Book 2 – Page 9

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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby theseus2x » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:31 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
theseus2x wrote:I must concur here. Erfworld retook at least nine cities, and probably several more. Can't we suspect that there was at least one caster taken in all of that?


We can, but why should we? Present those casters, I say. Those were Unaroyal cities, and seeing how casters are kept mostly for capital defense, and how Unaroyal's capital was taken as an empty shell ... no, it's not a given that the Toolists got new casters.


Fair enough. Be interesting to see regardless.

_____________________________________________________

Regarding Trammenis : Look at Panel 3 where he says "Oh, here we go..." I take that to mean he's found a way out of the gum, and is now going to take a shot at either getting O. back, or at least going after Jack.

Next, look at the last panel. He doesn't appear, even though O. and everyone else does. (Even Scarlett! :mrgreen: ) This makes me think that GK hasn't snatched him. I speculate the reason he's off panel is that he's looking to swoop in and make his play for the GK forces. (Didn't the summer updates indicate he's got a flying mount?)

Oh - also - if Wanda wanted to snatch T. as well as O., why did she hit T. with the bubblegum? Doesn't it seem more likely she'd use the gum on T. to keep him busy while she and Ansom snatched O.?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Sieggy » Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:15 pm

theseus2x wrote:
_____________________________________________________

Regarding Trammenis : Look at Panel 3 where he says "Oh, here we go..." I take that to mean he's found a way out of the gum, and is now going to take a shot at either getting O. back, or at least going after Jack.

Next, look at the last panel. He doesn't appear, even though O. and everyone else does. (Even Scarlett! :mrgreen: ) This makes me think that GK hasn't snatched him. I speculate the reason he's off panel is that he's looking to swoop in and make his play for the GK forces. (Didn't the summer updates indicate he's got a flying mount?)

Oh - also - if Wanda wanted to snatch T. as well as O., why did she hit T. with the bubblegum? Doesn't it seem more likely she'd use the gum on T. to keep him busy while she and Ansom snatched O.?


Actually, I would suspect that Tramenniss's statement was more the reflexive response to watching Ansom and Ossomer going at it again . . . as I suspect he has seen over and over (sibling rivalry must have a whole new meaning in Erfworld).

We've seen no Jetstone flyers thus far other than the Unipegatard; it would have been fairly obvious if it was lurking about, and if airborne, would have taken damage from the overhead volley. I think Wanda just kind of dismissed him as a lightweight, not worthy of capture (think of it as a carryover from Stanley's attitude). Though why she doesn't detail an Archon to toast him seems a bit of an oversight . . . must be plotamancy.

'Gank', BTW, is also a slang term used by fencers (Renn fencers, mostly, though strip fencers may use the term as well) to indicate a really serious point hit, the kind that leaves nasty quarter sized bruises. I got ganked once on the cartilage where the ribs meet the breastbone, and it hurt to breathe for a month . . .
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Carlan » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:30 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
theseus2x wrote:I must concur here. Erfworld retook at least nine cities, and probably several more. Can't we suspect that there was at least one caster taken in all of that?


We can, but why should we? Present those casters, I say. Those were Unaroyal cities, and seeing how casters are kept mostly for capital defense, and how Unaroyal's capital was taken as an empty shell ... no, it's not a given that the Toolists got new casters.


There were how decrypted archons? They're certainly caster-like. They've been using spell-like abilities. I think the only argument left in the Can Decrypted Casters Cast debate is juice. If decrypted units who use juice still have juice, they'll probably be able to cast.

That was somewhat repetitive of me, and my brain hurts now. My apologies to anyone suffering the same after reading that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby theseus2x » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:38 pm

Sieggy wrote:Actually, I would suspect that Tramenniss's statement was more the reflexive response to watching Ansom and Ossomer going at it again . . . as I suspect he has seen over and over (sibling rivalry must have a whole new meaning in Erfworld).


Certainly possible. For me, it was more pointing out possible reasons why T. wasn't captured. I find his absence after that panel to be quite suspicious. At the very least, he'd be providing commentary... unless he was about to do something sneaky.

Sieggy wrote:We've seen no Jetstone flyers thus far other than the Unipegatard; it would have been fairly obvious if it was lurking about, and if airborne, would have taken damage from the overhead volley. I think Wanda just kind of dismissed him as a lightweight, not worthy of capture (think of it as a carryover from Stanley's attitude). Though why she doesn't detail an Archon to toast him seems a bit of an oversight . . . must be plotamancy.


True. Wanda is quite arrogant in this regard, nearly as bad as Stanley in that regard. Maybe she discounts T. because O. is bigger. Maybe because O. is Chief Warlord. Maybe something else. Regardless, she had a decent shot at capturing / croaking him, plotomancy or no. Bet : It will come back to haunt her. I still think T. is going to pull something here and now, maybe involving Jack.

Speculation : I also still think that the bubblegum would actually make it hard to capture a unit. Nets and gum don't mix. And if the gum WAS good for capturing, she would have zapped O. as well.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby the_tick_rules » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:57 pm

Perhaps the gum helped stick him to the ground? Be hard to scoop him up if that happened. Plus Ossomer's the chief and probably worth more as he provides more bonuses to the Jetstone forces they may now be deprived of, and maybe some super chief wralord only intel. They decrypted several warlords, KC for instance, but we dunno if they managed to get their hands on any casters. It probably would have been metioned as it would be a huge score but things have surprised us before.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby multilis » Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:12 pm

They are barely getting out alive as is, not sure they could if they took out T, not sure a single archon could take him out. A single royal heir probably has hit points similar to a healthy dragon, and they may only have one round before his buddies recover from stun.

Plot and situation wise I expect they will have to sacrifice more than an archon to even get out even now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Glenn » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:19 pm

Capturing one of Jetstone's Warlords is very much of an afterthought for Wanda. I think Ansom's original plan was to ignore Ossimer and the army he had in the hex and strike directly at the capital. The only reason Wanda's taken the risk of entering the hex to capture Ossimer is because Parson suggested they needed more intelligence, and she thought capturing the Chief Warlord was the best way to get it. I think Wanda believes that if they can take the capital, then the whole army in this hex, including Tramennis, becomes utterly irrelevant. Given that, why should Wanda risk further losses by spending even a minute trying to capture or croak Tramennis?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby John Thacker » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:29 pm

mblackadder wrote:
gameboy1234 wrote:
Also, no close-ups of "Red". Poo. I think I'll name her Sonja though.

I told you I'm calling it last strip. It will be an ongoing joke by the writer and the artist that "Red" is going to be in every single battle, visible but indistinct and at the end it will be revealed it is either in fact not Red at all but a very effeminately dressed man or in fact Red.


The logical possibility for the first option would be for it to be K.C. Scarlet was a Unaroyal, K.C. was Unaroyal, so resemblance and similar hair color is a possibility. K.C. was a former Chief Warlord, so he makes sense as someone to take along on a small strike force.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby oslecamo2 » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:41 pm

theseus2x wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:I must concur here. Erfworld retook at least nine cities, and probably several more. Can't we suspect that there was at least one caster taken in all of that?

Casters are aparently the most valuable resource one can have in Erfworld. Nobody leaves them in random half defended cities.

Like the other queen showed, if you want to capture an enemy caster, you'll need to pry it from their leader's dead cold fingers, and even then they may make them run away trough the magic portal rather than let them be captured, like queen Bea did.

Also, Jack is probably bleeding to death. Not yet dead, but if he doesn't receive some healing he's toast.

EDIT:Anyway, the main question now is, how fat is Ossomer's leadership bonus again? Because it's now going to work for GK, so the tables are kinda turned. The other side lost their chief warlord, GK lost an archon and some wounds. Not looking pretty for Jetsone
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby suryasm » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:30 pm

Some... OK, a LOT of people have said that GK has had it too easy. But here's the thing: they caught the enemy completely flat-footed, using completely unexpected hit-and-run tactics. Total surprise was achieved. Every infantry capable of reinforcing Ossomer was heading the other way when the veil dropped, and getting infantry turned around is no joke. On this score comes something else I've noticed: tactics within a hex matter a LOT. In some ways, once a fight starts, Erfworld seems to operate on realtime.
Remember when Jillian threw off Wanda's spell and attacked the wounded dwagons? Parson calculated Jillian's chance of victory (until Ansom showed up) at 61%. In fact, Parson expected that taking Jillian out would put the odds back in their favor. Thus, it is clear that once combat is joined, a lot of die-rolling is involved. Sure, if two sides in a hex go head-to-head with no tactical subtlety, the stronger unit will invariably win. But once you start using feint, maneuver, and targeted assaults, all those neat modifiers start looking fuzzy.

Example of a simple play-by-numbers where the stacked modifiers decided everything: the huge Wanda vs. Ansom dance-fight in Book 1. An open-field battle between large hordes.

Example where tactics overcame modifiers: right the f*** now.

As for Ossomer's leadership bonus, we can easily put it at a +10 or +9. Remember that Ansom is considered a match for Ossomer, and he is a Level 10 Warlord. A warlord gives a plus for every level. This was indicated in that text update on the first city GK retook, where the various modifiers in Ansom's stack is detailed.

As an aside, this makes Parson a Level 2 warlord when he first came. Wonder what level he is now? Did he level up at all for BfGK? It's possible he didn't, as he technically withdrew when he escaped to MK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Casander » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:52 pm

Is Jack incapacitated by the wound, or from the backlash from the spell breaking? We have seen before a number of negative consequences for the caster when their spell is unexpectedly broken.

I thought it is interesting how the "artifact bonus" described in the mechanics takes effect in the comic. Anson has bonuses from the presence of his mistress and her pliers that enable him to defeat Oss, as shown by her helping with the disarm. We have seen Anson use the pliers to yank an uncroaked warlord off of Jillian. The artifacts don't provide the bonus by standing around and looking shiny!

Regarding an earlier discussion of croakmancers being excessively powerful, no. The uncroaked are only effective in the presence of a croakmancer, and Wanda is a particularly powerful one now. Previously, uncroaked weren't all that effective because they didn't LAST very long, so if you just left a side alone that had uncroaked, their army would literally fall apart. By contrast, dollamancers and dirtmancers and others can make Gumps and Golems which ARE quite effective, even away from their respective mancers. As GK becomes an empire, the problems of garrisoning their holdings effectively may become more of an issue. They do have a VERY effective fast response force, so if garrisons can just hold long enough, and are tough enough that slow moving siege is required to deal with them, then they can provide enough of a warning for reinforcements to arrive.

I am VERY doubtful that decrypted units can level. And that is a reason to seek allies rather than just killing and decrypting everything.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Watsit Hoohow » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:27 pm

I am VERY doubtful that decrypted units can level.


Why?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Infidel » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:42 pm

HailGreen28 wrote:OK. Three questions:

1. Does Wanda's force still have enough move to kill/decrypt Ossomer and still take the capital?

2. Is Wanda's force strong enough to take AND HOLD THE CAPITAL FOR AT LEAST ONE TURN?

3. IS JACK STILL ALIVE? :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

That is all.


No. No. No. You're supposed to say. "Tune in next week. Same erf time. Same erf channel." not "That is all"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Kender Wizard » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:50 pm

Hey everyone. I was just musing over the comic and a thought came to me. Gobwin knob may be able to sack the magic kingdom. You see, the main problem with attacking the magic kingdom would be that they don't have enough units that can safely go through the portal. It occurred to me then that we don't have a clear definition of what is and is not considered a caster. Parson made it through (for unknown reasons) so it is possible that other unit types with casting abilities could enter the magic kingdom through the portals. Decrypted archons, for example. The archons would have the additional benefits of being attack-oriented units, at least some of whom can see through foolamancy and detect active spells.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0071.html
Once the archons killed most of the casters, wanda could enter and decrypt the lot of them. This scheme of course depends on decrypted casters keeping their casting abilities (fairly likely, in my opinion) and decrypted archons being able to pass through the portals (complete unknown, but not out of the question). There is of course the possibility that the magic kingdom could throw down such an assault, but if parson prepared the assault, it could work. Prolly not going to happen, but interesting nonetheless.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Ytaker » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:25 pm

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F140.jpg

Eight casters, with wands, awaiting an attack. They thought of that. Charlie might be able to attack the magic kingdom with 600, but not Wanda with just 27
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Reuven » Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:52 pm

Allight, I'm very new here but no one seems to have noticed the obvious.

Jack is perfectly fine.

What? You say not possible, look at him taking arrows?

Yes. That's exactly what the foolamencer wants you to see. Jack's fine. He's probably off tot he side of the hex, perhaps even has retreated to the other hex. We're seeing the illusion of him being injured.

He did it with stanley as they ran for FAQ, I'm pretty sure he's doing it here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Darkmantle » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:17 pm

It would be unwise to kill Tramennis. If they go and take the capital and decrypt Slately then Tramennis is the sole remaining heir of Jetstone(assuming Ossomer is decrypted). If they killed him in this attack then the entire army would disband when they destroy Jetsone. Instead he becomes a barbarian and needs to provide upkeep to his entire army, just like poor Jillian did. So they have longer to pick him off later.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:37 pm

John Thacker wrote:
The logical possibility for the first option would be for it to be K.C. Scarlet was a Unaroyal, K.C. was Unaroyal, so resemblance and similar hair color is a possibility. K.C. was a former Chief Warlord, so he makes sense as someone to take along on a small strike force.


K.C. might have been Scarlet's successor.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Nefesthientu » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:45 pm

Ytaker wrote:
Fug wrote:I think this went very badly for Gobwin Nob because they removed a stupid commander (Ossomer) who will be replaced by a smarter commander (Tremennis)


Tremennis was capable of warning Ossomer about danger, and Ossomer didn't seem to disrespect his opinion. The main issue is that the enemy's leadership bonus may be reduced. It may bring their normal troops within grasp of an artifact+rock out+ decrypted bonus defeating their dittomancer bonus. Unless Tramennis was stronger than Ossomer. If Ossomer was just warlord because he was good looking and tall, then you'd be right.


Absolutely, because if Parson's interactions with Erfworld have taught us anything, it's that leadership is all about bonuses, and has nothing to do with your ability to accurately assess situations or come up with intelligent plans.

Fug's right. Tremennis wasn't introduced and shown to be smarter than Ossomer just for the writer's health. This will be important later.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 9

Postby Kender Wizard » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:01 pm

Ytaker wrote - Eight casters, with wands, awaiting an attack. They thought of that. Charlie might be able to attack the magic kingdom with 600, but not Wanda with just 27


That may be true. It was also mentioned that the portal to Gobwin Knob inside the magic kingdom is now guarded. That is well and good, but there may be a way around portal guards always ready to attack any interlopers. First off, there are now two portals that GK has access to - the portal in GK and the portal in what was formerly the capital of Uniroyal. They may not have thought to guard both portals. Secondly, its not stated, but it looks to me like it took more than a few seconds, maybe a minute or two, for that many casters to gather in response to Parson and the trimancer entity entering the magic kingdom. For instance, there was apparently time for someone to run a message to Janis and then to bring her back. That, and I somehow doubt all of those casters just happened to be in that area all at the same time. It's possible, but I would think it unlikely. Lastly, as for the feasibility of an attack, we don't know how many casters are in the magic kingdom. It sounds to be at least 100 though. Given that, yes its unlikely that an attack would work, but it is likely that a capture foray like the one just attempted in-comic would be successful in netting 10-12 casters.... Not sure whether that would be worth enraging the magic kingdom, but it might be. :?
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