Book 2 - Text Updates 002

[GobwinPie]

Hark back to a certain barbarian Queen-in-waiting and her eking out the balance of her upkeep with all-natural foods provided by hunting, but still needing to meet minimal payments. Upkeep seems to be something more than just provisions and gear, but something that's necessary to keep the unit "in play" and alive.

It seems that one can reduce one's upkeep cost by getting food through other means, so you're right about food only being part of upkeep, but if a unit has zero upkeep, wouldn't that suggest that food is no longer required?

Probably doesn't mean that decrypted units can't eat since Parson supplements his rations with various snacks, but since decrypted upkeep isn't reduced to just the cost of food but is reduced to less than that, it seems that food wouldn't be necessary.

----

I'm going to jump on the other side of the "Janis is a villain" speculation. I don't think her plans are probably all that sinister or malign, though they are probably very revolutionary and maybe even scary to some ErfWorlders. Trying to upend an order that leads to nothing but endless, senseless war doesn't seem all the villainous to me as long as you don't use villainous methods.

I think that, just like most good hippies, she's hoping for a revolution.

[GobwinPie]

Actual Reaction to the text :

I must assume that something is going to happen to Ansom.

Or Wanda. Notice that it's Wanda and "Red" bringing up the rear in that last panel? I don't think anything will happen, but I did get a funny feeling seeing that Wanda seemed to be actively guarding the rest of the stack. Maybe she'll get attacked and Ansom will have to intercede, but still...

Oh, that's a great twist. What one move by Jetstone could turn this whole battle around? Capturing control of the decrypted, either by breaking and turning Wanda or by holding her hostage. It would be a perfect test to see where Ansom's Duty lies. If GK faced the combined RCC2 and decrypted armies with only their dwagons and post-BfGK popped units, then it would take someone like Parson to pull them out of such a hopeless situation.

Also, it would set up for a rift between Stanley/Parson and Wanda/Ansom if Stanley was shown that his army is even less under his control than he fears. I guess we'll have to wait and see what sort of terrible twist of Fate Rob & Jamie have in store for us.

[Watsit Hoohow]

I'm going to jump on the other side of the "Janis is a villain" speculation. I don't think her plans are probably all that sinister or malign, though they are probably very revolutionary and maybe even scary to some ErfWorlders. Trying to upend an order that leads to nothing but endless, senseless war doesn't seem all the villainous to me as long as you don't use villainous methods.

Except given that the laws governing Erfworld are actually built on war to begin with (the whole "no civilians" is one of the first things that come to mind), it's not clear if eternal peace works to begin with. "So... what now?" War is technically senseless, but in Erfworld, peace seems to be senseless also.

If peace is not sustainable in Erfworld, then one really does have to wonder what Janis is up to.

[Dr Pepper]

Huh. Janis Joplin as a hopeless idealist driven to extreme measures is the sort of thing i'd expect. Janis Joplin as the big villain, that's different.

As for Peace on Erf, it's not war that has to break, it's the popping list. Perhaps it could stop producing military units and produce artisans instead.

[Watsit Hoohow]

Having read it again, I wonder what else Janis got Predictamancy on?

[GobwinPie]

Rats - the illustration left out the statue of the naked Archon...

I just had a moment of Fridge Logic: How do you tell a naked statue of an Archon is of an Archon and not just any other woman? I mean, naked statutes of Angels are not uncommon for fountains, and I'm pretty sure that's where the idea for the ErfWorld analogue comes from, but they don't have wings or anything to tell, do they?

[DevilDan]

Rats - the illustration left out the statue of the naked Archon...

I just had a moment of Fridge Logic: How do you tell a naked statue of an Archon is of an Archon and not just any other woman? I mean, naked statutes of Angels are not uncommon for fountains, and I'm pretty sure that's where the idea for the ErfWorld analogue comes from, but they don't have wings or anything to tell, do they?

Okay, I admit that I had the same thought.

[raphfrk]

It is getting accurate (close to the actual value) infomation that really defines science. For example "The people are in the dark and guessing, and it's kind of hard to build an XP table by actually finding 10 new level 1 Marbits to croak, discovering that you level, then discovering through experimentation that you need to croak 50 to level again. " http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... ost6012585

With enough accuracy, he might even introduce power leveling to Erf. Would one level 8 be able to power level lots of level 1's by stacking with them. Since strength is probably linear with level, but exp is exponential, it might be more time efficient to level lots of level 1s to level 2 than to level 1 level 8 to level 9.

Also, I think that systematic controlled experiments are important for science, but science is about recognising that theories must be checked against experiment.

Physics cannot be derived by logic alone (which is what the people in the MK seem to be doing). It also increases the chances that the MK magic tables aren't correct. OTOH, casters might be born with knowledge of the magic tables.

[Infidel]

Scientific facts. Those are just notes about what the archons know. They're not scientific facts.

Sigh. The point was that he is is taking notes. You're argument was that he was NOT taking notes. It is not a valid argument that since he took notes in the eyebook during a meeting that he is NOT using the eyebook to take notes elsewhere. You do realize that the klogs are written in the eyebook right? He's recording everything he can and evaluating everything.

Of course the scientific method is more than just tests.

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

Scientific method. Parson goes about defining questions, gathering information and resources. Then he forms a hypothesis. Then he experiments and collects data. Then he analyzes the data. Then he interprets the data and draws conclusions from it. He publishes the results to his underlings, obviously not to the competition. We are about to see some re-tests of all those experiments pretty soon.

[Infidel]

Minor nitpick here; in "most games" from the fantasy turn based style (as opposed to RTS), resources are infinite. Meaning, if you can hold the crystal mine +2, it will produce crystals for you even on turn 1 million. For example, think of the Heroes of Might and Magic series and clones, or Disciples, and I think Age of Wonders too.

I've personally played a lot of strategy games, and I've yet to play a single one with unlimited resources. Even in Civ resources eventually get mined out if not phased out due to tech. There may be some game out there somewhere with infinite resources, but that hardly qualifies as "most". Those few games you named are obviously among the ones that I've not bothered with. To say most games, to me that person has to have played ALL the games to make such a call, and I don't see myself playing a bunch of TBS games without ever seeing an unlimited resources game, as supporting such an argument.

[Ytaker]

Sigh. The point was that he is is taking notes. You're argument was that he was NOT taking notes. It is not a valid argument that since he took notes in the eyebook during a meeting that he is NOT using the eyebook to take notes elsewhere. You do realize that the klogs are written in the eyebook right? He's recording everything he can and evaluating everything.

I know that. However, science is about recording accurate results. That's the point. We haven't seen any sign he cares about that.

Of course the scientific method is more than just tests.

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

Scientific method. Parson goes about defining questions, gathering information and resources. Then he forms a hypothesis. Then he experiments and collects data. Then he analyzes the data. Then he interprets the data and draws conclusions from it. He publishes the results to his underlings, obviously not to the competition. We are about to see some re-tests of all those experiments pretty soon.

1. Can Parson ride a dwagon. Not a scientific question. What would be scientific would be, what is the maximum that a dwagon could carry in pounds. What is the maximum a dwagon could carry could have revolutionary impacts. Perhaps a heavy could ride if they dumped some of their armour. Perhaps an unplated dwagon can carry more? Perhaps the big red could carry him?

2. Observation, no. Didn't do. Didn't weigh himself, did see the rough weight of some riders. As such, results not accurate. Had no evidence as to what would happen.

3. No hypothesis. "Let's see what happens if I do this.

4. Did that.

5. Did he analyse it? Not really. He used no tools to refine his understanding of what happened.

6. No data to make new hypothesis from. He doesn't know why the dwagon couldn't take his weight.

7. He did that.

8. Not possible, others don't have his weight. Didn't retest himself.

It's the difference between science and trial and error. Science tells you that if you take a drug, there's x percent chance you'll survive, and if you don't take it, there's y chance you'll survive. If x is bigger than y, hurrah. Trial and error tells you that when you did it that time, you got the result you wanted. Science needs maths. His bracelet is more scientific, but through magic.

Also, to be useful, science has to account for the facts of the situation you're trying to solve. In the flash mob case, he didn't test it against a dittomancer. It will require his intuition to adapt the solution, based on his knowledge of battles, and his reason and ideas, which isn't that scientific.

[Roketter]

About the "Decrypted aint worst than other units" i'd say decrypted are just as bad as their master. So if the decrypted army followed, let's say, Sizemore, i think they'd all be decent folk and actually consider decryption an improvement for some people (like stanley!).

But if they are ruled by Wanda the lady of pain... well... draw conclussions.



Also, on Janis.
Peace is already posible Erfworld. Theoritically, kingdoms can ally with each other for as long as they want, and if a suficiently large mass of kingdoms with touching borders allied, they wouldn't know war for as long as the alliance lasted, and they could get into stacks to visit their neighbours and be a happy family. Also... if all kingdoms allied, there could even be a world peace until someone broke the treaty.


So a "War to break the world" sounds a bit extreme when war is caused by Erfworlds inhabitants and not by some meteorite or natural catastrophe waiting to destroy them. The complete imposibility of going into war would probably require some sort of scheme turning everyone into pod people or, changing world rules so that violence is imposible, etc. Wathever the ouctome, the result would be fundamentally different and utterly alien... don't think the erfworlders want that for real.

[Infidel]

1. Can Parson ride a dwagon. Not a scientific question. What would be scientific would be, what is the maximum that a dwagon could carry in pounds.

Err. No. Yes, it's a scientific question. Nowhere in the definition of science does it limit questions in the way you propose All your arguments against it are strawman arguments. Again, science is a method. It does not define the questions only the method. True false questions are still scientific questions and a scientific investigation is NOT required to discover the full story. Parson does not have to determine the maximum weight a dragon can carry.

Science takes place in stages. One scientist is not required to prove everything.

If someone proposes that water lilies spontaneously turn into swans via the spontaneous generation. Then a scientist can study water lilies and prove that swans do not spontaneously generate into swans. The question of where swans come from then can be left for another scientist to answer. A scientist does NOT have to prove and observe the natural birthing process of swans to disprove water lilies turn into swans, anymore than Parson has to refine the exact pounds a dragon can carry to determine if a dragon can carry Parson.

You want scientific method? How about is there a way to curse in erfworld? That question was handled quite scientifically. Arguing that Parson didn't follow the scientific method in one instance does not prove that he doesn't use the scientific method at all. The truth is, I only have point out one instance he used the scientific method to prove that it is used. You have to argue against every action Parson ever did to prove your point. You can't just pick one given action.

[JamesL]

What would be scientific would be, what is the maximum that a dwagon could carry in pounds.

This may not be a legitimate question in Erfworld.

[suryasm]

Minor nitpick here; in "most games" from the fantasy turn based style (as opposed to RTS), resources are infinite. Meaning, if you can hold the crystal mine +2, it will produce crystals for you even on turn 1 million. For example, think of the Heroes of Might and Magic series and clones, or Disciples, and I think Age of Wonders too.

I've personally played a lot of strategy games, and I've yet to play a single one with unlimited resources. Even in Civ resources eventually get mined out if not phased out due to tech. There may be some game out there somewhere with infinite resources, but that hardly qualifies as "most". Those few games you named are obviously among the ones that I've not bothered with. To say most games, to me that person has to have played ALL the games to make such a call, and I don't see myself playing a bunch of TBS games without ever seeing an unlimited resources game, as supporting such an argument.

Dunno what this discussion is in aid of - we already know that resources are finite in Erfworld. GK had mined most of its easily reachable gems, and it took a volcanic eruption (and Sizemore being really on the ball) to get access to new gem sources. Even those will eventually be tapped out.

As for the whole scientific method debate, the fact remains that Parson is willing to commit tests and trial-and-error to determine results in advance. This makes him more of a scientist than anyone else on Erfworld. Whether it makes him a Scientist in the Earthly sense of the term, is like debating if Winnie the Pooh would vote Republican or Democrat - entertaining, but not very relevant to the story. That said, I think Parson does the scientific method pretty well for someone who probably never went to college.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Rats - the illustration left out the statue of the naked Archon...

I just had a moment of Fridge Logic: How do you tell a naked statue of an Archon is of an Archon and not just any other woman? I mean, naked statutes of Angels are not uncommon for fountains, and I'm pretty sure that's where the idea for the ErfWorld analogue comes from, but they don't have wings or anything to tell, do they?

I'm sure there is a very obvious answer to this issue, that is best left unsaid for reasons of sanity.

[LordDarksea]

About the "Decrypted aint worst than other units" i'd say decrypted are just as bad as their master. So if the decrypted army followed, let's say, Sizemore, i think they'd all be decent folk and actually consider decryption an improvement for some people (like stanley!).

But if they are ruled by Wanda the lady of pain... well... draw conclussions.

Instead of Sizemore make that Prince Ansom (as opposed to decrypted) what kind of decrypted did he raise? Answer, of course, being that he didn't and couldn't as he was not attuned. I would imagine that Sizemore would not have attuned either (although when the arkenfourinchpointingtrowel turns up, that might be a different question) so therefore wouldn't have been able to make decrypted.

The question is, is the personality of the decrypted dependent on the wielder or is the personality of the wielder required to make the decrypted? Perhaps (probably?) a hermeneutic combination of the pair, where each feeds into the other to produce the final thing.

-

On the upkeep thing, and about additional snacks, provisions and food. How would people feel about the idea that upkeep is roughly analogous to the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) so often touted by governments and nutritionists that tell you how much of each food group you require. The actual requirements vary depending on age, size, gender,ethnicity, life-style and so forth (read as unit type and level, etc.) rather than being one static number for everybody.

You can eat less (half rations as it were) but at some point you will begin to suffer from starvation type malnutrition, but equally you can eat more, but will suffer from obesity type malnutrition if pushed too far.

I would suppose that the biggest difference between the pair is that RDA is a recommended maximum, while Upkeep is, i think the average requirement.

Also, i really want to try those mushrooms. and, indeed, all the food Sizemore mentions...

[Sokrotes]

So i was thinking about this idea of Parson breaking the world with war, and a history figure came to mind: William Tecumseh Sherman. In case people dont know or forgot from school, General Sherman was the Civil War General that basically annihilated the south by destroying all the building, eating all the food, and ruining all the railroad tracks. His most famous move was burning Atlanta to the ground. He was like the nuclear bomb of the civil war and was the key factor that ended the war, his assault was so devastating the south could no longer sustain its soldiers. And Sherman was the general who said "War is hell". He hated war, and his belief was if war must happen you must have "total war" where you do everything you must to end it as quickly as possible. I think this sums up Parson well, and if he doesnt already think like this, with Sizemore and maggies help he will.

[oslecamo2]

I've personally played a lot of strategy games, and I've yet to play a single one with unlimited resources. Even in Civ resources eventually get mined out if not phased out due to tech. There may be some game out there somewhere with infinite resources, but that hardly qualifies as "most". Those few games you named are obviously among the ones that I've not bothered with. To say most games, to me that person has to have played ALL the games to make such a call, and I don't see myself playing a bunch of TBS games without ever seeing an unlimited resources game, as supporting such an argument.

I don't know what you've been playing, but aparently you've been missing a lot of great strategy titles.

Comand and Conquer ore mines replenish themselves(altough at a slow rate), and power plants work all the time.

Total anihilation and his younger brother, supreme comander, don't only have mines who'll provide you with metal for eternity at a constant rate, but also allow you to build metal generators, meaning you can always increase your resource increase as long as there's a free piece of land!

Masters of Magic cities and buildings never wear down their resource production, and you can even build more cities!

Ditto for advance wars and pals.

Masters of Magic in particular shares a LOT of similarities with Erfworld. Random heross/warlords, some of wich may be casters? Check. Stacks of units up to 8? Check. Crazy powerfull complex magic system divided in several schools? Check. Artifacts on heros? Check.Upkeep? Check. Units popped out of cities and not out of particular buildings? Check. Spending gold to instantly build stuff instead of waiting several turns? Check. Kill the enemy leader to win? Check.

[multilis]

Qualification: In *some* versions of Civ, *some bonuses* get mined out. You still have an overall *growing* income available as time goes on, tech vastly improves the income and production potential.