Book 2 - Text Updates 004

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby TheMutant » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:53 pm

I'm still convinced, personally, that Charlie is the one behind the Gobwin coup, between the Jitterati gambit and his likely involvement in the Gobwin disappearances. I concur with an earlier poster that Stanley doesn't have the wit or control to have avoided giving away his involvement for so long if he was responsible, and Wanda just strikes me as unlikely for some reason- can't put my finger on it, though.
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Sixty wrote:Obviously the mystery caster has no particular feelings one way or the other about Parson, he simply heard "cue the Benny Hill music" and gave chase, compelled to do so by forces outside his control.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby noxharrington » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:01 pm

TheMutant wrote:I'm still convinced, personally, that Charlie is the one behind the Gobwin coup, between the Jitterati gambit and his likely involvement in the Gobwin disappearances. I concur with an earlier poster that Stanley doesn't have the wit or control to have avoided giving away his involvement for so long if he was responsible, and Wanda just strikes me as unlikely for some reason- can't put my finger on it, though.


It seems like Charlie is motivated by Shmuckers second only to his own advancement, so certainly anyone could have paid him to do whatever it is he did to overthrow Saline.
It could have been Wanda who paid him... for sure... but I agree. It doesn't feel right, right now. Maybe more will be revealed, but I wouldn't understand that move, personally. Unless Saline was a pacifist or truly, truly stupid, why would the Tool be preferable to serve under? Assuming she was even serving at that time. I guess she might have gotten the gobwins to rebel, thinking Stanley was in GK, hoping to grab the Hammer - but would she have had the resources necessary to do that?
To me, this business with the natural allies turning or not popping has got to be part of some grander plan. That plan probably involves Wanda, but I'd be very surprised if Wanda were the sole mastermind.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby DevilDan » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:33 pm

Just. Awesome.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby BenH » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:38 pm

Brilliantly written.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby AL_Lagarto » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:41 pm

A possible motivation for Charlie to keep GK gobwin-free is to keep them as weak as possible in tunnel-capable units. Stanley can fill the skies with dwagons and Wanda's Stack O' Doom make an air or ground assault suicidal with Parson as military advisor, even with those remaining calculations in his pocket and no matter the odds. Charlie may have reached the decision that a subterranean assault is the best bet for an assault on the city itself, and is scheming to create a situation as favorable as possible in this regard - Faq and others to pose a credible theat-in-being in the skies and on the ground, and then go for the home run with the largest assault possible on the tunnels. Without gobwins, Sizemore and golems are the main defense line in the tunnels - and if they're quick enough they can overrun him before he can retreat to form a trimancer link. No Dirtamancer, no volcanic kablooie.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby DoctorJest » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:46 pm

noxharrington wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:It's probably not a who, but a what. The Treasury of a side converts gems into Schmuckers automagically as needed, just like Slaughterhouses increase the food production. Until their value is "spent" they probably just sit there.

It might be possible to spend a certain value of a gem, thus converting it to a smaller, less valuable gem, but that's highly speculative.


Right, so my question is, do Tribes have a treasury? If not, how do they turn gems into Shmuckers into food?


I think they Hunt for Food Rations and Mine for Equipment, and do not have a treasury.

CAN they convert only SOME of a hunted animal into ration-popping Shmuckers per turn


Actually I think they bypass Schmuckers and go from hunted animals to rations directly, on account of having no purse.
Similarly they go from mined gems to equipment directly. They do not make or keep Schmuckers. If given schmuckers, they have to spend them immediately.

I don't think they can just store gems "unused". They use em or lose em.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby simkin » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:49 pm

Do we know if it's possible for an overlord/king/leader of their side to step down willingly (not surrendering)? I say King Saline was never betrayed or killed. He just ordered his natural allies to make it look that way. Maybe GW used to have a pridictamancer too that suggested he do it.... or those damn hippies :roll:

also, nice update. The art started off great and seems to be improving quickly. The text updates as well.

also, I'm guessing this means we now know that if a natural side is reduced to 1 then they are automatically promoted and can restart their side without a problem? but a complete side must have an heir AND a city...also, are their natural thinkamancy powers different?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Leszek » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:10 pm

Nice way of showing Vurp's thought process, reminded me a lot of the protagonist/narrator in "The curious incident of the dog in the night-time".
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Lamech » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:44 pm

This is interesting. It appears that the hobgobs won't be leaving Stanley anytime soon. But why did they betray Saline then? Do not all natural allies agree on key issues like that? I wonder if it would be possible to capture a team of marbits and try to find one that disagrees, with the rest about hobgobwins and alliances. I also wonder if it would be possible to exploit the chiefs of the natural tribes and have them project their will to communicate.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby fractal » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:33 am

We also see why natural allies are so happy to ally. Gobwins mining for a side with a treasury may be far more efficient than a Gobwin tribe by itself, even if their ally keeps most of the schmuckers earned. It is possible, though, that rations can be accumulated? So one bad turn may not mean death.

I guess it's also possible that units do not starve in a single turn. There may be a steady process of getting weaker as food is not eaten, so there is time for a tribe or dwagon to find food before it's too late.

I can't remember, have they said if natural allies have warlords or not? (We know that barbarians can.) If they don't, do chiefs get leadership? Could Vurp avoid attacking non-allied sides for long enough to agree to an alliance, if he were not already allied with GK?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby noxharrington » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:12 am

EDIT: Sorry, posting error...
Last edited by noxharrington on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby noxharrington » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:13 am

fractal wrote:We also see why natural allies are so happy to ally. Gobwins mining for a side with a treasury may be far more efficient than a Gobwin tribe by itself, even if their ally keeps most of the schmuckers earned. It is possible, though, that rations can be accumulated? So one bad turn may not mean death.

I guess it's also possible that units do not starve in a single turn. There may be a steady process of getting weaker as food is not eaten, so there is time for a tribe or dwagon to find food before it's too late.


Good questions. Do units need to bring rations when they are away from a city? Do their rations pop no matter where they are as long as their upkeep is paid?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Almaseti » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:26 am

Personally, I think that Charlie couldn't possibly have been involved because Stanley's actions (taking a bunch of casters out of the city for no apparent reason) are just too convenient for him not to have had something to do with Saline's death, and Stanley hates and won't work with Charlie, even when GK was about to be invaded by the RCCI. Remember how pissed Parson was when he realized that he could have had an ally when the RCCI was bearing down on them? Why would Stanley hold a grudge against someone who helped him get where he was?

The anti-Royal thing also makes it sound like Stanley wasn't that crazy about Saline. This was before Parson's snark inspired the whole "Tool of the Titans" dogma GK has now, so the only reason I can see for Stanley being anti-Royal is that he really disliked Saline, even if Saline liked him.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby GobwinPie » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:02 am

Angband wrote:But, look at Strip 147. The sacking of Faq appears to happen relatively soon after Stanley found the Arkenhammer (note that Stanley is shown attuning, and is still trying out different battle cries as he flies towards the capital.) If Stanley won a lot of battles before being made Heir Designate, it is likely that some of those battles included sacking Faq. Furthermore, Wanda referred to him as a Warlord, and not an Overlord, when she conspired for him to attack Faq.

Overall, I think it is MUCH more likely that Wanda and Jack had already been captured by Gobwin Knob before Stanley became overlord.


I think your logic here is pretty impeccable. That does make Wanda a possible suspect for causing the Gobwins to turn on King Saline IV. And if anyone needs a motive, then having a dumb, easily plied Overlord instead of whatever kind of man the King was is good enough to my mind. After all, Wanda has hinted that there were many terrible things she'd done on the road to gaining the Arkenpliers.

build6 wrote:the "take away" I have is not that chief's can lie per se, but that it's possible to lie to one of your own warlords... it's a bit like the problem Parson has :-P, I don't know what is or is not possible in erfworld. I mean, lyin' just comes nat'rally in The Real World, no? But in erfworld ... lotsa freedoms don't seem to exist


Well, it's possible to lie to the warlord of an ally anyway. I can't recall if we've ever seen a GK unit proper lie to Parson, though we have seen them omit information before. (At least Wanda has anyway.)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:50 am

Hmmm. Just reread the text update.

Which says that if a tribe is given schmuckers, it must spend them next turn on units, promotion, rations or equipment.

So...what would turn an allied tribe from their allied side? Schmuckers, or promises of better times?

For instance, if Charlie bought the Gobwins away from GK, did he pay them schmuckers? If so, is there a large army of gobwins that were popped with the schmuckers?

Did Charlie pay the giants in schmuckers to betray their side? What did they buy, I wonder?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby joosy » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:39 am

Most of the speculation here about the natural allies/treasury/etc. has already been answered in previous posts and in the wiki, I believe.

Natural sides can convert schmuckers into units or rations using 'natural' moneymancy. Gems are physical objects that can be converted into schmuckers via moneymancy - usually the 'natural' kind possessed by a ruler of a royal or natural side.

Ergo, Gems can probably be kept by a naturall ally until they are converted. However, once those gems are converted into schmuckers then the treasury must be used before next turn. I believe it requires a Moneymancer to turn schmuckers back into gems. Converting schmuckers into rations or equipment is an option over creating new units. I believe rations can keep for several turns and equipment lasts forever, I believe.

A natural ally has loyalty to a new side. Loyalty can be affected by Thinkamancy. Based on what we saw with the giants and Jitterati as well as Parson's percentages it is a good bet that Charlie and the Arkendish (which involves Thinkamancy) are behind the missing Gobwin Gambit.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Sixty » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:14 am

Like someone mentioned earlier, if the special mission that Stanley was on when the gobwins and hobgobwins turned was to attack FAQ then at that point he was Chief Warlord (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg) and possibly the Heir Designate. If Wanda did engineer it then she might have gone into it thinking that she was gonna cause Stanley to disband. That depends on her not knowing Stanley was the heir which we don't know.

Granted that theory also depends on the "special mission" being to attack FAQ so this is by no means conclusive, but it does seem like a possibility. (Does anyone think that might be Lord Manpower in panel 7 of the page I linked to?)
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Sokrotes » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:07 am

So ive looked at this page http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg a few times in this thread and its got me thinking.
I was thinking about the units in Gobwin Knob. It seems to me that GK used to have men, given Lord manpower, Leeroy Jenkins, and the other uncroaked warlords before Parson. But now they only pop Hobgowbins and Trolls while they gather decrypted and dwagons. They no longer make men, yet Stanley is from the Plaid tribe of men. My question is, why did Stanley stop making men? On the balcony in that page where Saline is being cut down theres another person up there with a sword pointed at him, who is he? maybe Salines personal body guard, maybe a man version of Bogroll, maybe another caster? im sure im gonna spark a new discussion if anyone reads this question lol. But anyway my first theory, Stanley promised the Gobwin and hobgowbins tribes that he would only pop there kind in exchange for making him Overlord... yay another conspiracy theory...
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby Gez » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:43 am

Sokrotes wrote:So ive looked at this page http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F079.jpg a few times in this thread and its got me thinking.
I was thinking about the units in Gobwin Knob. It seems to me that GK used to have men, given Lord manpower, Leeroy Jenkins, and the other uncroaked warlords before Parson.

Page 5: "There are fewer than 200 living men among our forces."

So that's your pre-BfGK rooster estimate.
They are, along with the gobwin and hobgobwin troops, divided among the various stabber, piker, archer and spidew cavalry units.

Stanley probably estimates that, between the horde of uncroaked (who are, mostly, infantry) and the hobgobwin troops, his production priority should be dwagons and heavies. He might resume the popping of Plaid tribesmen once he estimates he needs more warlords and infantry.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 004

Postby asparagus » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:32 am

Gez wrote:He might resume the popping of Plaid tribesmen once he estimates he needs more warlords and infantry.


He might also have the option of popping "Earthworlders", though I cannot see Stanley getting too excited at that thought.
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