Book 2 – Text Updates 003

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:57 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:I believe every city can produce infantry. However, if they focus on strong units like knights and commanders (I think they do), why do they have so relatively few warlords? I expected at least 50 to 60 warlords. Jillian mentions dozens of nobles that were at her meeting with Slatley. That makes me think that Jetstone is much larger than all other members of the RCC II, and TV is just a middle sized power.


True, and Jetstone can put an entire stack of noble warlords on the field, although they can't fly and most of them probably can't dance fight. And I don't think they can turn Orlys (the Jetstone eqivalent to bats I'd guess) into basic infantry (or advanced infantry or even heavies depending on the Chief Warlord being there or being in his stack).

I'm guessing the size of the side doesn't always matter, Jetstone likely is a lot larger, and thus can pump out huge infantry forces and lots of warlords, while TV, being smaller, might produce more powerful units, albiet at a slower, maybe more expensive rate, thus fewer warlords. So it balances out (JS - lots of likely low level WLs, TV - fewer, but more powerful/versitile WLs) and I think would put TV higher on the food chain then Unaroyal or Haggar

SkyK wrote:And the picture shows six. I know, I know, probably just not depicting some other time during the party/etc.


I believe the one in the corner is just a doll, so probably doesn't count (being a cloth golem)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby kagato23 » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:31 am

I don't think they realy are equivalents. Using Vinny's bats the way they did early on, I think the natural thinkamancy that links them up the way they did is unique to TV's side. The Bats can function as an army, but their unique talent beyond that is allowing one to scout hex's, damn valuable if you don't have a Lookamancer/Thinkamancer/Foolamancer Linkup. It could also be used to cover one's trail and make sure nobody else is on it.

Orly's strike me more as being a low power flying unit. More used with a flying capable warlord so they can have something go with them, usefull as backup/distraction and probably a bit stronger then bats stat wise but lacking the unique trait.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Gez » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:58 am

Sokrotes wrote:Ok i also didn't catch that it was ceasars point of view at first. I thought it was just from a third point of view but in the style of TV. So i guess Ceasar was talking of himself in third person.

This is what literature majors call "third person internal focaliser". The narrator isn't actually Caesar, but just presents things from Caesar's viewpoint, including free indirect discourse citations.

In most novels with an heterodiegetic narrator, the focus switches from character to character, and from being internal to being external.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby spriteless » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:02 am

Hmm, there's a bit more about free will on Erfworld as Don ordered everyone to have a good time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby SkarmoryThePG » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:13 am

SkyK wrote:I'm personally just amused that the last paragraph says:

There were only five people in the room, all of them real sober.


And the picture shows six. I know, I know, probably just not depicting some other time during the party/etc.


Methinks the Doll doesn't count.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Sokrotes » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:25 am

Gez wrote:
Sokrotes wrote:Ok i also didn't catch that it was ceasars point of view at first. I thought it was just from a third point of view but in the style of TV. So i guess Ceasar was talking of himself in third person.

This is what literature majors call "third person internal focaliser". The narrator isn't actually Caesar, but just presents things from Caesar's viewpoint, including free indirect discourse citations.

In most novels with an heterodiegetic narrator, the focus switches from character to character, and from being internal to being external.

Lol thank you, literature majors do come in handy! :D I'm just a silly psych major.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:40 am

SkarmoryThePG wrote:
SkyK wrote:I'm personally just amused that the last paragraph says:

There were only five people in the room, all of them real sober.


And the picture shows six. I know, I know, probably just not depicting some other time during the party/etc.


Methinks the Doll doesn't count.


The update is from Caesar's PoV. There were five people in the room not counting himself.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Oberon » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:32 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Boy Transylvito really sank some coin into Faq huh?

It sure seems that way. And I'm wondering where the profit is in that, for TV? In any TBS game I've ever played it has been far more useful to have a single side wielding all of the resources than to have two allied sides with the resources split between them. A single side is better able to react to surprises, and can apply all of the combined resources to handle those surprises. The sole benefit I see from having two sides is that you effectively go twice in the turn, but about the time that becomes an advantage over allying and going at the same time you're already much stronger than any opposition.

With only a few bats in the Jetstone battlespace they just about mirror their presence at TBfGK, a few bats and Vinny. Maybe Don prefers to maintain the pretense that he isn't really a part of the RCC or RCCII? Or at least such a minor partner that he could say he was coerced, and gave as little support as he could without angering Jetstone. But even if so, I don't see how he could think that any amount of plausible deniability would keep GK from taking his cities, should things go that way.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Hobgobwin » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:15 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Jillian mentions dozens of nobles that were at her meeting with Slatley.


What meeting with Slately? Could I have a link, please?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby ftl » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:26 pm

Hobgobwin wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Jillian mentions dozens of nobles that were at her meeting with Slatley.


What meeting with Slately? Could I have a link, please?


Summer update #19.

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... lk_600.jpg

In her mind Jillian had built up this meeting into something awful, like her brief and stiff audience with Ansom's father King Slately. In the royal court of Jetsone, they had stood her up before the throne and drilled her with a few pointed and humiliating questions, in front of a coterie of dozens of snickering Nobles. Slately had thought of her as barbarian scum. Ansom too, she supposed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby multilis » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:51 pm

Oberon wrote:... In any TBS game I've ever played it has been far more useful to have a single side wielding all of the resources than to have two allied sides with the resources split between them...

We have hints of diminishing returns (summer update with Charlie asking Parson why they stopped attacking others), a large kingdom makes less profit per city, possible a larger empire can do only around 1/2 or 1/3 as much with an extra city than a small one, and for a really large kingdom extra cities are useless.

Civilization games I believe go this direction to various degrees. In the earlier ones you pay a small price for having more than X cities, but that is often countered by the wonders. But in a later one (I think it was Civ 3 but not sure), too many cities becomes useless, it becomes better to raze new cities, eg using expensive cash boosted settler production than keep them.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Kadasbrass » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:19 pm

multilis wrote:
Oberon wrote:... In any TBS game I've ever played it has been far more useful to have a single side wielding all of the resources than to have two allied sides with the resources split between them...

We have hints of diminishing returns (summer update with Charlie asking Parson why they stopped attacking others), a large kingdom makes less profit per city, possible a larger empire can do only around 1/2 or 1/3 as much with an extra city than a small one, and for a really large kingdom extra cities are useless.

Civilization games I believe go this direction to various degrees. In the earlier ones you pay a small price for having more than X cities, but that is often countered by the wonders. But in a later one (I think it was Civ 3 but not sure), too many cities becomes useless, it becomes better to raze new cities, eg using expensive cash boosted settler production than keep them.


To better clarify, in Civ2, and civ3, cities suffered lower production and gold income the further away they are from your gold, this lose was called Corruption. There was ways to reduce this, buildings, specialist, and government choices.

In Civ4 it behaves differently, the further away cities are and the more cities you have, the higher the maintenance cost, thou production was unaffected. Having more than one city on a different continent also accrued an extra colony cost. You had the option in the expansion to grand these cities independence as a brand new civilization as your vassal (sort of like Faq).

Building a bunch of cities quickly killed your economy, and your research. Building a bunch of colony cities mid game could do the same. If you could weather the cost then in the long run its better to keep them your cities since you could better manage the resources. However sometimes you can’t survive the short term cost and its better to let them become independent.

So it’s a short run cost verse long run benefit thing. As for TV, I’m not sure they can survive the short run cost. Their weak neighbors are picking off cities. If GK turns towards them anytime soon their defiantly a goner as fast as you can say “All Hail Don Kin...”
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby splintermute » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:58 pm

Fug wrote:I wonder how reliable Haggar is as an ally? They were coerced into this and could probably take the castle if they choose while the prince's units were out of it.


I'm not sure Haggar can betray Jetstone like that. So far, the only instances of betrayal we've seen have involved natural allies - gobwins vs. Saline IV, giants vs. Jitterati. We've never seen what happens when an actual side with troops in an alliance partner's territory breaks an alliance - the two previous examples of alliance-breaking we've seen were TV, Jillian and Charlie at tBfGK, and those took place in GK territory.

Most TBS games with an alliance mechanic have a mechanism in place to prevent sides from exploiting it to position troops advantageously - usually if you break an alliance, any troops in the former ally's territory are teleported back to your territory or your nearest city.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:54 pm

Oberon wrote:It sure seems that way. And I'm wondering where the profit is in that, for TV? In any TBS game I've ever played it has been far more useful to have a single side wielding all of the resources than to have two allied sides with the resources split between them. A single side is better able to react to surprises, and can apply all of the combined resources to handle those surprises. The sole benefit I see from having two sides is that you effectively go twice in the turn, but about the time that becomes an advantage over allying and going at the same time you're already much stronger than any opposition.


That's true, but there is reason why players don't ally with AI for a long term: because the AI sucks. You can't make good plans with them, they don't use their resources as good as you, etc. But that doesn't apply to erfworld. It has a certain tactical advantage to have an partly independent ally; you can give him a certain task and let him do it in his way. faq has the advantage of being located in nearly impassable mountains, unknown to anybody except to GK and TV. Jillian would be the perfect ally to keep Jitterati and Carpodle busy with numerous raids and attacks. TV could have used that distraction to tilt their forces to the front with GK. Or they could have tried to attack Gk at two fronts; each kingdom has a chief warlord and his bonuses. But waht Don King did makes no sense to me; he strengthens Faq at the expense of his own kingdom.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby FreakyCheeseMan » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:24 pm

I'm under the impression that TV warlords are worth a lot more than the average warlord- they *all* seem to be badasses (see one of the unnamed ones at the Faq pass KOing a dwagon with a kick to the chin), they can fly naturally, and from what we've seen (Vinnie and Caeser), they may be a bit more cunning than usual, too.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:28 pm

FreakyCheeseMan wrote:I'm under the impression that TV warlords are worth a lot more than the average warlord- they *all* seem to be badasses (see one of the unnamed ones at the Faq pass KOing a dwagon with a kick to the chin), they can fly naturally, and from what we've seen (Vinnie and Caeser), they may be a bit more cunning than usual, too.

That's probably because TV's 'style' appears to be to pop a larger number of warlords than usual, and use their bonuses on massive amounts of bats instead of popping normal infantry.
This style would naturally lend itself to warlords leveling quickly, since (1) they'll never let the bat get the kill shot if they can help it and (2) they need warlords in every confrontation.
I don't think that TV's warlords are naturally better than others initially; I think TV just risks their warlords far more than other sides do, and thus they level much faster than average.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby (name here) » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:44 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
Oberon wrote:It sure seems that way. And I'm wondering where the profit is in that, for TV? In any TBS game I've ever played it has been far more useful to have a single side wielding all of the resources than to have two allied sides with the resources split between them. A single side is better able to react to surprises, and can apply all of the combined resources to handle those surprises. The sole benefit I see from having two sides is that you effectively go twice in the turn, but about the time that becomes an advantage over allying and going at the same time you're already much stronger than any opposition.


That's true, but there is reason why players don't ally with AI for a long term: because the AI sucks. You can't make good plans with them, they don't use their resources as good as you, etc. But that doesn't apply to erfworld. It has a certain tactical advantage to have an partly independent ally; you can give him a certain task and let him do it in his way. faq has the advantage of being located in nearly impassable mountains, unknown to anybody except to GK and TV. Jillian would be the perfect ally to keep Jitterati and Carpodle busy with numerous raids and attacks. TV could have used that distraction to tilt their forces to the front with GK. Or they could have tried to attack Gk at two fronts; each kingdom has a chief warlord and his bonuses. But waht Don King did makes no sense to me; he strengthens Faq at the expense of his own kingdom.


The only times I've heard of that sort of strategy being used is when:

A) The player opposes one of the combatants but doesn't want to commit to a direct fight, so they funnel money to a proxy
B) The player is prevented from direct war by an artifical limitation
C) If they controlled those resources directly bad, bad things would happen
D) Related to C, above, they're playing Crusader Kings and suffer massive penalties if they try to rule too much directly
E) They don't want either side to win, so they support whatever side happens to be losing, because either way the player loses

OR

F) The player cannot directly intervene immediately due to distance

I've done it on occasion in GalCiv, and once in Alpha Centauri in a failed effort to keep the Believers from conquering the Gaians before my expeditionary forces could arrive in strength to stabilize the front.* Maybe once or twice in similar situations, but in those cases they weren't losing as hard when I gifted the stuff and also I didn't send expeditionary forces to help out

Don't see what exactly Don King is up to, though. I do sense some sort of incredibly elaborate backstab as a possibility. It just doesn't feel quite right otherwise. Alternately, the multiple chief warlords theory may have something to it. Mind, what makes things really weird is that he isn't developing a minor ally/vassal using spare money, he's actively weakening his own empire. He could have recruited Jil on a permanent basis and claimed the city as his own, as far as I can tell. Then again, maybe barbarian warlords can't be reintegrated in the normal fashion.

The only remaining possibility is that reestablishing FAQ as an independent side improved relations with some sides we haven't seen.

LOONY THEORY: There is actually some sort of score that will determine who "wins" and reestablishing a destroyed side from a royal heir of that side is worth major points. Only Kings and Queens know about the scoreboard.


*That actually turned out all right, as my first transport load had moved forward to retake a Gaian base when the base I'd been using as a staging point fell, then retook it and held for a long time with some air support out of those two bases smashing advancing Believer forces, even retaking Gaia's Landing. Then I broke the stalemate with a Planet Buster and reckless disregard for air force losses.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Aris Katsaris » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:06 pm

Just a small example of how two allied nations in a game might be better than one big one:

In Civ IV, I was once I was invading a continent that had two separate nations, whose cities were pretty close to each other across most of the breadth of that continent.
If I completely eliminated one, I would be able to control pretty much NONE of the resources of that continent - because of the cultural influence that the other nation had (while mine in that continent was 0%), my cities would only be able to control the resources on their own individual squares -- and thus starve, plus I would have no movement bonuses through roads, etc.
So instead I conquered the first nation into SUBMISSION instead -- and gifted him back all the cities I had conquered on that continent. As such his whole cultural influence and resources that they formerly possessed were still able to be used by me -- while mere elimination would have left me in a horrible position in regards to the second enemy.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Mikalyaran » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:25 pm

Is anyone surprised at the TV battle table? It seems a lot like the tri-mancer table. How are they doing it? Bats is the obvious answer but then they would have had to have a bat in the hex across the bridge to know GW had entered it. Then we would have seen a battle. I don't think that's the sort of thing that would have been left out of an update. Veiled warlords? Nope. Could be updates via thinkamancer. It's certainly not a tri-mancer of their own. Bunny is always refered to as an individual. Any other ideas?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 003

Postby Ytaker » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:36 pm

Moving pieces across the table, probably. No need for magic.
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