Book 2 – Page 11

[Sokrotes]

YES!!! Mr. Snipe is still in the game, and my faith is restored in the story! It seems only Wanda is thinking like some of the forum people. Decrypt everything to fix every problem. Hmm can casters cast after being decrypted? lets try it. No sometimes things are better left a mystery. Anyway im going on a slight tangent and i dunno what point im trying to make, basicaly all im saying is YAY JACK IS STILL ALIVE!

[BLANDCorporatio]

YES!!! Mr. Snipe is still in the game, and my faith is restored in the story! It seems only Wanda is thinking like some of the forum people. Decrypt everything to fix every problem. Hmm can casters cast after being decrypted? lets try it. No sometimes things are better left a mystery. Anyway im going on a slight tangent and i dunno what point im trying to make, basicaly all im saying is YAY JACK IS STILL ALIVE!

Let's not go to strawmen there, shall we. "Decrypt everything to solve every problem" is not what I'm for. I'm for ranting about how decryption in itself is not evil; in this case, this means saying that whatever good reasons there are to prevent Wanda from decrypting Jack, moral concerns are not among them.

Other than that yes, let's rejoice!

[MarbitChow]

I'm for ranting about how decryption in itself is not evil; in this case, this means saying that whatever good reasons there are to prevent Wanda from decrypting Jack, moral concerns are not among them.

I agree with you in spirit. Decryption, as a whole, is only morally dubious.
Restoring someone to life is very good. Mind controlling them so that they'd die for you is evil.
Add them both together, and the act itself is very gray.
If Jack were already dead, decryption is the only option, and thus, on the whole, a good thing.

However, killing someone so that they could be decrypted absolutely is evil.

[Welf von Ehrwald]

Could it be, that elves can't be decrypted. If we don't see a Altruist or Lofty elves now, there aren't any.

I don't think Wanda wants to save a valuable scroll, she just wants to control another caster. Jetstone has a healomancer, so there is a chance to capture him. This may or may be not successful, but at the moment it is uncertain. If they catch him, GK has it's own supply of healomancy scrolls and isn't depended on the MK in that regard.

[eqdok2007]

...
The reason no one else has mentioned it is because you're mistaken. Incapacitated units croak when the turn is ended. Jack must either be healed or decrypted; simply waiting is the same as a decision to decrypt, except that he isn't available to help this turn.

No I don't think so.

Vinnie was incapacitated here with an arrow in the chest and all booped up in this update.
http://www.erfworld.com/page/17/

He got COMPLETELY better the next day... well until he got news that Transylvito was popping a new heir.

[Jjkaybomb]

I'm for ranting about how decryption in itself is not evil; in this case, this means saying that whatever good reasons there are to prevent Wanda from decrypting Jack, moral concerns are not among them.

I agree with you in spirit. Decryption, as a whole, is only morally dubious.
Restoring someone to life is very good. Mind controlling them so that they'd die for you is evil.
Add them both together, and the act itself is very gray.
If Jack were already dead, decryption is the only option, and thus, on the whole, a good thing.

However, killing someone so that they could be decrypted absolutely is evil.

I dont think it's about the mind control here, because straight mind control is clearly not what these units have. Unlike regular uncroaked, who didnt seem to have any sort of will, decrypted still clearly have thier minds intact. Ansom on the last page loudly and angrily demanded why she killed her brother. If it was straight mind control, he wouldnt even bother to question the act. That said, maybe she thinks that its like her uncroaked, where they have no mind. not like loyalty is a visible stat, and it didnt exactly matter to her before.

And also, on an earlier topic, I dont think the pragmatism of this automatically makes the act evil. Setting aside the morals of an issue for pragmitism is a cold choice, a gray choice, but definitly not an evil choice. It's compleatly necesary sometimes, like in the end of book 1 when the volcano went off. What makes this pragmatic choice evil is more like she's being selfish and power tripping thinking she can solve everything most effeciently by using the archenpliers. Like someone said earlier, she has a hammer, and she's seeing lots of nails.

[MarbitChow]

And also, on an earlier topic, I dont think the pragmatism of this automatically makes the act evil. Setting aside the morals of an issue for pragmitism is a cold choice, a gray choice, but definitly not an evil choice.

Killing someone because you don't want to 'waste' a healing scroll is evil, especially when he'll be fine next turn if they just keep him out of combat.
If Jack was absolutely required to be able to have any chance at victory, and it HAD to be done this turn, otherwise everybody dies, then yes, I could see the pragmatism of it.
That's not the case here.

[Jjkaybomb]

And also, on an earlier topic, I dont think the pragmatism of this automatically makes the act evil. Setting aside the morals of an issue for pragmitism is a cold choice, a gray choice, but definitly not an evil choice.

Killing someone because you don't want to 'waste' a healing scroll is evil, especially when he'll be fine next turn if they just keep him out of combat.
If Jack was absolutely required to be able to have any chance at victory, and it HAD to be done this turn, otherwise everybody dies, then yes, I could see the pragmatism of it.
That's not the case here.

But he's incapacitated, we're debating weither or not that would mean he was actually going to be fine next turn. Personally, I'm on the side of the fence that says he wouldnt from this comic.
And we dont know how rare those heal spells are. Maybe they're down to two and havnt been able to obtain any more for many, many weeks, making the decrypting a better choice, especially to wanda who thinks it a universal solvent. Or maybe they have a dozen, but havnt been able to get a hold of many more for a while. And then you factor in cost of said scrolls along with availability...
A lot of factors are weighing in on this issue, really, I can see how it can be regarded as pure evil, a moral event horizon, and how it can be seen otherwise.

EDIT: and reading the text update, it doesnt actually say he was "incapacitated" as the status effect. Just wounded and no reason to move around.

[SteveMB]

Could it be, that elves can't be decrypted. If we don't see a Altruist or Lofty elves now, there aren't any.

Or it could be that their position got a particularly heavy hit from the eruption, leaving them too badly roasted (like Bogroll).

[Liam]

Any one given credence to the thought that Wanda might turn? She is bound to no loyalty spell, and only worked for Tool because see was seeking to fulfill the prophecy. Which from what we know has been fulfilled (unless there is more, i.e. world domination).

If she were to flip with Jillian, that would be near apocalyptic for GK. The coalition vs. Parson.

It’s doubtful because:

Wanda is seen as evil by most.
Wanda controls Ansom
Wanda poses more to gain by staying with GK

It’s plausible because:

Wanda didn’t frag Jillian when she had the chance; b/c she loves Jillian
Wanda is not 100% loyal to GK but to Fate
Jillian has a Turnamancer – as far as magic works you can’t turn a hamster into a pitbull. Some part of the subject has to want to change.

[theseus2x]

I'm for ranting about how decryption in itself is not evil; in this case, this means saying that whatever good reasons there are to prevent Wanda from decrypting Jack, moral concerns are not among them.

I agree with you in spirit. Decryption, as a whole, is only morally dubious.
Restoring someone to life is very good. Mind controlling them so that they'd die for you is evil.
Add them both together, and the act itself is very gray.
If Jack were already dead, decryption is the only option, and thus, on the whole, a good thing.

However, killing someone so that they could be decrypted absolutely is evil.

Intentionally killing them so you can decrypt them just to save a few schmuckers on healing scrolls is not in the "gray" area.

[robak]

Let's ask the man himself:
> Hey Jack, would you like a healing potion or being decrypted?
Jack: I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than...
a Frontal Lobotomy



(I know it's a scroll not a potion)

[BLANDCorporatio]

robak, lol

Intentionally killing them so you can decrypt them just to save a few schmuckers on healing scrolls is not in the "gray" area.

"Intentionally killing them so that you can decrypt them" is, paradoxically, not killing them. Not murder.

And it's not necessarily just to save a few schmuckers; availability of healing scrolls, coupled with the fact that Wanda is the one unit that's awkward to decrypt, is what makes this morally gray.

Of course, it could be that Jack would get better next turn no matter what, or that GK still has 100 healing scrolls even if they can't buy any others right now, which would paint a different picture ... So argue that Jack doesn't need urgent healing, or that GK still has healomancy to spare. Not that Wanda's evil just because she wants to do surgery on Jack.

[theseus2x]

Wanda poses more to gain by staying with GK

For now. A split is inevitable. Even Stanley realizes that Wanda has gotten far too independent.

It’s plausible because:

Wanda didn’t frag Jillian when she had the chance; b/c she loves Jillian

Not sure about that. It looked like Wanda zapped the air party with everything she could. Its simply some of the units (Jillian, Vinnie, most of the Archons) didn't take enough damage to croak.

Wanda is not 100% loyal to GK but to Fate

Wanda is 0% loyal to GK. She is 100% temporarily allied with GK because its given her a good support structure. She will drop them (meaning gack Stanley) as soon as they are no longer convenient.

Jillian has a Turnamancer – as far as magic works you can’t turn a hamster into a pitbull. Some part of the subject has to want to change.

Well... Wanda doesn't WANT to be with Stanley; she simply finds him convenient atm. So possible.....

[theseus2x]

robak, lol

Intentionally killing them so you can decrypt them just to save a few schmuckers on healing scrolls is not in the "gray" area.

"Intentionally killing them so that you can decrypt them" is, paradoxically, not killing them. Not murder.

And it's not necessarily just to save a few schmuckers; availability of healing scrolls, coupled with the fact that Wanda is the one unit that's awkward to decrypt, is what makes this morally gray.

Of course, it could be that Jack would get better next turn no matter what, or that GK still has 100 healing scrolls even if they can't buy any others right now, which would paint a different picture ... So argue that Jack doesn't need urgent healing, or that GK still has healomancy to spare. Not that Wanda's evil just because she wants to do surgery on Jack.

Dunno about that. Killing someone so you can decrypt them? Parson put it better than I....

And okay, the supply of healing scrolls is finite. How many units are honestly critical to GK's success? They aren't saving the scrolls for the Decrypted Marbits, people.

My point is, Jack is worth it.

[Jjkaybomb]

Wanda is not 100% loyal to GK but to Fate

Wanda is 0% loyal to GK. She is 100% temporarily allied with GK because its given her a good support structure. She will drop them (meaning gack Stanley) as soon as they are no longer convenient.

Or more like she'll break the alliance when she can get Parson to be compleatly loyal to her, or compleatly out of the picture and unable to do anything. Maybe even kill and decrypt Parson to ensure he's on her side before she herself creates one.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Dunno about that. Killing someone so you can decrypt them? Parson put it better than I....

Parson knows boop.

here on Earth, we have surgeons cutting people up removing chunks of liver, stomach, even half the brain in case of a girl with epileptic seisures. Opening up the chest cavity leaves the patient requiring months of painful recovery. How come we don't charge ALL surgeons with Aggravated Assault and Causing Grievious Bodily Harm?

You could say, because the patient consented to the operation, but sometimes the patient is brought in a state where they can't express consent. This is then deferred to living wills (new, rare), relatives and loved ones, or indeed for life-threatening emergencies a procedure is just carried out because it's the right thing to do.

So yeah. Parson talks from his gut, and we know where that goes.

And okay, the supply of healing scrolls is finite. How many units are honestly critical to GK's success? They aren't saving the scrolls for the Decrypted Marbits, people.

That's straw and you know it. They're saving them, if they are, for Wanda.

[Gez]

...
The reason no one else has mentioned it is because you're mistaken. Incapacitated units croak when the turn is ended. Jack must either be healed or decrypted; simply waiting is the same as a decision to decrypt, except that he isn't available to help this turn.

No I don't think so.

Vinnie was incapacitated here with an arrow in the chest and all booped up in this update.
http://www.erfworld.com/page/17/

He got COMPLETELY better the next day... well until he got news that Transylvito was popping a new heir.

When posting links, please click on the title first to obtain the permanent link.

http://www.erfworld.com/2009/10/summer-updates-047/
Because what's on page 17 now will be on page 18 after the next update, then page 19, 20, etc. It's something that I find extremely annoying with Wordpress, but it's there.

Alternatively, link to the copy of the update on the Wiki.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/First_Intermission_47
That too is a permanent link.

[Katana]

Just got caught up...The new text is brilliant rob. I'm enjoying the art as well...was there some formal write up on the change of artist? or was it just something that had to be done/
Anyway, thanks for the efforts you two.

C. Thayer Donnelly

[teratorn]

Could it be, that elves can't be decrypted. If we don't see a Altruist or Lofty elves now, there aren't any.

Or it could be that their position got a particularly heavy hit from the eruption, leaving them too badly roasted (like Bogroll).

I suppose they could have been where the lava lake is by now. The "natural" allies thing probably doesn't matter, for marbits can be uncroaked and as such probably decrypted also. Either they all fell on the lava lake or it's possible that elves can't be uncroaked/decrypted. A race that can't be decrypted would make a good foe for GK.