking into a trap.


Unless Ansom, being Ansom, doesn't let it enter his mind his brother might do something like that. After all he got croaked originally by accepting Parson's surrender was on the level (note, I don't actually think the princes are clones etc).

Really, there's no sensible translation to what Ansom said. He's speculating, throwing half-phrases mixed with gaming terms.


Well, as you said above - "he knows what he can and can't do" - so it isn't really speculation if that is true. He is thinking out loud the implications of a dittomancer in the Jetstone forces.

However, some kind of ability where units surviving from a batle perform mythosis and split into two identical beings just makes no sense whatsoever in a fantasy game.


I don't know if I'd say that. At least not in the sense of magic spells existing in some setting that allow for copies/clones/simulacrum to me made, usually for a temporary amount of time.

From all we know, Ansom could just be mentioning that doubling the leadership and special bonuses would mean that the forces of Jetsone would only take half the casualities they would take whitout a dittomancer, wich is already quite strong.


Then Ansom is a bit strange in the head because that doesn't fit with "duplicating surviving units" in anyway - at least not how a definition would define "duplicating" and "surviving".

But your interpretation? Make one stack fight the enemy, then pull back before you take loses. The stack doubles in size. Repeat ad nausem. Curb stomp everything and everyone with your exponential growth army.


If the dittomancer has unlimited juice. And depending on his level (is he a Jack or Wanda of Dittomancy?). And assuming ditto'd surviving units are permanent and as good as what they are copied from.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:42 am

Justyn wrote:The reason is because the difference is more than just in the name: the veil is disguising one unit or group of units as something else, while the displacement makes it appear that the units are elsewhere. The veil ends when the units involved cross a hex boundary, a Displacement evidently doesn't.
It's probably far more practical than that. Spells take juice, and juice is a resource you don't want to spend any more of then you have to. Dropping a veil on your own turn upon crossing a hex boundary, as seen when Jack and Stanley are fleeing from Jillian and the TV forces, makes a lot of practical sense. Why maintain a veil once you've crossed a hex boundary and now can not be chased? So you drop it. Not necessarily because you have to, but because there is no longer any reason to maintain it.

I'm barfing though, on other points. Apparently it's completely normal to refer to a hex the person you are conversing with is standing in as "that hex" and pointing over their shoulder. This just sucks on so many levels, as it is abnormal beyond belief. The casters were in the hex with Tram and Ossom, there was no reason at all for the pointing and asking. "In your hex?" would have been fine, as would several other possible expressions. But pointing behind the princes and saying "that hex?" simply makes no sense. Poor writing.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Infidel » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:50 am

The DM wrote:That one work for ya?


Actually, I was already convinced by another argument, all I've been doing since is just punching holes in other people's arguments if I disagree with their methods, even if I agree with their conclusions. Your argument is fine by me though--since you ask.....of course I'm assuming you're replying to me based on your post position since you did not quote. You could have been talking to someone else, I admit...

Personally, the D&D example doesn't work for me. In D&D terms it requires a multifunction spell. But it is called in canon a "Simple Displacement" Displacing the avatar happens all the time in games, particularly during a period of lag so I can see it in non-d&d terms as simple. In programming, offsetting the character avatar from it's collision points is relatively straight forward and "simple."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby crazyguy_co » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:57 am

Thydron wrote:
Not sure if any thinkagrams have being sent out of turn - maybe by Charlie using the ArkenDish. Maggie was able to cast a head-clearing spell for parson, but that was when there were archons in GK's airspace (I think), so technically their hex had been entered by unallied troops.
Wanda's shockblast was again when her hex (GK) had been entered by opposing forces (even if they were just talking) - same as the veil on Bogroll.
I suppose technically Wanda's mass uncroacking of Jetstone troops was when there were no units left alive attacking GK, but they had entered the same hex.
The decryption seemingly had to wait unit dawn & GK's turn too.


So you're changing the requirement to "entered our hex" not attacked... different terms entirely, but fair enough.

And she decrypted unaroyal units during unaroyals turn, right after the suicide attack. We know for a fact she can decrypt out of turn.

As for thinkagrams... charlie certainly (contacted parson on GK's turn, and Jillian on Faq's turn), and it can be passed off as arkendish power. And bunny calls caeser at the end of every day, though it could be argued she does it at the end of turn.

There is no rule we know of restricting spell casting to ones own turn... only restricting moving out of hex and attacking.

The archons DDR spell is out of turn. charlie went first that day, and couldn't move BECAUSE of it. Yet his archons were able to cast there DDR spell anyway.

This argument is silly, fact is we don't know. Its as silly as people saying spells can't affect another hex, simply because we haven't seen one that does. We don't know the details, so its possible. You can't shoot an argument down because we've never SEEN something... lack of proof is not a proof of lack. Some spells may be turn only, others not. Its fun to discuss possibilities, its what we do on these forums. Its rather obnoxious when people fling around "you can't do x" when we in fact know no such thing for sure. Like moving veils out of hex (the one time we saw it, it might be because the veil in question was a "combat" veil, for example, it was a change to the original veil cast. or many other reasons)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Oberon » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:12 am

AngryAngel wrote:As for me, I don't see Wanda's mount attacking at all. Three archons and the two blue dwagons, and that's it. Also, the attack effect is engulfing the nameless infantry as well as Ossomer and Tremennis.
Odd, I see 4 archons and two dwagons attacking. There are 4 lines clearly drawn from the archons, and two short lines from the blue dwagons. Sadly, the dwagons don't have their mouths open as they have for all other breath effects we've been shown.
SandroTheMaster wrote:The two female soldiers that are shown seem to be shocked, that's all.
Two female soldiers, where? Which two female soldiers seem to be shocked? I see nothing that indicates that any of the 5 gaping soldiers are not all males. Is hair style leading people to assume a female gender, maybe? Their armor breastplates all seem to be uniformly smooth, as far as they can be seen. No modifications to accommodate breasts.
Brewdude wrote:This is ERFWORLD for boop's sake. The sparkles and blinding flash might just be CAUSED by the exposure of the archon's naughty bits. I imagine that a pixilation mob, while similar, would create different effects.
No. You forget that there has been a change in venue. While hosted on the GitP site there was a PG rating enforced, and the discussion from Rich surrounding the "FUCK YOU" by Parson shows rather clearly that he was notified and had to pass approval for that strip to be posted on his site. No such restrictions now apply, and since the change in venue Parson has cursed far more casually than would have ever been allowed on the GitP site. The flash mob needs to be taken at face value: Hot chicks flashing their naughty bits with full visibility to the audience. This is why the attention of the troops is riveted, be it magic or not.
oslecamo2 wrote:Ansom may be a decent tactician, but his record is not very good when it comes to spotting traps.
To be fair to Ansom, he hasn't been at all happy about this course of action.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby cloudbreaker » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:48 am

Does that unnamed warlord remind anyone else of a certain muppet? (the one on the right)

Spoiler: show
Image

I doubt it's the correct reference, if ther even is one, but whatever. Statler is awesome.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby GobwinPie » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:52 am

raphfrk wrote:
atteSmythe wrote:duplicating surviving units


I wonder if it almost like the opposite of croakamancy. Rather than getting a unit in exchange for a dead unit, you get one for any surviving ones.

Ofc, that would be pretty overpowered. Presumably, copied units would also decay like uncroaked and be much weaker than the original.


I think decay would be a key balancing factor. The other one might be the fact that duplicating surviving units suggests refilling the ranks instead of conjuring whole new legions out of nothing (and leaving turnamancy and croakamancy in the dust for power). I'd also imagine that dittomancers are just as limited by supply of juice as other casters (not that Wanda ever seemed close to running out).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Darkside007 » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:56 am

Infidel wrote:"Jack said" can be considered a proof. But he did not say Jack said. Instead it is Starwolf said. Please note that someone else convinced me a while back, but just because I agree with his conclusion, does not mean that I agree with is logic. "I have better logic and common sense than you" is not a winning argument.


He presupposed you read the comic page that was upload a week ago within that time frame and were capable of remembering it and/or referencing it yourself. Are you here to discuss the comic, or are you here to play logic games?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Thydron » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:20 am

crazyguy_co wrote:
Thydron wrote:Not sure if any thinkagrams have being sent out of turn - maybe by Charlie using the ArkenDish. Maggie was able to cast a head-clearing spell for parson, but that was when there were archons in GK's airspace (I think), so technically their hex had been entered by unallied troops.
Wanda's shockblast was again when her hex (GK) had been entered by opposing forces (even if they were just talking) - same as the veil on Bogroll.
I suppose technically Wanda's mass uncroacking of Jetstone troops was when there were no units left alive attacking GK, but they had entered the same hex.
The decryption seemingly had to wait unit dawn & GK's turn too.

So you're changing the requirement to "entered our hex" not attacked... different terms entirely, but fair enough.

Hardly that different - if you had asked me for a word perfect definition I should have said "engagement", but the main point is your hex has to be entered by non-allied units
And she decrypted unaroyal units during unaroyals turn, right after the suicide attack. We know for a fact she can decrypt out of turn.

Right, after they'd entered her Hex and attacked her troops - supports my point
As for thinkagrams... charlie certainly (contacted parson on GK's turn, and Jillian on Faq's turn), and it can be passed off as arkendish power. And bunny calls caeser at the end of every day, though it could be argued she does it at the end of turn.
There is no rule we know of restricting spell casting to ones own turn... only restricting moving out of hex and attacking.

You mean apart from that Rob has specifically said that?
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... ns#5931853
The archons DDR spell is out of turn. charlie went first that day, and couldn't move BECAUSE of it. Yet his archons were able to cast there DDR spell anyway.

They had allied with the RCC so now shared turns with them - they just couldn't move twice in one day
This argument is silly, fact is we don't know. Its as silly as people saying spells can't affect another hex, simply because we haven't seen one that does. We don't know the details, so its possible. You can't shoot an argument down because we've never SEEN something... lack of proof is not a proof of lack. Some spells may be turn only, others not. Its fun to discuss possibilities, its what we do on these forums. Its rather obnoxious when people fling around "you can't do x" when we in fact know no such thing for sure. Like moving veils out of hex (the one time we saw it, it might be because the veil in question was a "combat" veil, for example, it was a change to the original veil cast. or many other reasons)

Right... who's being obnoxious?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Infidel » Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:29 am

Darkside007 wrote:
Infidel wrote:"Jack said" can be considered a proof. But he did not say Jack said. Instead it is Starwolf said. Please note that someone else convinced me a while back, but just because I agree with his conclusion, does not mean that I agree with is logic. "I have better logic and common sense than you" is not a winning argument.


He presupposed you read the comic page that was upload a week ago within that time frame and were capable of remembering it and/or referencing it yourself. Are you here to discuss the comic, or are you here to play logic games?


Sounds to me like you're lashing out at someone for disagreeing with you. Even if Jack's comment could be considered an element in a proof, characters in stories are wrong all the time. The truth is, Jack's comment only proves that Jack thought it was necessary, it doesn't prove that it was necessary. To do that a full analysis of the situation is required, not a bunch shallow arguments and flippant remarks. And don't presuppose to know what someone else was presupposing. We only know what a poster writes, not what is going on in their head when they write.

If you want discuss something fine, but pointing out logical fallacies is not a logic game of any kind.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Smoker » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:03 am

A good argument should be properly referenced.

I have no reference for that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby noxharrington » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:19 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Archons aren't true casters so I guess it isn't proof one way or another as to how a caster would be affected by decryption.


Anyone have a source for this? From the wiki: "A unit with magic-using ability is called a Caster."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:55 pm

noxharrington wrote:Anyone have a source for this? From the wiki: "A unit with magic-using ability is called a Caster."


The wiki isn't canon, as long as it isn't marked as canon.
Also it is explained in summer update 46:
What was an Archon, really? A flying knight-class unit with a random special from the set of: dance fighting, leadership, and limited forms of Shockmancy, Thinkamancy, Dollamancy and Foolamancy.


Some units have natural abilities that are similar to spells; but these units are not casters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby noxharrington » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:01 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:summer update 46:
What was an Archon, really? A flying knight-class unit with a random special from the set of: dance fighting, leadership, and limited forms of Shockmancy, Thinkamancy, Dollamancy and Foolamancy.


Some units have natural abilities that are similar to spells; but these units are not casters.


Is it fair to say that we don't know whether Archons are considered casters? (sincerely asking) I agree that their 'special' abilities do not necessarily make them casters, but the way they talk about using various kinds of magic seems very different to me than, say, the way Fabrication is treated.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby atteSmythe » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:43 pm

noxharrington wrote:Is it fair to say that we don't know whether Archons are considered casters? (sincerely asking) I agree that their 'special' abilities do not necessarily make them casters, but the way they talk about using various kinds of magic seems very different to me than, say, the way Fabrication is treated.

Perhaps not 'know,' but strongly suspect. The summer updates treat them somewhat differently. When describing the Goyles, they're compared to Archons, as both have 'natural casting abilities.' If they were actual casters, I'd expect that to say that both are 'natural Casters.' They're referred to separately from Casters when orders are given, etc. To use a D&D term, I consider the effects that they use to be 'spell-like abilities' - magic, but not spellcasting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 7

Postby Darkside007 » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:43 pm

Infidel wrote:
Darkside007 wrote:
Infidel wrote:"Jack said" can be considered a proof. But he did not say Jack said. Instead it is Starwolf said. Please note that someone else convinced me a while back, but just because I agree with his conclusion, does not mean that I agree with is logic. "I have better logic and common sense than you" is not a winning argument.


He presupposed you read the comic page that was upload a week ago within that time frame and were capable of remembering it and/or referencing it yourself. Are you here to discuss the comic, or are you here to play logic games?


Sounds to me like you're lashing out at someone for disagreeing with you. Even if Jack's comment could be considered an element in a proof, characters in stories are wrong all the time. The truth is, Jack's comment only proves that Jack thought it was necessary, it doesn't prove that it was necessary. To do that a full analysis of the situation is required, not a bunch shallow arguments and flippant remarks. And don't presuppose to know what someone else was presupposing. We only know what a poster writes, not what is going on in their head when they write.

If you want discuss something fine, but pointing out logical fallacies is not a logic game of any kind.


A thorough assessment is also a brief and simple one;

The Archon's response, as well as the response of several Jetstone units, to a 'Flash Mob' clearly implies that it is a well-known manuever. No other conclusion can be drawn, in fact.

Wanda's assertion that 'The enemy can see nothing else in this hex.' implies that it is A) magical and B) a complete visual block of activity within the hex.

Confirmed by Jack's assertion.

Confirmed by Jetstone's response.

Now then, you've said that you've already been convinced, and that you're just poking holes in people's arguments. Or, to rephrase, you are simply playing logic games. Snapping up on the weakest arguments and attacking them solely because they are weak, with no larger purpose or objective, is a waste of everyone's time.
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