Book 2 - Text Updates 004

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Rogthnor01 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:16 pm

And then Saline is betrayed and killed. All all the other royals are saying that Stanley is bad and should be croaked! They're rejecting the will of their own fellow Royal, the late King Saline! They are the betrayers, they are the ones that are wrong, because Stanley is a good unit, and it's a Royal, King Saline, who said so! So it's true! Stanley even has attuned an Arkentool, so even the Titans say so! Those stupid Royals are disrespecting Saline and the Titans!
You sir are obviously stanley. how else could you imitate him so well
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby noxharrington » Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:32 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
DivineDragoonKain wrote:Erfworld is more than a game, people. It's an actual, breathing, living world (in context of the story) that just happens to have game-like mechanics replacing a little biology, physics, and laws of nature...

I agree. I think it is more likely that 'natural thinkamancy' is a result of Erfworlders' view of their universe, rather than a real 'mechanic'.
Since there are some stats that Erfworlders can see, and those stats definitely control events, they extrapolate that there must be stats that they don't see as well.
...
The interesting question is whether any given stat that an Erfworld refers to is just a description, or an actual limiting or enabling force.
Take levels, for example: is a level an indication that the unit's fighting skill has increased, or does the act of gaining a level actually increase their fighting skills?


So you're saying that an almost-Level 9 warlord would have an almost-identical leadership bonus to a low-level 10 warlord? Because the Erfworlders assign numbers to how effectively their warlords multiply the power of their subservient troops, and then call it "Leadership?" Or, maybe a unit who is expecting their Move to increase on their next level (we don't know whether this can happen, but work with me) has been working hard on their sprinting training and now discovers that they can get aaaaalmost to the other edge of the hex they reach, so then when they level it's just a matter of crossing that finish line before Turn ends? Could a unit get really good at one thing, neglecting to train in anything else, and level up only one of their attributes? What if they never killed another unit? That's probably why Bogroll leveled twice, and then died, after killing a high-level unit - all that exercise paid off, instantly, coincidentally, and in a moment that would completely throw us off the trail you've discovered.

No way, man. Levels are levels. Because Erfworld might not be a game... but it's a whole lot like a game.

Book 2 – Text Updates 004 wrote:Tribes have no purse and keep no Schmuckers. When they are in an alliance, their allied side pops rations for them from its treasury. But a feral tribe must hunt or gather or farm or mine.

If they are given Schmuckers, the tribe must convert it all to new or promoted units or popped rations or equipment on the next turn.


For me this raises a lot of questions about the way Shmuckers work. If all of these practices work the same, this you can kill a feral unit, harvest a crop, find a valuable gem or other item, and then convert it into Shmuckers of equivalent value, then turn those Shmuckers into whatever you wanted (natural Moneymancy? Is this explained anywhere?). I wonder whether, while mining yields cash and can be turned into anything, maybe hunting and farming can give you only rations. Or, if you're farming a particularly valuable crop (do they even have different crops? Maybe farms produce only Shmuckers) maybe you get to pick from a wider range of rations than other farmers... or bigger farm units... speculation.

But, moreover, this is a DEEPLY crappy situation for Tribes. If they find a gem, they must spend all of the shmuckers it yields immediately. So, if they find a gem that's worth enough to keep them fed for twenty turns, they would need to pop enough food for their current population and however many other units they could afford - and then have nothing with which to feed those units on the next turn. They would need to find a gem every turn - and, preferrably, not one that was too valuable, or they'd end up with an unsustainable population.
Farmers, likewise, would need to harvest every turn.
Hunters would either need to keep moving or hope to find a hex that pops feral prey every turn.
Without a way to retain resources from one turn to the next, these Tribes are at huge risk of starving to death EVERY TURN, and I am not surprised AT ALL that

Book 2 – Text Updates 004 wrote:A tribe prefers to stay with their allied side for good, if the side allows it.


Just getting to use a purse does wonders for the potential longevity of a Tribe.

As far as the controversy over who made the Gobwins revolt against Saline: we don't know, but I'd be shocked to find that Stanley had the wit to conceal his involvement for this long. I also think signs are pointing strongly toward Charlie's involvement, though I don't get his motivation and those signs could be red herrings.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:10 pm

They've described this before. Gems are portable and require someone to convert them into Schmuckers. Finding a gem doesn't mean the tribe has to spend it immediately, because it's not in the form of Schmuckers.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby KaosAfflicted » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:50 pm

Has anyone noticed how Parson has changed? He looks more brooding and way cooler than in book 1. I like the picture of him in this update, it really captures the essence of him thinking about the information he just acquired.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby noxharrington » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:53 pm

Sonic Screwdriver wrote:They've described this before. Gems are portable and require someone to convert them into Schmuckers. Finding a gem doesn't mean the tribe has to spend it immediately, because it's not in the form of Schmuckers.


Oh, interesting - where is this explained?

So, the problem is easier to deal with, but still the same problem. They can hold onto gems, but as soon as they are converted to Shmuckers they must be spent immediately. Unless you can turn gems into Shmuckers one bit at a time... like, extracting a certain Shmucker value from each gem.
Who turns them into Shmuckers?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby MarbitChow » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:00 pm

noxharrington wrote:Or, maybe a unit who is expecting their Move to increase on their next level (we don't know whether this can happen, but work with me) has been working hard on their sprinting training and now discovers that they can get aaaaalmost to the other edge of the hex they reach, so then when they level it's just a matter of crossing that finish line before Turn ends?

I think it's clear that there are stats (such as move) that the world enforces.
It doesn't matter how long they march - the barrier won't let them pass when they've exhausted their move.

So how does the physics work? Does the newly-leveled unit suddenly know more?
Is there something controlling physics so that their sword hits the right spot more often?
Or does the world instead impose misses on them when they should have hit if they're too low level?

Are there elements of the world that Erfworlders assume are governed by stats that really aren't?
How do hits work, really? How do other stats work?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby DoctorJest » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:04 pm

noxharrington wrote:
Sonic Screwdriver wrote:They've described this before. Gems are portable and require someone to convert them into Schmuckers. Finding a gem doesn't mean the tribe has to spend it immediately, because it's not in the form of Schmuckers.


Oh, interesting - where is this explained?

So, the problem is easier to deal with, but still the same problem. They can hold onto gems, but as soon as they are converted to Shmuckers they must be spent immediately. Unless you can turn gems into Shmuckers one bit at a time... like, extracting a certain Shmucker value from each gem.
Who turns them into Shmuckers?


It's probably not a who, but a what. The Treasury of a side converts gems into Schmuckers automagically as needed, just like Slaughterhouses increase the food production. Until their value is "spent" they probably just sit there.

It might be possible to spend a certain value of a gem, thus converting it to a smaller, less valuable gem, but that's highly speculative.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby build6 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:27 pm

Infidel wrote:It's good to see Parson is still investigating the passing of King Saline IV.


this text update seems to me partially a set up to point at the Big Mystery of What Happened To Saline IV ...

SurvivorX wrote:Since Chiefs can lie, is it possible that the Hobgobwins did betray GK on their own, and then just told everybody "Charlie made us do it"? Perhaps, is that the lie that he's telling Parson?


the "take away" I have is not that chief's can lie per se, but that it's possible to lie to one of your own warlords... it's a bit like the problem Parson has :-P, I don't know what is or is not possible in erfworld. I mean, lyin' just comes nat'rally in The Real World, no? But in erfworld ... lotsa freedoms don't seem to exist
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:33 pm

theseus2x wrote:
GobwinPie wrote:3) Does the answer to #2 have anything to do with why there are no Gobwin at Gobwin Knob?


Tough to fathom that. Remember Vurp wasn't even at GK when the volcano erupted. When he came back, he was all alone.


Right. The lack of gobwins at Gobwin Knob is due mostly to Parson having croaked them all, which Vurp was not involved in.

However, there remains the question of why no new gobwins have been found. I blame Charlie for that. If he hired a Luckamancer and made all of GK's gobwin-or-marbit rolls go "marbit" that would explain it.

What I can't figure out is WHY. It seems an expensive gambit for little gain, no matter who is doing it. Maybe whoever is doing it didn't count on the dwagon relay allowing Sizemore to be in multiple cities each turn. Tying up the Dirtmancer with mining (I assume Sizemore is the only unit that can mine all those gems, besides gobwins) might be a reasonable goal if the cost of a Luckamancer were low enough.

Seems somewhat silly to me though, still.

BUT - If Charle was involved with the Saline uprising, and Vurp knows about that, maybe Vurp can put 2 and 2 together?


I very much doubt Charlie was involved in Saline IV's death. I think Wanda has her own star to follow in that regard. Remember when Wanda mind-controlled that guard into forgetting everything he heard during Jillian's torture? And of course Jillian got enspelled by Wanda too. So Wanda is capable of pulling something like this off on her own, and looks to me like she still has the tools that she used to do it with laying around.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby noxharrington » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:47 pm

DoctorJest wrote:It's probably not a who, but a what. The Treasury of a side converts gems into Schmuckers automagically as needed, just like Slaughterhouses increase the food production. Until their value is "spent" they probably just sit there.

It might be possible to spend a certain value of a gem, thus converting it to a smaller, less valuable gem, but that's highly speculative.


Right, so my question is, do Tribes have a treasury? If not, how do they turn gems into Shmuckers into food? CAN they convert only SOME of a hunted animal into ration-popping Shmuckers per turn (or gems or crops or whatever they're using to gain Shmuckers) or do they need to turn the whole thing? Because they loose all Shmuckers at the end of the turn, but maybe they can hold onto unconverted gems and crops and whatnot.

gameboy1234 wrote:I very much doubt Charlie was involved in Saline IV's death. I think Wanda has her own star to follow in that regard. Remember when Wanda mind-controlled that guard into forgetting everything he heard during Jillian's torture? And of course Jillian got enspelled by Wanda too. So Wanda is capable of pulling something like this off on her own, and looks to me like she still has the tools that she used to do it with laying around.


I think we've been given many hints that Charlie is involved in the turning of these natural allies. Again, they might be red herrings, but it seems like that has been indicated.
Also, I don't think Wanda is capable of causing a large number of natural allies (with every survival reason to stay allied) to turn. She's pretty fair with a mind control spell, but not perfect, and that's a really big change in a large number of units. She would have needed help, at least.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby teratorn » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:01 pm

Faq must have been sacked before king saline was croaked. Wanda says Stanley was a simple warlord, if Saline had been croaked by then Stanley would have been the overlord.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:34 pm

noxharrington wrote:
Sonic Screwdriver wrote:They've described this before. Gems are portable and require someone to convert them into Schmuckers. Finding a gem doesn't mean the tribe has to spend it immediately, because it's not in the form of Schmuckers.


Oh, interesting - where is this explained?

So, the problem is easier to deal with, but still the same problem. They can hold onto gems, but as soon as they are converted to Shmuckers they must be spent immediately. Unless you can turn gems into Shmuckers one bit at a time... like, extracting a certain Shmucker value from each gem.
Who turns them into Shmuckers?


Overlords, I believe. I think this was explained in one of the summer updates. However I can't find any summer updates without illustrations, and I think the explanation was in one without. However, the basics of it is that Overlords have natural Moneymancy that lets them turn gems into Schmuckers for the Treasurey. Moneymancers can turn Schmukers back into gems, for a small fee, and the money is more transportable in that form.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:37 pm

noxharrington wrote:I think we've been given many hints that Charlie is involved in the turning of these natural allies.



I see what you're saying, but Charlie was highly motivated to assist Jillian. I just think there's other ways of turning a unit -- Turnamancy (Vana), Suggestion spells, Thinkmancy, etc. Wanda or anyone else could have used one of those methods, esp. with scrolls it's hard to pin down who it could be.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Wisp Wings » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:57 pm

With all the theorys about Wanda doing, you have to consider what Vurp said- natural allies tend to try stay with a side forever. Vurp obviously has a very strong commitment to Stanley. The question is what could have been motivation for a coup? With what charlie did to Jitterati (or what ever it's called) it sounds like it could have just been a very strong loyalty changing spell on just the leader (and as all other units know the will of the leader...). The spell would just have to be very strong- if 100 represented the highest loyalty and -100 represented the losest loyalty, it porbably would have had to have made a 150 point change. The coup may have been started like this- Stanley and the casters are out of the city with the hobgobiwn and gobwin chief. One of the casters gets Stanley reved up about the king. If the hobgobwin and gobwin are loyal enough to him (due to them fighting together or something) the negitivity may be spread from Stanley, to the Chiefs, to all the other units. Rebelion time!
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby mastigo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:35 pm

theseus2x wrote:
Zeku wrote:Wow, you all missed it. That hobgobwin doesn't have the wit to even imagine a lie into existence. It's Wanda again. She even spelled it out at the end of Book 1, trusting Parson's naivete to not translate her admission of wanton destruction in the most negative possible light. It was an inoculating dosage of honesty, to keep him oblivious. Jillian is heavily implicated in all of this, as well. Wanda might be the predictamancer of the prophecy. Wanda might be the creator of the summoning spell.

And, Wanda is the Final Boss. Leaving Parson alive is a horrifying tactical blunder. I'm not saying I could have manufactured the victories that Wanda has so far, but I would have at least had the good sense to destroy the only threat to my supremacy at the earliest possible convenience.


Nice conspiracy theory. The only evidence I can find to the contrary is that if Wanda was that badass on her own, she would have found a more efficient solution at various points (like when she was incapacitated).

But yes - Its very plausible Wanda's death will be the climax of the entire story.

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Hobgobwin » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:50 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:However, there remains the question of why no new gobwins have been found. I blame Charlie for that. If he hired a Luckamancer and made all of GK's gobwin-or-marbit rolls go "marbit" that would explain it.


The prediction could have been wrong based on its wording. What if the decrypted were finding gobwins, but they were killing them to consolidate their Master's power? Gobwin troops wouldd answer to Stanley, not Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Gez » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:53 pm

teratorn wrote:Faq must have been sacked before king saline was croaked. Wanda says Stanley was a simple warlord, if Saline had been croaked by then Stanley would have been the overlord.

And during the Gobwin Mutiny, Stanley was already more than a simple warlord: he was Saline's Chief Warlord (panel 3).
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Moik » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:56 pm

Janis made the Gobwins rebel.

She was trying to break war.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby theseus2x » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:58 pm

KaosAfflicted wrote:Has anyone noticed how Parson has changed? He looks more brooding and way cooler than in book 1. I like the picture of him in this update, it really captures the essence of him thinking about the information he just acquired.


During the summer updates, they mentioned his legs were getting trimmer. (Prior, Hamstard had described them as a couple of condoms overstuffed with Ricotta cheese. :P )
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby theseus2x » Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:59 pm

Hobgobwin wrote:
gameboy1234 wrote:However, there remains the question of why no new gobwins have been found. I blame Charlie for that. If he hired a Luckamancer and made all of GK's gobwin-or-marbit rolls go "marbit" that would explain it.


The prediction could have been wrong based on its wording. What if the decrypted were finding gobwins, but they were killing them to consolidate their Master's power? Gobwin troops wouldd answer to Stanley, not Wanda.


Most predictions / prophecies are entirely dependent on the interpretations of the listener.
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