Book 2 – Text Updates 003

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby random_guy » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:29 pm

@Slowness
I doubt Don King is trying to claim Jillian's heir. Afterall, he is popping his own heir, and it would be a waste of resources to pop one if he were to abandon it in favor of another. From the current update: "When this new heir popped...." Caesar is referring to Don King's heir with that line.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Ytaker » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:44 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:I wonder how strong TV actually is. I consiodered them a great power of erfworld, about as strong as Jetstone and stronger than minor powers like Unaroyal or HobitTM. However, they seem to be as strong as Unaroyal.

TV has 19 warlords (+Ceasar?), and lost 8 since Jillian became Queen. They lost 2 warlords at the battle at the chokepoint, so they once had 29 warlords + 1 chief warlord.

Unaroyal had before the last battle 11 warlorda and about 2000 units left. Ansom said that they had lost half of their troops in the fights with the new GK, so that were about 2000 units, too. They send about 1.700 units to the TBfGK. Assuming they allocated the warlords proportionally, they once had about 6.000 units with 30 warlords. About the same size as TV.


It's likely they don't heavily rely on infantry. "I din't fall for it. When Don ordered us in, we din't do an airspace attack. I ordered some firebirds, thunderbirds, and a couple a battle Bears in from Blackula. Just those two golems, they were the only siege that could reach. I stood in the road with them and led 'em myself, just pounded at the gate while Broadway Tony took the Goyles and birds up and hit the wall defenders. Bats flyin' around takin' arrows for me... It was a scene. " Extremely strong air army, with some heavy siege units here and there. Air units seem to be much more expensive.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Markidactyl » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:32 pm

Yeah, I did too. Reading the reactions got me all confused.
I didn't imagine the battle would go so easy for GK





Yeah, not to mention it was really late when I wrote that, and I'm stupid when I'm tried. Stupider, anyway.


Anyway, an 'hour later?' Did the whole parlay/capture thing happen an hour after they got there, or are they referring to something else?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby multilis » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:18 pm

A close battle/situation with no clear winner is enough to fullfill both sides imo. Both sides expected easy wins, so both sides would be sobered up and some disarray to find out they might lose.

Everyone also has to fear more surprises including more cloaked armies (eg Charlie), Royals may fear backstab (Hagar and Faq carry unknowns), GK has potential distrust with Stanley/Wanda/Ansom/Parson. (Though I suspect Ansom got a bit more respect for Parson after realising he was right about needing more intel)

TV is interesting, we don't see into Don's head yet, only Caeser's.

Charlie will remain a potential game changer, eg if he could convince Giants to switch sides to Jillian, he may be able to convince them later to betray Jillian and side with him, and 100+ archons could always be hiding 1-2 turns away from anyone.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby factotum » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:24 pm

multilis wrote:(Though I suspect Ansom got a bit more respect for Parson after realising he was right about needing more intel)


I doubt it. One thing that Ansom has consistently shown is that he's not good at admitting to mistakes. I think the main reason for this whole part of the plot was to get Wanda the news that Jillian is present in Spacerock, because Wanda is effectively the leader of this army--they're all Decrypted and will ultimately answer to her in preference to anyone else, so what she decides now will probably determine the entire outcome of the battle (and thus the rest of the book).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Spot » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:29 pm

factotum wrote:Strange that they have a concept of hours in a turn-based world... :D



Much like we on the real Earth have the concept of months (a vestigial remnant from the old *lunar* calendar systems), combined with our present system based on a *solar* calendar (days, years, etc.).

So, having two mostly-incompatible time systems mashed together wouldn't be unique to Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby multilis » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:31 pm

"I doubt it. One thing that Ansom has consistently shown is that he's not good at admitting to mistakes."

Art wise, his face flipped from angry to sober once his brother started talking.

I think Ansom can see his mistakes, though he doesn't like to admit them, including sending part of his forces in tunnels in book 1. His overreaction after that was due to fearing/respecting what Parson could do given time.

"concept of hours in a turn-based world" ...with real time inside turns, summer updates went into details as far as perceptions. (Lords of the Realm games were similar hybrid)

"hour later..." from time the head of GK column pulls up to bridge. Possible that hour was used up with more units marching up, the parley, capture of O, and GK consulting what to do next but not making their move. The double blow of foolomancy and losing chief warlord O would be enough to scare the boop out of other side, but of course more also may have happenned.

(This may be the first time a chief warlord protected by a "capital" stack including mancers got surgically captured, may be inconceivable event for erfworlders in general. Captured chief *instantly* decrypts to other side fully healed, enemy knows everything about them and they don't know what enemy has, and enemy can *mid battle* turn your dead into their healthy troops.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby atalex » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:16 pm

It occurs to me that only information we have regarding the Caesar-Buffy relationship came in the form of 2 text updates, both of which were completely from Caesar's point of view and neither of which actually showed any interaction between the two. Personally, I think that Don King is not only aware of the "relationship," he created it, by ordering Buffy to seduce and spy on his heir designate for any signs of disloyalty. Indeed, the Don's moves towards replacing and perhaps even eliminating Caesar (both of which seem to be irrational from Caesar's point of view) may in fact be the result of statements Caesar made to Buffy in which he disagreed with the Don's plan too openly, thereby leading Don King to think he could no longer trust Caesar. Thoughts?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby multilis » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:54 pm

Don has survived 2 backstabs, would expect him to be paranoid about a third. Ordering one of your people to seduce and spy on another, caries the risk of them going "native", actually falling in love/ending up with more loyalty for target than you. Thinkomancy loyalty spell might be safer alternative.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:07 pm

Zeal wrote:It looks like basically they were attempting to stall GK forces at the bridge while reinforcements were brought up....However, this plan starts to fall apart quickly due to the increased mobility of the GK forces. I think this realisation is what caused the reaction at the TV party....



There's also a possibility that Transylvito is seeing events well after Ossomer's capture. I.e., now that Wanda has Ossomer and the intel, and maybe has consulted further with Parson, what is she doing? I'd bet that Transylvito has seen it, and next update we will too.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Ancient History » Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:58 pm

While I'm all for looking at the tactical benefits of Don King's investment in FAQ, I think we might be missing the simple answer: Don King believes in royalty. Maybe he softened on it a little after two consecutive heirs tried to dethrone him, but in the brief time since The Gweat Uncroaking Goblin Knob has a) espoused a terrible new anti-royal philosophy, b) overturned previous concepts of loyalty and warfare, c) appears to be winning in that they've steamrolled over everything and d) Unaroyal committed suicide and sent Don King the note. Given these developments, and Don's own statements, you have to think that maybe he really wants to maintain royalty - any royalty - that he can, even Jillian.

Of course, having Queen Jillian of FAQ also means securing part of a border, and creating a strongly loyal ally that has some significant units (megalogwiffs) now. Transylvito might have caused Stanley to fall back when he tried to reclaim FAQ's cities, but against this new force he might be looking at something more than his usual tactics. (Put it this way: imagine Transylvito tactics with magalogwiffs instead of bats.) From Caesar's perspective, losing those three cities was due to Don King paying attention to other things - and maybe that's true. Or maybe Don King knows that when the real war comes to Transylvito, he'd be better off with fewer, more easily defended cities. Or maybe he's pushing Caesar so hard he'll level.

Rampant speculation, but fun.

The Bridge at Spacerock was a trap, obviously, but I think it was a trap-within-a-trap. On the surface, Ossomer was correct in that the forces of GK that he could see should not have been able to take the bridge - putting them in the unenviable position of a bloody but statistically unlikely to win battle, retreat, or attempting to maneuver around that hex. The fact that GK brought more or a different composition of forces wasn't a terrible surprise - back-up forces were in place both not far away and in Spacerock to counter GK's known strengths in the event they managed to blow through or past the bridge. No doubt if GK retreated or wasted time maneuvering these forces would have come out to assist Jetstone's Army of the Bridge and/or hit them in the flanks, and if they did manage to bypass the bridge hex with, say, a flight of dwagons against Spacerock, then Jillian, the unipegataurs, and Spacerock's air defenses would hold them off until Haggar and/or the Army of the Bridge could come up to support.

Now that the Army of the Bridge is weakened without it's highest-level warlord, the Royal Crown Coalition II is shadowboxing again. Assuming they know Ossomer was captured, they may not be aware that he was croaked and decrypt; if they don't know that, then they don't know if GK knows about their trap. If they do assume everything Ossomer knew GK now knows, they're going to have to scramble to guess what GK will do next...just like us.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Hobgobwin » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:24 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:I wonder how strong TV actually is. I consiodered them a great power of erfworld, about as strong as Jetstone and stronger than minor powers like Unaroyal or HobitTM. However, they seem to be as strong as Unaroyal.

TV has 19 warlords (+Ceasar?), and lost 8 since Jillian became Queen. They lost 2 warlords at the battle at the chokepoint, so they once had 29 warlords + 1 chief warlord.

Unaroyal had before the last battle 11 warlorda and about 2000 units left. Ansom said that they had lost half of their troops in the fights with the new GK, so that were about 2000 units, too. They send about 1.700 units to the TBfGK. Assuming they allocated the warlords proportionally, they once had about 6.000 units with 30 warlords. About the same size as TV.


TV seems like a much less conventional side. Can it even produce common infantry like pikers or stabbers? If not, it's logical that they would produce way more knights and commanders than other sides.


Incidentally, I like how cities have themes. Jetstone is a royalty heavy civ so it popped three heirs, TV is an areal civ so it can only make flying units (minus the doll golems).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Fug » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:45 pm

I wonder how reliable Haggar is as an ally? They were coerced into this and could probably take the castle if they choose while the prince's units were out of it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby the_tick_rules » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:48 pm

Now that's an idea.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Sokrotes » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:15 pm

Ok i also didn't catch that it was ceasars point of view at first. I thought it was just from a third point of view but in the style of TV. So i guess Ceasar was talking of himself in third person. So if it is Ceasar talking let me just point out, he is not DOn. His information may not be complete. He knows much of what TV does but he is not Don King, and more important he has his own ideas and will tell the story different then Don King would. Though this update is infomative i think we need to take it with a grain of salt. For instance i believe he is greatly exaggerating with his "all of the treasury", and we already know he has little regard for Jillian so perhaps she is doing even better then he makes it out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:46 pm

Ancient History wrote: (Put it this way: imagine Transylvito tactics with magalogwiffs instead of bats.)


The idea behind Transylvito style is to use masses of weak, but cheap units and make them very strong with a number of bonuses. It takes 3-5 turns to pop a megalogwiffin. A TV city can probably pop 30-50 bats in the meantime, assuming they pop 10 bats a day. In Ceasar's personal stack that means he has 30-50 "almost heavy" units. The sheer mass takes down an enemy.

Hobgobwin wrote:TV seems like a much less conventional side. Can it even produce common infantry like pikers or stabbers? If not, it's logical that they would produce way more knights and commanders than other sides.


I believe every city can produce infantry. However, if they focus on strong units like knights and commanders (I think they do), why do they have so relatively few warlords? I expected at least 50 to 60 warlords. Jillian mentions dozens of nobles that were at her meeting with Slatley. That makes me think that Jetstone is much larger than all other members of the RCC II, and TV is just a middle sized power.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby theseus2x » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:47 pm

Speculation : Regarding Transylvito warlords, it always seemed to me that T. seems to be very Warlord-heavy in its forces. Consider the battle of the path to Faq. All they sent were 11 Warlords (more than 1/3 their total) and a ton of bats. No Goils (which I assume are flying gargoyles), no skanks, no other units. Also, their sole initial contribution to RCC1 was Vinnie That indicates to me that whatever their overall force strength is, their Warlords represent a disproportionately high percentage of their total strength.

Just an idea...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Rogthnor01 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:40 pm

While it doesn't mention alot of warlords you but have to remember that they all have the natural ability to fly. That would be very useful.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:14 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:I wonder how strong TV actually is. I consiodered them a great power of erfworld, about as strong as Jetstone and stronger than minor powers like Unaroyal or HobitTM. However, they seem to be as strong as Unaroyal.

TV has 19 warlords (+Ceasar?), and lost 8 since Jillian became Queen. They lost 2 warlords at the battle at the chokepoint, so they once had 29 warlords + 1 chief warlord.


Perhaps, but TV's military power can simply be seen as a powerful alternative to some of the other sides we have seen. Their warlords seem (what with natural flight and dancefighting) gutsier then the warlords of other sides, they can produce lots of cheap bats quickly which can be absolutly overwealming depending on how they are used, plus they have Goyles, Skanks, Firebirds and Thunderbirds...

So I'd say they are very much in the Jetstone range of Erfworld powers rather then the Unaroyal range, they just rely on a small but highly mobile and strong airforce rather then the conventional massed infantry and noble warlords Jetstone or infantry of Unaroyal.

Certainly so far we've only seen 3 sides with considerable airforces - Faq, GK and TV (Charlie kind of counts), and I guess that puts TV in a strong, almost niche, position except when facing enemies that have prepped for fighting flyers (like Carpool did not to many turns ago).

Zeku wrote:My theory. Don King has hired Charlie from the beginning...


I wouldn't mind a version of that, maybe not that the Don is behind it all, but that he might at least be wise to something going on and is happy to go along with it now because it benifits his side. Simply because I like the idea of Don as the type who knows what is what and that kind of thing.

I am hoping though that all the heir business is part of a bigger, Godfather themed gambit though, rather then Don has just got a royal bee in his bonnet. For the set up we've got I'm hoping the pay off will be very good and Mafia Machiavellian on his part.

Slowness wrote: Am I the only person here that likes him?


Nah, I'm quite the fan myself (or getting there at any rate, I like what I've seen and I'm hoping Trem continues to be good in future).

I'm pretty sure Don King doesn't like Jillian, and is only using her to get a suitable heir...


It's not a bad idea, although he already had a great warrior successor lined up - Caesar. Really the only thing Caesar is lacking is the royal blood, and I guess of late the leadership savvy to see that the Don is probably right to be expending so much effort in fighting GK.

Whatever it is about Don King, I definitely see him as the kind of guy who pits his enemies against each other, and cleans up the mess afterwards... He's a bit of a sneak...


I guess it would fit the kind of HW mafia theme his side has going.

MuthSera wrote:hasn't everyone forgotten about the giants?


I think the real question is - has everyone forgotten the Tardy Elves? ;)

The giants I'm assuming are still hanging around in Faq, guarding the cities and patrolling.

I admit I've been wondering "What about the Marbits?" but I'm saw all these unfired guns hinted at will be fired in due time.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby SkyK » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:55 am

I'm personally just amused that the last paragraph says:

There were only five people in the room, all of them real sober.


And the picture shows six. I know, I know, probably just not depicting some other time during the party/etc.
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