Book 2 - Page 10

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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:13 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
theseus2x wrote:Maybe Wanda wants to croak/decrypt Jillian?


Turning Jillian into a decrypted? A unit that must (it seems) serve unquestioningly and love Wanda? I can't see it appealing to her.



Yeah, as I mentioned, this is exactly what I think also. "Croaking" a unit has deep emotional significance for an Erfworlder. Ansom sure reacted to Ossomer's death. I think Wanda would feel the same way at Jillian's death too.


Dancing Cthulhu wrote:[
Gez wrote:Wanda likes "going too far" in her control of Jillian. Are you sure she wouldn't croak her, now that she can decrypt her afterwards?


But is that too far even for Wanda? I mean a bit of thinkamancy is one thing, but turning Jillian into someone compelled to love and serve Wanda... and we don't really know what Wanda feels about decrypted (as I mentioned above) - she hasn't shown them much consideration. Charlie seems to care more about his Archons - would Wanda think a decrypted Jillian is still her Jillian?



Again, yes. Remember also about the whole dungeon torture thing: Jillian seems to like it/be ok with it somehow. Her comment about Vanna, "she doesn't play right," is kinda telling. Not sure what's going on there. Maybe Erfworlder's don't feel pain the same way people do. As long as you have 1 hit point left you're ok. But kinda weird nevertheless. I wonder if this aspect of Jillian's personality will ever be addressed.


Dancing Cthulhu wrote:[
Watsit Hoohow wrote:She actively betrayed FAQ to Stanley while she was working for it. So if she does rejoin FAQ, it won't be for that reason.


Although through loyalty contortions it could be said she didn't think Faq would end up like it did.



I think Wanda may have had other predictions too, more than she let on to Parson. I wonder if those also could have led to her putting Faq in danger the way she did.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Graydon » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:45 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
Graydon wrote:Anybody else thing Ossomer and Parson are going to get along?


No. So far, the only people who Parson really gets along with have a) been sent to his death in Parson's service, b) grown the hate the man's brutal approach to warfare, c) are Maggie. Unless Parson somehow discovers the benefits of being honorable, not likely.


Parson's highly honourable.

Honour is about social approval; Erf honour is all following the rules. Parson's is about using the least sufficient means to win, and derives from a social system no one (else) on Erf has ever heard of.

I have this weird image of Ossomer being assigned as Parson's body guard if Parson's sent forward to command.


While I don't know about get along, I do think the two could teach each other quite a bit if forced to endure each other's company.


Ossomer isn't obviously stupid, and unlike Ansom he is quite comfortable listening to the advice of others. He might well be a convert to empiricism and the axiom of inherent value. Which, for a decrypted unit, would be several sorts of first.

Also, Parson is a garrison unit; his lack of portability by dragon may derive from that rather than being Heavy. Even if he really is a Heavy unit in some fundamental sense, there are archons available to carry him in a net. This line of theorizing implies Parson's personal stack is going to wind up consisting of Parson, Ossomer, Ossomer's dragon mount, and four archons with a net.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Infidel » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:39 am

Graydon wrote:
Parson's highly honourable.

Honour is about social approval; Erf honour is all following the rules. Parson's is about using the least sufficient means to win, and derives from a social system no one (else) on Erf has ever heard of.


Honor is about integrity. Doing what you say you will do. It is not about social approval, it just tends to accrue social approval in most societies--usually after the honorable person is safely dead. While there are lots of different subsystems of honor, they all are based on integrity as the core value. Thus, honorable people that follow different systems of honor, will recognize their enemies integrity, but take issue with their standards of honor. An honorable person is one who follows their integrity in the face of social pressure to conform to some other standard.

There was nothing honorable about Parson offering to surrender and then using the lowering of the enemy's guard as an opportunity to attack. There is no social system where this is considered honorable.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby ErfNch » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:14 am

There was nothing honorable about Parson offering to surrender and then using the lowering of the enemy's guard as an opportunity to attack. There is no social system where this is considered honorable.


Is there more honor in coming with an overwhelming number of troops to crush a city ?

I don't mean veiling Bogroll was honorable, it was not. But Parson did what he had to do to survive and Ansom did what he could to kill him, that's what war is about. Parson is not honorable because of what he did in war, but what he does "outside". He values life, be it for his troops or his ennemy, and now refuses to be in command beacause he don't want to be responsible for anyone's death (though refusing to be in charge isn't his best option but that's another discussion). He also don't use his power as a warlord to get what he wants from the archons or "any troops" (as Maggie said) while it appears to be normal in Erfworld and he clearly considered it.

On the other hand, Ansom, while apparently very keen on making honorable war, is fine with kneeling troops in line to croack and decrypt them. But when it comes to his own brother, it suddenly becomes "wholly unnecessary". In my opinion, what makes Parson honorable is he don't consider "troops" as a disposable resource, but as beings.

P.S. : I'm sincerely sorry for my horrible english, feel free to correct me.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby valce » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:15 am

Looks like Jillian isn't in Jetstone's battlespace... Ossomer was misinformed?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:37 am

Graydon wrote:Also, Parson is a garrison unit; his lack of portability by dragon may derive from that rather than being Heavy. Even if he really is a Heavy unit in some fundamental sense, there are archons available to carry him in a net. This line of theorizing implies Parson's personal stack is going to wind up consisting of Parson, Ossomer, Ossomer's dragon mount, and four archons with a net.

Parson is not riding into battle in a rope bag. He'll probably design some sort of chariot, have the twolls make it for him, and get some dwagons to pull it.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Goshen » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:45 pm

theseus2x wrote:
Goshen wrote:
Infidel wrote:Anyone else notice the "We don't have time." reference? I thought if it was your turn, and no one was in your hex attacking, then you had all the time in the world. Is there really no time, or is Wanda just being impatient? Or maybe they have some enchantments up that will dispell after a given time?

If a live Ossomer could ever be broken and made obedient, it could take days or weeks or years.


Exactly. Wanda knew there was no way to pull that off without a Turnamancer.

And a broken Ossomer would be broken. This way, she just gained another high-level warlord.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby SuperDuperHai2U » Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:46 pm

And when leonidas feinged defeat against the persians in the film to kill the general, was that honourable? Yet people would say he died an honourable death.

I still support getting stanley to the frontline immediaty. In all strategy games, the loyalty of the ruler/overlord/king is always listed as N/A. Hence he would be the only one completely immune to the effect of a turnamancer. Put him on the turnamancer and wanda handle jillian i say.

stanley is like a Xiang Yu, give him proper direction and he'll destroy everything in his path. He just needs to listen to Parson properly.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby ftl » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:23 pm

valce wrote:Looks like Jillian isn't in Jetstone's battlespace... Ossomer was misinformed?


Huh? Why do you think she's not?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Ytaker » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:16 pm

ErfNch wrote:
Is there more honor in coming with an overwhelming number of troops to crush a city ?


Yes. Stanley had that many troops because he lost. It would have been enough too, if Parson hadn't released Jill on a vague hope.

ErfNch wrote:I don't mean veiling Bogroll was honorable, it was not. But Parson did what he had to do to survive and Ansom did what he could to kill him, that's what war is about. Parson is not honorable because of what he did in war, but what he does "outside". He values life, be it for his troops or his ennemy, and now refuses to be in command beacause he don't want to be responsible for anyone's death (though refusing to be in charge isn't his best option but that's another discussion). He also don't use his power as a warlord to get what he wants from the archons or "any troops" (as Maggie said) while it appears to be normal in Erfworld and he clearly considered it.


"I did it to survive" is not a reasonable defense. After all, it didn't in the end have any benefit whatsoever, as they mass croaked anyone a panel or two later anyway. The only consequence was that the royal coalition side would no longer trust them enough to let them surrender. That's a sign he values winning over life. His remaining Gobwins would be put to the sword, rather than offered a chance at life.

He's been better recently. That doesn't mean he won't relapse and do something twice as bad by the end of book 2. It's nice he's not a rapist.

ErfNch wrote:On the other hand, Ansom, while apparently very keen on making honorable war, is fine with kneeling troops in line to croack and decrypt them. But when it comes to his own brother, it suddenly becomes "wholly unnecessary". In my opinion, what makes Parson honorable is he don't consider "troops" as a disposable resource, but as beings.


As a mind controlled person, he's slightly messed up.

When he's not in war, certainly. And while he considers the casters as beings, and Bogroll we've only seen a few signs that he might view an infantry unit as a being. He was sad after killing the coalition by burning them to death, I guess. And he was willing to sacrifice Bogroll.

P.S. : I'm sincerely sorry for my horrible english, feel free to correct me.[/quote]
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:25 pm

Ytaker wrote:"I did it to survive" is not a reasonable defense. After all, it didn't in the end have any benefit whatsoever, as they mass croaked anyone a panel or two later anyway. The only consequence was that the royal coalition side would no longer trust them enough to let them surrender. That's a sign he values winning over life. His remaining Gobwins would be put to the sword, rather than offered a chance at life.


First off, only casters are considered worth "turning".
All of the gobwins would have been slain after the battle unless Parson won, no matter what.
Only Parson, Sizemore, Maggie and Wanda would have been captured, no matter what Parson did.

Second, Ansom had the single highest bonus of any warlord in the RCC.
Parson knew that bonuses to your side are substantially more important than the number of units you have.
Killing Ansom removes the RC's largest bonus, and also potentially fracture's the alliance, reducing both bonuses and numbers, potentially.
Killing Ansom was definitely a risk worth taking.
It's benefit wasn't enough to turn the tide of battle, but sacrificing a Twoll for a level 10 Warlord is a completely rational trade in this type of warfare.

Finally, survival (i.e. self-defense) is acknowledged in most countries as a legitimate reason for killing.
In many places, invasion of a home is reason enough, even if you don't believe your life is in mortal danger.

Are there any inhabitants of Erfworld that only act honorable, noble, and respectful of life?
Ansom send dozens of men into the courtyard to be slaughtered, in order to set up a dance-fight counter. Why didn't he wait until the counter was set up first? More of his men would have survived...
Jillian? With Charlie's help, she willing orchestrated a subterfuge and betrayal on a far greater scope than Parson did, and she wasn't even directly under attack. Vinnie approved.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Ytaker » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:08 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
First off, only casters are considered worth "turning".
All of the gobwins would have been slain after the battle unless Parson won, no matter what.
Only Parson, Sizemore, Maggie and Wanda would have been captured, no matter what Parson did.


It doesn't say casters are considered worth turning.

This is Ansom. The guy who just said that many lives would be saved if his brother would turn, and that it would be a great good. He values turning people to his cause. He would probs have been willing to let the Gobwins return to their tunnels for a chance to gloat at Parson.

Parson probs. Wanda probs, so she could be croaked a thousand times for what she did. I doubt Maggie and Sizemore would be so protected.

MarbitChow wrote:Second, Ansom had the single highest bonus of any warlord in the RCC.
Parson knew that bonuses to your side are substantially more important than the number of units you have.
Killing Ansom removes the RC's largest bonus, and also potentially fracture's the alliance, reducing both bonuses and numbers, potentially.
Killing Ansom was definitely a risk worth taking.
It's benefit wasn't enough to turn the tide of battle, but sacrificing a Twoll for a level 10 Warlord is a completely rational trade in this type of warfare.


Ruthless. But trueish. Not honourable. His sword never granted him the trait honourable. They still had an enormous army, and if he had calculated it, he would have seen that in the long run it wasn't enough. So, if he hadn't had the volcano idea, it would have been more rational to surrender.

MarbitChow wrote:Finally, survival (i.e. self-defense) is acknowledged in most countries as a legitimate reason for killing.
In many places, invasion of a home is reason enough, even if you don't believe your life is in mortal danger.


Yes. So. How does that relate to Sizemore attacking Ansom?

There's a difference between invasion of a home and a peace treaty between you and an attacker, in that your attacker is putting their trust in you to save lives, and a home invader is trying to steal your stuff or kill you.

MarbitChow wrote:Are there any inhabitants of Erfworld that only act honorable, noble, and respectful of life?
Ansom send dozens of men into the courtyard to be slaughtered, in order to set up a dance-fight counter. Why didn't he wait until the counter was set up first? More of his men would have survived...
Jillian? With Charlie's help, she willing orchestrated a subterfuge and betrayal on a far greater scope than Parson did, and she wasn't even directly under attack. Vinnie approved.


Probably.

Only for a short time. He did it because he was impetuous, and didn't think, likely. Since they hadn't dance fought before. However, by ordering them to fill the courtyard, he ensured they had overwhelming force, so less troops would die. It's debatable whether ordering them to stop sending men would have saved more.

Yes, and she's known as a dishonourable mercenary who doesn't like rules.

I'm not sure how your references to other people change the nature of Parson.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:38 am

Well now GK has the chance to get more casters. Without Ossomer's chief bonuses the stall force has lost a big piece of it's arsenal. I guess we'll see what happens. I think some are overestimating just how much the dittomancer can do. Some seem to think he make em near invincible.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:06 am

Watsit Hoohow wrote:
pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:Wanda was originally a caster for FAQ. When FAQ fell she became a caster working for Stanley. Now that FAQ has a queen and is back in business her loyalty should return to FAQ.


She actively betrayed FAQ to Stanley while she was working for it. So if she does rejoin FAQ, it won't be for that reason.


Wanda was trying to get Stanley killed. Claiming the arkenhammer for FAQ would have been a significant boon for her side. Making a blunder is not an act of treason.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby multilis » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:06 am

So, if he hadn't had the volcano idea, it would have been more rational to surrender.

Parson's natural thinkomancy is for Stanley, surrendering would hurt Stanley by making his enemies a bit stronger. Not surrendering had a small chance either the new leadership would quit attacking till charlie's turn or coolition would fracture.

If the other side waited for Charlie, there was small chance Parson could pull a fast one with Charlie's diplomacy.

Collapsing GK likely did a random amount of damage to each enemy unit, possible there was a small chance enough damage would be done that Parson had a shot at barely winning.

Book 2, Page 1 hints that Stanley was dumb to not buy the 150K support plan for Parson which suggests Parson is not trained up to potential, including with the calculator. He only recently discovered that he could predict future events with it.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:52 am

ErfNch wrote:Is there more honor in coming with an overwhelming number of troops to crush a city ?


That is valid strategic thinking and does not relate to honor in any way. Honor in fighting has nothing to do with "Fighting Fair." It is about integrity. Honor in fighting is killing your enemies cleanly and giving quarter when it is asked, and honoring parley flags. Parson abused the right of parley. There are some other things that would apply in our world, but not in erf, such as treating the enemy wounded and honoring the enemy dead. Surrender in ERF, is no different from dying in combat if you're not a high value unit, like a warlord or caster. In our world it is the opposite, the top generals get tried for war-crimes, and the little guys go free.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Keldaria » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:20 am

soo Jillian is in the jetstone capital... meaning 2 ruling parties are in 1 capital... which begs the question. If you croak a ruler... can you Decrypt them? and if you can do you gain control over former forces?

And I wonder if Faq's heir was poped yet... I'm leaning twords yes if the don allowed her to head to aid jetstone... i dought he would let her risk being croaked if the heir was still a few turns away... I mean i know TV is still working on poping their heir, but jillian did get abit of help from a turnamancer meaning he should have poped faster

Also I wonder how Ansom will react to his former love Jillian
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Angband » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:29 pm

Infidel wrote:
Graydon wrote:There was nothing honorable about Parson offering to surrender and then using the lowering of the enemy's guard as an opportunity to attack. There is no social system where this is considered honorable.


Except that there is no social system that has the concepts of Duty and Loyalty enforced by Natural Thinkamancy. Remember, at the end of TBfGK1, Parson could not order the casters into the portal to the magic kingdom, because he hadn't yet ruled out the possibility that uncroaking the volcano might work. Parson might have had no choice except to have Bogroll do the veiled stab at Ansom.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Glenn » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:11 pm

The rules of Parley exist in Erfworld for a reason. By allowing opposing Commanders in the field to trust one another enough to negotiate, Parley makes it possible to limit, at least slightly, the full horror and atrocity of war. It is possible, for example, to turn surrendering troops other than Casters. For example, Vanna turns Duncan Scone, a Warlord, to the service of Faq. When Anson agreed to meet with Parson, he probably expected to make that sort of surrender agreement. Every Erfworld commander is capable of the sort of short term thinking Parson used when he decided to abuse the rules of Parley. Most don't do it, despite the obvious temptations, because they can see the long term consequences. If Parson has any defense against the accusation that he was dishonorable in this case, it would be that he was acting under the influence of his sword, which made him utterly ruthless.

Queen Bea also broke Parley when she had her daughter killed, but most Erfworlders would probably feel a lot more sympathy for Bea than for Parson, given the whole Decryption/mind control issue.

While Jillian didn't break the rules of parley as badly as Parson or Bea did, she at least bent them when she called for Parley, and then revealed she was parleying with the western Giants, and not with Duncan Scone. One reason why she took Scone alive may be precisely because she felt a bit uncomfortable with that level of deception.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 10

Postby Menas » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:17 pm

Glenn wrote:The rules of Parley exist in Erfworld for a reason.


"They're not 'rules', so much as 'guidelines'."

;-)
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