Book 2 – Page 9

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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby mutecebu » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:01 am

I'm in with people thinking:
arrows getting stuck in hex boundary is cool
Jack isn't dead
Jack shouldn't die, if only because he has unresolved plot threads. (That, and, he's cool :))
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Smoker » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:06 am

@noxharrington again: I agree, but if there's an invisible stat like loyalty (which as many people suggested, might just be a personality trait instead of an actual stat) it stands to reason there might be other invisible stats that Erfworlders haven't considered - intelligence, dedication, will power etc...

So I guess the question with my little theory is, do personality traits (including loyalty) just have a theoretical stat representation, or do they actually count as a mechanic? I'd say since "erfworld is not a game" they would impact the mechanics..

If not, then things like Ansom solo attacking the walls of Gobwin Knob doesn't seem so crazy - if he's got the stats for it, then sure, go right ahead kiddo. But if he doesn't have the stats, or barely has them, then its up to his personal conviction (which in this case was considerable) to tip the balance.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. The stats are not.. ahem.. static. They can be tweaked. That's why Ossomer was prepared to take on Ansom: He thinks that now as a decrypted unit, Ansom doesn't have the conviction or the humanity to perform at his highest.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:08 am

Zerohour wrote:With the likely loss of all three royal heirs, we might see Slately in action, and I'm hoping he ends up being one bad[explitive] mother[censored] in battle. I'm expecting him to be an aged veteran with similar personality to his sons, but I'm hooping he'll be like King Bumi from Avatar:TLA.


I'd like that. For Jetstone to be so large and powerful Slately might have been quite the Chief Warlord in his day. And at any rate Don King makes him sound like his head is largely screwed on right. After Queen Bea it will be interesting to see what King Slately can bring to the table.

multilis wrote:but is still in pain thus slumping over on his dragon and doing little more than crucial... also harder to hit if he stays down.


Well he is doing a very good job at staying down then, since he is pretty much in the same position in the last panal - an Archon is having to lead his dwagon. It seems to me he is either unconscious or croaked.

Sonic Screwdriver wrote:If he was actually killed, I would think he'd fall off the dwagon.


I don't know about the likelihood of it in the real world, but in movies at least individuals who die/are rendered unconscious sometimes end up slumped like that (as opposed to tumbling from the saddle or falling and being dragged along by the mount).

noxharrington wrote:Thanks dude. Here's another: when one unit engages one other unit (like the bros in this page) and they're all talkin' smack, like 'well, you have won in the past, but this time I may emerge victorious,' that's nonsense, right? Or rather, storytelling? Surely any two Erf units (without surprises up their sleeves or Magentas waiting to tweeze away swords) engaging each other know ahead of time who will win. Count up the Attack, count up the Defense. It's not rocket science. Heck, it's not even physics.


That makes sense. I'm not sure if there is an element of luck like rolling dice to see if a hit is landed, or other modifiers, something like intelligence. One would imagine there must be other factors that might influence an outcome (just like in a real world duel), but yes, I could see that in Erfworld, with its game/stat like mechanics there would likely be very sold, predictable outcomes in a fight of this type based on what you are saying.

If their talk was more factual and not just taunts Oss might know something about Ansom's stats (less of a man) or thinks he does, or maybe Oss has gained a level or something since last they met. At any rate it seemed he was dominating in this fight until Wanda snuck in and interfered.

But this also gets into my question about armor and weapons. Why does it matter that Mrs. Frankenstein's Monster took away his sword? Does his sword add to his Attack? Does he NEED his sword to attack? Can an archer unit "lose" his bow? Could a non-archer use a bow (I know the issue of 'throwing rocks' has been addressed, but picking up and using a weapon is something else)? Can their strings get wet if someone Weathermances up some drizzle? Does a unit's Defense go way up if they put on chain mail?


I guess Wriggley had his pike taken away... hehe, such details could drive a games designer mad! It would make sense if a unit could use another weapon, even one they aren't familiar with (like a stabber trying to be an archer), I'd just imagine they'd take a penalty in doing so.

As to attack... Maybe when weaponless a units attack is so low they are as good as defenseless. Although Oss hadn't really lost his sword, he just couldn't block/deflect Ansom's blow at the time (since Wanda was holding it back). It does seems he didn't even try to raise his arm to block Ansom's blow (maybe Ansom was too quick) so you might have something there. Although you'd think in a fantasy like setting a unit would still be able to fight even when unarmed. Surely they must be able to kick a gloating warlord who has just disarmed them, maybe knocking him off the tower in the process :) .
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Joe22c. » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:31 am

Is anyone else surprised that Wanda (female caster) was able to use the pliers to hold back Ossomer's strike?

I mean, I would have imagined that Ossomer would have swung down anyways, and Wanda would have gone flying, with her pliers still attached to the sword.

Gravity wasn't even on her side because she was still mounted on the Dragon and therefore not significantly below Ossomer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby bathysphere » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:35 am

A. We know nothing.
B. The title of this book.
C. The decrypted love Wanda.
D. Interesting characters dead (Ansom) and alive(?) (Jack) love enemies of Wanda.
E. Unlike Ansom, Jack is emotionally deep.
F. NOOOOOOOO! Jack bites it!
G. I'm too upset to talk about this.
H. No really. Stop reading this comment. I can't talk about it right now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby CelebrenIthil » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:40 am

noxharrington wrote:
CelebrenIthil wrote:
Kaed wrote:Since the archon nearby dusted and was struck by 2 arrows, we can assume they have fairly low HP and defense, like casters. Since they are Knight-class units, they probably have a bit more though. Perhaps 8 Hits, 2 Defense. That would have made two such arrows bring madam silverhair to or below 0, thus dusted. (I suspect that decrypted probably cannot be incapacitated since they are a form of advanced uncroaked, not actually alive.)


I know this isn't discussed anymore but I just noticed that the dusted archon has been hit by 3 arrows.


It looks to me like two, but whatever. I have a theory: that when the Dittomancer quadruples the arrows, he's actually multiplying the DAMAGE DONE by 4, not the sheer number of arrows (the latter I guess would work out to a x4 chance that any given unit would be hit/take damage). But again, we should keep in mind that in SOME sense, the volley and the specific arrows sticking out of specific units could be considered illustrations of what's happening in the game code, not strictly matter interacting with matter.


There! I circled them so you can easily spot them:
Image

I agree with you tough, the dittomancer might be able to double the damage, not -just- the number of arrows.

Also, maybe I'm mindsetted as a Dungeon & Dragon player, but I don't believe Erfworld works like, say, Starcraft, in the way an encouter of A type of unit with YXZ against B type of unit with YXZ+1 stats will always have the same outcome.
No need to roll dice or anything, but about the fact that past the hard, cold stat numbers, there is place for chance/ innovation. A unit can miss, or get distracted, or score a "critical hit", and whatnot. So the clash between a Marbit piker vs a Gobwin stabber (random example) won't always unfold the same way even if the stats of both parties don't change.

Same with arrows not always dealing the same damage- and maybe, like in shooter games, there is a difference in damage output if it's an headshot vs a bodyshot (or even limbshots). Hence good old Manpower the Temporary croaked by a single arrow in the eye...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby TheMutant » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:59 am

Man, guys, cease with the funeral dirges! This is Jack, remember? JACK. You know, the guy who's almost certainly going to be involved in further Jillian drama? More importantly, the guy who pulled off an incredibly complex illusion on the fly that convinced a high-level warlord like Jillian that she'd fought and croaked a dwagon (just as a starter)? I hold to my belief that he's at worst incapacitated and more likely just faking it until upcoming pages disprove me.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Azure Sepulchre » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:12 am

TheMutant wrote:Man, guys, cease with the funeral dirges! This is Jack, remember? JACK. You know, the guy who's almost certainly going to be involved in further Jillian drama? More importantly, the guy who pulled off an incredibly complex illusion on the fly that convinced a high-level warlord like Jillian that she'd fought and croaked a dwagon (just as a starter)? I hold to my belief that he's at worst incapacitated and more likely just faking it until upcoming pages disprove me.


Full agreement. Jack won't die, if only in the name of the plot. Jack's 'incapacitation' brings up another question for me, though.

Hasn't Wanda decrypted ALL units that attacked GK, including the Elves (or, most imposrantly, the Altruist or Lofty Elves, who can both cast Healomancy)? In that case, Jack will be up and about again before the end of the turn. That said, I haven't read or seen mention of the Elves since the BfGK, which implies they either escaped before the eruption (unlikely) or they can no longer cast Healomancy (also unlikely, methinks), both of which lead on to a multitude of other questions.

...I'm quite curious about all this now. Has anyone seen anything to do with the Elves at the BoGK in any of the Summer Updates, or have they simply vanished out of existence?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Konrad » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:14 am

Okay, rampant speculation ahead!

Reading this comic reminded me of an idea I had a while ago thinking about the Decrypted. It seems like such a game breaking power that it seems like it should have hidden drawbacks. One idea I had was that it might resurrect units exactly as they were when they died, but incapable of gaining more levels.

Until this comic there hasn't been anything to support that, and the fact that uncroaked can level is pretty strongly against it, but now Ossomer has overpowered Ansom in combat when it sounds like it would have been the other way around before Ansom's decryption. We don't have any way to gauge how long it would take a Royal Chief Warlord to level, but the way I read the Summer Updates Ansom has been in almost constant combat since TBFGK. If he and Ossomer gain levels at about the same rate, it seems unlikely that Ossomer would actually overtake him.

If the Decrypted don't level or level more slowly than normal units that gives the RCC or any other powerful opponent a crack in the power of the AoD. A big part of Parson's defensive strategy at GK was that combat bonuses can do more than just adding units. A small group of powerful units could take a page out of Parson's book and stack up bonuses until they could selectively wear down the highest Warlord bonuses of the AoD using strike and fade attacks like the Dwagon raids on the siege engines in Book 1.

Of course, this requires someone who A) knows about the apparently unconventional strike and fade tactic B) has enough powerful and high move units to pull it off and C) is willing to learn from Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby emo samurai » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:18 am

Doesn't the mount croak when its rider croaks? I remember that happening when Jillian chopped one of the undead warlords over the lake without touching the dwagon he was riding. Same thing when Ansom re-croaked Lord Manpower without touching his mount.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Sixty » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:26 am

While I'm still up in the air about Jack's fate, it WOULD be something that could get Parson back in the game in a more serious capacity due to it probably being his strategy they used (even if he wasn't the one that suggested using it at this time) and him feeling like his refusal to take an active role ended up with Jack croaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Fafnir13 » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:13 am

Nice to see things mostly went according to plan this time. Little worried for Jack, but I'm hoping its just an incapacitation.

Side note: Will dwagons be getting their necks back? They look a tad silly these days. Well, sillier I should say.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby sheepfly » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:20 am

Konrad wrote:Until this comic there hasn't been anything to support that, and the fact that uncroaked can level is pretty strongly against it, but now Ossomer has overpowered Ansom in combat when it sounds like it would have been the other way around before Ansom's decryption. We don't have any way to gauge how long it would take a Royal Chief Warlord to level, but the way I read the Summer Updates Ansom has been in almost constant combat since TBFGK. If he and Ossomer gain levels at about the same rate, it seems unlikely that Ossomer would actually overtake him.


Actually, if the Dittomancer was affecting the princes' bonuses, Ossomer could quite easily be on equal or better footing with Ansom despite having a lower level and no 'pliers/decrypted bonus. Unfortunately we haven't seen any 'spell effect' originating from the Dittomancer and there's been no indication of the range limit of his abilities (could be the whole hex), but it's a fair bet that he's having an impact beyond the quadrupling of arrows.

Also, we don't know how the balance of forces affects experience gain. It could be that attacking weak defenses with overwhelming forces provides little experience to the commanding warlord. If so, Ansom could get very little personal benefit from the conquest of Unaroyal, while Ossomer might get plenty of experience from defending Jetstone's borders and pressing a risky attack against Haggar with thinly spread, minimal forces.

Plus, the fight would be lame if Ansom could send Ossomer sprawling with just a flick of his high-leveled wrist.
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:09 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I'm guessing the plan, unless something happens, is a croak and decrypt of Oss. I wonder if Ansom would have a problem with that. Like with any "noble" inclinations he might have left, the whole "kidnap an enemy leader, kill them while helpless, then bring them back to get information" seems somewhat questionable, ethically. But then I'm not an adherent of toolism, so maybe Ansom would think it was just peachy.


I had a post somewhere earlier in this thread in which I explain why I expect that to not be a problem for Ansom. Murder is not murder when you can bring the croaked back at next to no cost, and with what you see as illusions dispelled from their mind.

So, a new approach. Would Ansom prefer torturing his brother for information? Definitely no. Not as good as decrypting for info-gathering, and unlike decryption Ansom would have moral qualms about that. So get ready Ossomer, this won't hurt a bit.

mblackadder wrote:I told you I'm calling it last strip. It will be an ongoing joke by the writer and the artist that "Red" is going to be in every single battle, visible but indistinct and at the end it will be revealed it is either in fact not Red at all but a very effeminately dressed man or in fact Red.


When will you stop being right?

Spot wrote:Well, depending upon one's angle of view, *most* people in the regular world are just-as-much "pod people" as Ansom is. {snip}

Want to know what it'd be like to meet a "pod person" like Ansom in real life? Simply take a trip down to the mall and look around, (or take a look in the mirror).


Well done, you have earned a spot on the Devil's Advocacy Team. Glad that more people are beginning to see the light- or darkness as the case may be.

noxharrington wrote:I completely disagree. The only decrypted we've spent any time with so far is Ansom and the Archons. The Archons we didn't know before really, and Ansom has always been, as has been pointed out, a pod person. To see a unique and free-thinking person like Jack decrypted could go either way - maybe he loses what makes him unique, in which case it adds a very poignant edge to Gobwin Knob's strategy

{snip}

I think, because it has been discussed so much on the boards, that we have an exaggerated view of how controversial the question of whether decrypted casters can cast is IN ERFWORLD. I don't see anyone wondering about that, and it really seems to me that decrypted should be able to cast. I'd be very surprised if it turned out they couldn't. Certainly I don't think the MK is waiting around to see what happens when a caster is decrypted, and I don't think anyone in GK has their fingers crossed anticipating that first croaked caster to experiment on.


And another for the DAT! Yay!

As for the decryption etc issue (discussed a lot because somewhat important imo), we don't know what happens to decrypted casters, either way. To the extent that the MK knows about Wanda, they either assumed strong thinkamancy (unlikely now) or croakamancy. Since Sizemore knows their worries are about naughtymancy brought in the Life Axis, strong and new croakamancy is their theory. How much it looks like old croakamancy in effects is an open question, and the caster decryption experiment is a dangerous one to perform. Casters are valuable, so you wouldn't sacrifice one. We don't know of any captured/decrypted casters.

Maybe everyone in Erfworld knows the answer to this issue already, true. It's an important question, because if you can decrypt casters and they can still cast, what's to stop you from croak-and-decrypt casters too?

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:My guess is that GK already knows whether decrypted casters can cast, and it's just we in the audience who don't know yet.

Jack's croaking would be an interesting plot development even, or especially, if they can't cast. Parson would still want him decrypted to serve as an adviser, and since he would have no upkeep, there would be no good reason for Wanda to deny the request. Then Jack would have an existential crisis, while Parson would for the first time develop a relationship with a decrypted unit. Meanwhile, others would be puzzling over Parson valuing a caster who can't cast, so it would subtly be a subversive political act.


... and continuing on that point, no, I don't expect that speculation I threw about Jack being decrypted as happening. I throw it as a safeguard against it happening really. But the quoted theory- I like.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:58 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I'm guessing the plan, unless something happens, is a croak and decrypt of Oss. I wonder if Ansom would have a problem with that. Like with any "noble" inclinations he might have left, the whole "kidnap an enemy leader, kill them while helpless, then bring them back to get information" seems somewhat questionable, ethically. But then I'm not an adherent of toolism, so maybe Ansom would think it was just peachy.


I had a post somewhere earlier in this thread in which I explain why I expect that to not be a problem for Ansom. Murder is not murder when you can bring the croaked back at next to no cost, and with what you see as illusions dispelled from their mind.

So, a new approach. Would Ansom prefer torturing his brother for information? Definitely no. Not as good as decrypting for info-gathering, and unlike decryption Ansom would have moral qualms about that. So get ready Ossomer, this won't hurt a bit.


From a logical point of view it's better for Ansom to croak and decrypt Ossomer. But could he strike down his own brother in cold blood? Look in the face he has known for years and take his life? If there is still something human inside Ansom, he should be at east reluctant and consider other possibilities, like thinkamancy. Wanda is pretty good at it.


If decrypted caster still can cast, MK is threatened, for the first time in it's existence. GK could try to lure some casters into allied cities and croak them there. Then send them back to MK and wait for Wanda. Therethey can croak some more casters, decrypt them, croak more casters with the additional forces, and so on. If they first croak the battle casters like Shockamancers and Hippiemancers in a surprise attack, they can easily take the rest.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:16 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:From a logical point of view it's better for Ansom to croak and decrypt Ossomer. But could he strike down his own brother in cold blood?


We shall have to see. Whatever happens though, whether Ansom will take the thinkamancy route or the quick surgery route, Ansom's humanity is not in question.

If decrypted caster still can cast, MK is threatened, for the first time in it's existence.


Maybe the "first time" thing is exagerated, but I agree with the spirit. That's what I'm getting at when I presumed that MK (and everyone else) would be interested in settling the caster decryption question.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby GreyjoyBastard » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:21 am

Okay. Allow me to simply say: I registered to provide support for Ansom on this update.

(I never thought I'd support him ever, I'm a Wanda fan, but Decryption does strange things.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:22 am

GreyjoyBastard wrote:Okay. Allow me to simply say: I registered to provide support for Ansom on this update.


?

I am intrigued by this statement and require clarification.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby theseus2x » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:07 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:My guess is that GK already knows whether decrypted casters can cast, and it's just we in the audience who don't know yet.


I must concur here. Erfworld retook at least nine cities, and probably several more. Can't we suspect that there was at least one caster taken in all of that?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:14 am

theseus2x wrote:I must concur here. Erfworld retook at least nine cities, and probably several more. Can't we suspect that there was at least one caster taken in all of that?


We can, but why should we? Present those casters, I say. Those were Unaroyal cities, and seeing how casters are kept mostly for capital defense, and how Unaroyal's capital was taken as an empty shell ... no, it's not a given that the Toolists got new casters.
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