Book 2 – Text Updates 006

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Menas » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:23 pm

ErfNch wrote:
... sad thing is you precisely deleted my "leap to conclusion" out of the quote :



"It's a 'Jump to Conclusions' mat... you see, this mat will have different 'conclusions' on it that you can 'jump' to."
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Angband » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:30 pm

Calemyr wrote:I'm not saying it isn't Vanna, I'm saying that there is insufficient evidence to support the theory's preeminence. All that supports it is the fact that the character exists in her faction and it would be a valid joke. That's enough to make it a worthy theory to state, but not enough to dismiss all others that rival it.


I'm not saying it 100% has to be Vanna, I'm saying that that caster being Vanna is the only theory with any in-canon evidence to support it. Which I would say makes it much more likely than any other theory -- and certainly doesn't give it the 65% odds against that you posited.

Yes, there are other theoretically possibilities, but there's no evidence to justify thinking the other theories "rival" it at all.

Calemyr wrote:Edit: As for the narrative consistency argument, that one is really rather simple. That point wasn't made in favor of a Faq-born caster, it was made against Vanna. Jillian isn't thinking of the Caster in the same way she thought of Vanna. Whoever this Caster is, it hasn't proven itself to her, hasn't become personal to her yet. Maybe it's a Faq special, maybe it's another Merc hired for Charlie's plan. Either way, there is a wall in Jillian's mind that isn't there when she thinks of Vanna.


Narrative consistency argues against a Faq-born caster much more than it argues against it being Vanna. There was very little time between the mention of Faq's failure to pop a caster and Jillian leaving for Spacerock. When you factor in Faq's severe cash flow problem (requiring schmucker infusions from both Transylvito and Charlescomm to even be able to support one caster) it's very hard to see when or how Faq could have managed to pop or hire another caster.

The caster being Vanna is narratively consistent -- it is also narratively sufficient. A second caster is theoretically possible but hugely unlikely.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby raphfrk » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:55 pm

Krennson wrote:Also, Stanley might have been able to found faq before the end of his turn, possibly giving him a city BEFORE the bill came due for unit support at the end of turn.


Maybe he could have "released" the dwagons, so they became wild again (assuming the never attack the hammer holder). Similarly, the hobgobwins are a separate tribe, thus he could release them too (in any case he doesn't need to pay their upkeep).

The effect would be that he would just need to cover himself and Jack during construction. He could then re-tame the dwagons and re-ally with the hobgobwins.

Also, if he took some gems, he would be able to convert them into money (and to keep the hobgobwins loyal).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:01 pm

Gez wrote:But then she wouldn't be an arrogant witch overconfident in her glorious Titan-given powers.


Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. It was very in-character for her to do that. The reason I'm calling coup here is because everyone sided against me on that point.

Rogerborg wrote:Show, don't tell.


You could skip the text updates if you don't like them. They are meant to be relevant, but not spoil the main plot. Filler. Mostly, it is background info, which might not interest many people. And when Book 2 is made, somehow, I don't think the text updates will be a part of it. It's more a bone Rob throws us regulars for clicking refresh more than 20 times a day.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:07 pm

Dues Ex Machina (says Wikipedia)- "is a plot device in which a person, group, or thing appears suddenly, and at the exactly appropriate moment, in order to conveniently and unexpectedly help a character overcome a previously believed insolvable difficulty."
The usage is not incorrect, even if your Princess Bride references would otherwise be cute. Nor does the build up of background info vis Charlie and Jillian make it not a Duex Ex Machina, and since you're confused, I'll explain why. As you may know, the term originates from ancient Greek theatre, when at the end a god would usually come and resolve everyone's problems. Now, this wasn't a surprise, everyone watching the plays knew this usually happened... indeed, everyone knew who the Gods were, and that they were prone to interfere in the affairs of mortals. The reason it sucked was because it was often a wholly unsatisfying resolution to the plot, which allowed the pre-established world of the play, and it's rules, to be ignored. That is exactly what looks to be a few pages away. Why?

1) Yes, we know Charlie wants to be involved, but we also know everyone is hostile to him, every nearby kingdom in fact.
2) Everyone, including the coalition will be on the lookout for veils, not least of all because GK has a foolmancer. In order to sneak GK's dwagon army in, they had to disguise it as a regular army, and fair enough. But what we apepar to be getting set up for is a literal "Archons invisibly snuck up to Spacerock, and are there now". If the plot doesn't go this way, all for the good, but I feel that's where it is headed. You have to wonder why GK wouldn't do this with massive forces if it's possible.
3) Especially because Jack is a master class foolmancer. A few replies I see try to tone him down, but so far we have him veiling whole cities from hostiles for years (however many turns that is, over 700 it seems), to the point nobody knew they existed. The reaction to his abilities from respected warlords like Caesar was complete incredulity. He's been very impressive to date, and it's really unlikely there is an Archon equivalent as good or better. Let alone lots of them.
4) If the Archons aren't in the battle space, then they're basically useless. So either the story is headed in a very different way, of they are somehow hidden in the battle space of Spacerock, and none of Jetstone's many warlords has noticed them at all, despite the fact that foolmancy needs to leave traces. Absurd.
5) The explanations for how they could have entered the battlespace without alerting others to their presence via the turn system are wholly unsatisfying. Jillian added them to the alliance without telling anyone? WTF? What authority does she have to do that? It also seems complete ridiculous. They don't use a turn? That's false, we saw in book 1.

Most importantly, the action from here on is likely to be silly, though I'll reserve judgement until I see it, because Jack, the archons, etc, should all pick up on the army of Archons before they get too close. This is a problem because if the Archons are overwhelming and can beat GK, then GK will be able to retreat, and can't be followed. If the Archons are weak enough that GK can beat them and Jillian, then it'll be a good fight to read, but bizarrely poor planning on Charlie and Jillian's part (plus, an even fight seems unlikely for a 24(?) page book, when we are 12 pages in).

To summarise; I have no problem with Charlie and TV having troops to help, they obviously want to be involved. If Charlie has 200 Archons committed to the battle, that's fine. What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.

Someone made a remark about how it'd be boring if GK wins. I don't think it has to be. Some of the best comics have been ones where the main characters were ridiculously overpowered. I think you can tell a good story without having to be concerned with how powerful they are, as long as the writing and characters are strong. GK has been winning to date, and nobody seems to find the story dull. Nor does a tough fight (or loss) for GK have to be told badly... it just seems that's the way it's headed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Spot » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:32 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:... Aaaaand the Deus Ex Machina debates return. Gosh.

Look, maybe arguing about whether something or other was "unexpected", "improbable" or "resolving a situation" is missing the point.

So let's call these "Rescued by the Cavalry" moments. You surely know them, every book of fantasy has a few. An "RbtC" would be when one side, facing massively unfavourable odds, is saved by the timely intervention of (sometimes unexpected) friends and allies; whether that intervention was set-up or unexpected is irrelevant, for example Aragorn enlisting the help of the ghosts is also an RbtC.

So why could RbtCs be annoying? Well, because they change the outcome of a battle mostly in the simplest way possible- more numbers, or more firepower or the like, as opposed to say inventive use of already available resources.

If RbtCs are thusly annoying, why does EVERY work of fantasy that involves battles include at least one? Because, actually, it is very difficult to plausibly constrain/determine a battle if the physics (or magic, or what have you) involved are not completely specified and known to the readers. It is one thing to look at a move in chess and realize that it was brilliant, quite another to look at a battlefield maneuver when that battle involves orks and trolls and flying shiskebappers, on whose abilities you as a reader know little.

So at the end of that rant, let me say my conclusion on this particular text update. Not DEM, but an understandable RbtC, even if it makes me a bit disappointed that GK will lose this battle by a numbers game instead of tactical cleverness that we also get to see. Alas, the subtle maneuvers that Charlie made to allow this are invisible to us the readers, so that bit of positional warfare is lost to us.



I think I understand Chalie.

As a long time war-gamer, and a long time PvPer online, I make it my business (well, pleasure...) to make sure that my opponents have no freaking idea what is about to befall them.

Phrases like "that came out of nowhere!!!", "there's no way someone could do that", "nobody could have seen that coming!", "you must have hacked the game somehow!" are music to my ears when I'm gaming. None of my wins are "Deux ex Machina" or "Rescued by the Cavalry" moments... they are simply careful, coordinated, and meticulously-planned ass-whippings of near-biblical proportions.

My favorite slaughter of clueless noobs (to use the gamer-specific designation), was in WW2 Online, a few weeks after release. I played around with the Pz38t (a tiny little axis tank with very light armor and a somewhat weak main gun), and discovered that you could fire the main gun when the commander was sticking up out of the top hatch spotting with binoculars.

Normally, this wouldn't actually do you any good, as we were fighting a huge herd of French Char B-1bis, which have horrifically thick armor and powerful guns in comparison to the Pz38t, so sniping from long range won't even scratch the enemy paint...

...UNLESS, you situate yourself on a really tall hill, like... for instance... the hill that looks down on Namur (Belgium I think) from the East about a kilometer away.

Then, if you elevate your gun to ridiculous heights, you can drop main tank rounds down onto the area near the French base like artillery shells, meaning that they literally arrive on target falling straight down... on the top of the French tanks, where the armor is weakest.

And, since everyone is looking for targets in the 200 to 400 meter range... because a 1000 meter kill shot is "impossible"... noone will even think to scan the hillsides a kilometer away for a tiny little tank acting like an artillery piece while hidden in the tall grass.

Basically, I had to use HE rounds to spot (they let off a puff of smoke when they hit), followed by switching out for a an AP round for the kill. Two or three shots, and another dead Char B1bis, which were (according to conventional wisdom) "unkillable" by the weak gun of the Pz38t.

The only limit to the fun, was the limited number of rounds in my tank. I could only kill 10 or so enemy tanks, before having to drive back to base to get resupplied.

So... the best part of the story... is that on about the third or fourth trip to the hillside killspot... with the French driven almost back out of the town, because their tanks kept "mysteriously" bursting into flames... one of the game referee-type folks (GMs?) starts saying that he's been receiving reports of someone "cheating" or "hacking" and causing all of the French heavy tanks to be destroyed. Most of the people complaining apparently mentioned an "invisible tank" killing them.

Hehehehe. So, I explain where I set my tank up, and I explain how I'm using HE rounds to spot, and AP rounds to kill, after firing them basically upwards at a 45 degree angle, and then letting gravity drop them down on my target like rocks from space. I demonstrate for the (GM?) and cause a few more tanks to burst into flames a kilometer away, and he laughs and says that the people complaining sent him new messages about the "invisible tank hacker" striking again. It was hilarious.

So, the moral of the story is that 99 times out of 100, a perceived "Deux-ex-Machina" is simply that: a PERCEIVED deux-ex-machina, by someone without enough experience, or without enough information, or without enough intuitive or investigative skills to figure out what the heck is *actually* going on.

Charlie, by the way, strikes me as a gamer who knows what's up, and who would be happy to turn people's CharB1bis's into smoldering wreckage all afternoon, while laughing at their complaints about "invisible tanks".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Menas » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:36 pm

PlotArmour wrote:To summarise; I have no problem with Charlie and TV having troops to help, they obviously want to be involved. If Charlie has 200 Archons committed to the battle, that's fine. What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.


Except that logic doesn't tell us they can't be there. I have yet to see one case in the storyline where a veil hasn't worked, so there's no reason to believe the archons can't be in the vicinity and veiled, especially if the people in the area don't have enough information to know that they should specificially be looking for them.

Archons have a pool of special of abilities to draw from, apparently veiling is one of them. They gain more of these abilities as they level, so many of them having the ability to veil is not that hard to buy into. Also, the Archons don't need to be in Spacerock's airspace. Air units have a lot of move, so they only need to be close by. And since the archers were able to help friendly units defend against air units in a close-by hex, there's no reason to believe that Archons can't do the same (ranged attacks).

I don't see this as being anywhere close to a Deus Ex Machina. Charlie and Jillian have a much better idea than we do of what it would take to pull this off when taking in-game mechanics into account.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:37 pm

I hope that such a good explanation is forthcoming... I just don't believe it will be.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Menas wrote:
PlotArmour wrote:To summarise; I have no problem with Charlie and TV having troops to help, they obviously want to be involved. If Charlie has 200 Archons committed to the battle, that's fine. What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.


Except that logic doesn't tell us they can't be there. I have yet to see one case in the storyline where a veil hasn't worked, so there's no reason to believe the archons can't be in the vicinity and veiled, especially if the people in the area don't have enough information to know that they should specificially be looking for them.It works, but working doesn't mean "invisible", just as the veil on Bogroll didn't make him invisible, just as the veil on GK's armies didn't make them invisible. Now if the Archons are really gwiffons, then fine. But that doesn't really help tip the scales does it...

Archons have a pool of special of abilities to draw from, apparently veiling is one of them. They gain more of these abilities as they level, so many of them having the ability to veil is not that hard to buy into. Also, the Archons don't need to be in Spacerock's airspace. Air units have a lot of move, so they only need to be close by. And since the archers were able to help friendly units defend against air units in a close-by hex, there's no reason to believe that Archons can't do the same (ranged attacks).Air units have alot of move, but you don't cross into other people's battlespace when it's their turn. That's why their move is irrelevant unless they're in the battlespace... they can't move when it's not their turn. that's why Jetstone's main army is screwed, no matter how long GK takes to use their move, or end turn. they have to wait.

I don't see this as being anywhere close to a Deus Ex Machina. Charlie and Jillian have a much better idea than we do of what it would take to pull this off when taking in-game mechanics into account.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Sinrus » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:55 pm

Menas wrote:
PlotArmour wrote:To summarise; I have no problem with Charlie and TV having troops to help, they obviously want to be involved. If Charlie has 200 Archons committed to the battle, that's fine. What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.


Except that logic doesn't tell us they can't be there. I have yet to see one case in the storyline where a veil hasn't worked, so there's no reason to believe the archons can't be in the vicinity and veiled, especially if the people in the area don't have enough information to know that they should specificially be looking for them.


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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:57 pm

PlotArmour wrote:I hope that such a good explanation if forthcoming... I just don't believe it will be.

Honest question: If you have no confidence in the author, why do you continue to even read, let alone make the effort to discuss the perceived lack of quality?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:50 pm

PlotArmour wrote:Dues Ex Machina (says Wikipedia)- "is a plot device in which a person, group, or thing appears suddenly, and at the exactly appropriate moment, in order to conveniently and unexpectedly help a character overcome a previously believed insolvable difficulty."


Please don't quote wiki as if it were an endpoint. Any person can edit any wiki entry to say whatever they want it to say, and it happens all the time. However, since even the wiki entry says, "Unexpectedly" and so you need to justify this before you go any further.
The reason it sucked was because it was often a wholly unsatisfying resolution to the plot, which allowed the pre-established world of the play, and it's rules, to be ignored.
Most people when they refer to deus ex machina, they are just referring to the unsatisfying plot resolution. But, reguardless, this is not the resolution of plot, THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF PLOT. Also, there has been nothing to make the current outcome insolvable.

So Deus ex does not apply. Nothing appeared suddenly, or unexpectedly. There was no insolvable difficulty presented. Just a very tough position. But again, this is the beginning, so there doesn't need to be an explanation over why everything is in its current place at the beginning of a story.

First off, you're points don't really seem to lead to any conclusion. So no one else is talking to Charlie, Jillian is, so what's your point?

2) Everyone, including the coalition will be on the lookout for veils, not least of all because GK has a foolmancer.
People don't look for veils where they assume there is none. Why do you think Jack's Genius at distractions a cause for even greater Awe in Jillian than his ability to veil? Make people think they know what they see, and then your veil never even needs to make a fail check.

Just as the best place to hide something is often in plain sight, if a few Archons were Veiled as Faq calvary riders, then no one would look hard enough at an ally's veil to pierce it. People don't try to discern when they believe they already know the answer. This is a universal and timeless truth.

3) Especially because Jack is a master class foolmancer.
See point 2. Jack is on GK's side, not Jillians. So they have no reason to even suspect a veil. And without suspicion, there is no reason to attempt to penetrate it.

4) If the Archons aren't in the battle space, then they're basically useless.
Ok, I begin to worder if you know what battlespace means. It's just the point where the units are close enough that Erfworld imposes turn order. They could be several hexes away and still in the battlespace. And that doesn't make them necessarily useless. It just means that Jetstone needs to last one turn before they come assist.
5) The explanations for how they could have entered the battlespace without alerting others to their presence via the turn system are wholly unsatisfying.
See 4. I think you misunderstand the mechanics. So far, we are still on turn 1. Unless everyone visible ends turn, and sunset won't come, THEN the turn system will alert others. Until that point, there is nothing at all to go on. We are on turn one phase one. This started as GK's turn, and it's STILL GK's turn.

Jillian added them to the alliance without telling anyone?
Charlie doesn't need to ally, he could have sold Archons as mercenaries.

What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.
So the problem is with your logic. There are at least two logical explanations over how Archons might be in Jetstone battlespace. A larger force several hexes away on a mountain top no one is interested in, or a smaller veiled force disguised as Jillian's troops. There is no DnD elfish 1/6 chance to automatically discover a hidden door mechanic here. Each Warlord and such has a chance, but they have to deliberately apply that chance. Jillian had to start counting bats to notice one group was acting strange. Even then she still had to ask Vinny about the bats. She didn't burst the veil in the way you're thinking.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:59 pm

It's only "logical" in the sense that the readers know GK is going to get screwed, because all the foreshadowing is going that way. It doesn't mean that screwing will happen in a way that is logical, which is what I'm worried we're being set up for.

Archons veiled as Faq cavalry riders is fine, that's a great set up. The problem is that isn't going to be enough to tip the scales.

Jetstone aren't stupid. They have scouts precisely to pick up the unexpected. They know their #1 enemy has a foolmancer. That's reason enough to be wary.

It just means that Jetstone needs to last one turn before they come assist.

Sure, this would be a good explanation. It's just that the fight will be over after 1 turn, that's exactly what GK was counting on when they used the veiled Dwagons... that Jetstone can't redeploy until it's all over.

I understand the turn system pretty well. The problem is people have said "Archons could be in nearby space, but have lots of move!". The problem is they can't enter the battle space until it's their turn... and it's GK's turn... so they have to be in the same battlespace as spacerock now... so it seems we're being pitched the "invisible! Awesome! 200 Archons! Magic hats that Dwagon hordes can fly out of!!!" angle... sure, I made up the last one, but at this point it wouldn't be unlikely...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:08 pm

You know. I know everyone has focused on how the turamancer can help pop things faster by reducing the turns, and make it easier to turn a unit, also presumably by reducing the turns it takes.

But there is also an offensive use of a turnamancer that can be logically extrapolated,
Spoiler: show
making the enemy take MORE turns to do something, and maybe, even possibly, FORCING END OF TURN.
Since this is the beginning of a book, we should expect a few "new abilities" to be thrown at us anyway.

I really should have added spoilers. That might be a good WAG on my part.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Spot » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:14 pm

Infidel wrote:You know. I know everyone has focused on how the turamancer can help pop things faster by reducing the turns, and make it easier to turn a unit, also presumably by reducing the turns it takes.

But there is also an offensive use of a turnamancer that can be logically extrapolated,
Spoiler: show
making the enemy take MORE turns to do something, and maybe, even possibly, FORCING END OF TURN.
Since this is the beginning of a book, we should expect a few "new abilities" to be thrown at us anyway.

I really should have added spoilers. That might be a good WAG on my part.



Ooooh, now that (spoiler) would be a nasty trick.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:19 pm

That sort of use of turnmany would seem to be too powerful to really allow... it would make a decent side unbeatable, so likewise I think that's a poor outcome.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:57 pm

Although infidel answered your points, I'd like to try to bring in another angel.

PlotArmour wrote:1) Yes, we know Charlie wants to be involved, but we also know everyone is hostile to him, every nearby kingdom in fact.


After the turn of Ossomer Slatley is way more likely to swallow it and hire Charley.

PlotArmour wrote:2) Everyone, including the coalition will be on the lookout for veils, not least of all because GK has a foolmancer. In order to sneak GK's dwagon army in, they had to disguise it as a regular army, and fair enough. But what we apepar to be getting set up for is a literal "Archons invisibly snuck up to Spacerock, and are there now". If the plot doesn't go this way, all for the good, but I feel that's where it is headed. You have to wonder why GK wouldn't do this with massive forces if it's possible.
3) Especially because Jack is a master class foolmancer. A few replies I see try to tone him down, but so far we have him veiling whole cities from hostiles for years (however many turns that is, over 700 it seems), to the point nobody knew they existed. The reaction to his abilities from respected warlords like Caesar was complete incredulity. He's been very impressive to date, and it's really unlikely there is an Archon equivalent as good or better. Let alone lots of them.


Jetstone doesn't have many fliers. To be exact, 9 unipegataurs and a bunch of orlies. Neither could uncover a veil. If they scout, Jillian and her gwiffins and warlords would do it. Not that scouting would be sensible. If Gk sends their foolamancer out, he would be guarded by a big group of dwagons and archons. A lone flier would be toast. And the whole stack of fliers of Jillian couldn't scout many hexes. Also Jillian would have to return to Jetstone at the end of the turn to avoid becoming a aim for GK. So the radius of her scouting is only half of her gwiffins move. And since dwagons have more move than gwiffins, the scouting would be quite useless.
Gk can't let their massive column get veiled by Jack. The column of heavies and infantry reaches over more than one hex, and Jack can't only veil one hex. I belive this is because the street they use has only a limited area, and there are simply to many troops for one hex. If they used the space next to the street, they would get a move penalty.

PlotArmour wrote:4) If the Archons aren't in the battle space, then they're basically useless. So either the story is headed in a very different way, of they are somehow hidden in the battle space of Spacerock, and none of Jetstone's many warlords has noticed them at all, despite the fact that foolmancy needs to leave traces. Absurd.


As mentioned, Jetstone hasn't enough fliers to scout everything. If the archons wait 7 hexes away, they are basically out of reach. And as soon as Jillian arrived, she probably took over any scouting.

PlotArmour wrote:5) The explanations for how they could have entered the battlespace without alerting others to their presence via the turn system are wholly unsatisfying. Jillian added them to the alliance without telling anyone? WTF? What authority does she have to do that? It also seems complete ridiculous. They don't use a turn? That's false, we saw in book 1.


Since there are already mentioned two possibilities, I'd like to add an third: The caster is Vanna, the turnamancer. And a turnamancer could have the ability to postpone* the turn of a side. That could explain why they took a otherwise for battle useless caster with them.

*maybe she can also pre-draw a turn? Hmmm.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Infidel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:04 am

PlotArmour wrote:That sort of use of turnmany would seem to be too powerful to really allow... it would make a decent side unbeatable, so likewise I think that's a poor outcome.


It's probably expensive or it's like Civ hero units, where if you use the ability to rush a Wonder, then you lose the hero.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:20 am

If by reply, you mean "bring up a wholly new point", then yes, he replied already.
After the turn of Ossomer Slatley is way more likely to swallow it and hire Charley.

In the first place, this is irrelevant, because barring a miracle (in the remaining 12 or so pages of this book), the fight will be over by the time it's Jetstone's turn (and Slately is likely to be dead). GK has certainly planned on that assumption. Also, bear in mind that the royals have to kill Charlie now, he knows it, and they know it, so any alliance would be temporary, and probably not in Charlies interest... charlie is probably busy trying to bump off Jetstone in favour of Jillian or Haggar, who aren't as hung up on the royal thing.
the scouting would be quite useless.

Your thesis, that only a flier can scout, is without basis in fact. Likewise, you don't have to be 2 feet from a veil to see it. the warlords picked up the bats from ages away, and the Archons weren't very close to Bogroll to see the veil. It's ridiculous to think that Jetstone has just conceded scouting is useless, and doesn't do it, and just allows veiled armies a free pass into their capital city. You don't need a flier to scout. You just need to find the object/s the size of 120-200 Archons, and say "gee, I wonder why that is there, when it wasn't before". Plus, there are 4 bats in the battlespace too.
Gk can't let their massive column get veiled by Jack. The column of heavies and infantry reaches over more than one hex, and Jack can't only veil one hex. I belive this is because the street they use has only a limited area, and there are simply to many troops for one hex. If they used the space next to the street, they would get a move penalty.

Yet Jack can veil a whole city... sorry, this seems unlikely... plus he veiled their whole army anyway, showing he can do it. If he could make part of it invisible, or a force of whatever size Charlie is about to spring, then he would. Even making some of your force invisible is an advantage. But there's no indication such a power exists in Erf, and it would be ludicrously overpowered if it did.
And as soon as Jillian arrived, she probably took over any scouting.

That would make sense. A secret force who goes to great pains to hide their existence is probably the logical force to send scouting...

I can't see how turnmancy of the sort you're suggesting wouldn't break the game.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby PlotArmour » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:29 am

And as I said earlier, sure, if Jillian's troops are Archons in disguise, that would make more sense... but that doesn't seem to tip the scale... it'd be a decent upgrade, but you're trading off the Gwiffons strength... so it's not enough to tip the scale.
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