Book 2 – Text Updates 006

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby ErfNch » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:02 am

Angband wrote:We know that Faq has been unable to pop any casters.


From this updates we could suspect she eventually popped one :

Text Updates 006 wrote:The upkeep for herself, three Warlords, and all of these heavies (and for Titans' sake, a Caster) would have been a lot more than her purse could have supported as a Barbarian


We know Charlie funded the contract for Vanna, so basically Jillian wouldn't have to pay for her upkeep, and the "titan's sake" seems to imply that Jillian is relieved (about having finally popped a caster?). Also, the fact that Jillian used a Turnamancer called Vanna is perfectly known, but in the updates and pages the possibly new caster is only called "the caster": if this hooded character was Vanna, then the Turnamancer wouldn't have been revealed so fast in the updates to be shadowed afterward. Of course, we'll only know for sure when his/her indentity is eventually revealed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Sonic Screwdriver » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:37 am

There are exactly two places a caster has been mentioned to be with Jillian without a name given, Ossomer's knowledge, and this recent text update.Calling all of her troops by generic names for what would likely be expensive isn't really a sign of the author being intentionally vague. Are we to assume that she has a new heavy we haven't seen yet because Text Update 6 didn't give us names; such as knight class giants with angel wings (going off of the LA Angels)?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Krennson » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:50 am

did anyone else catch the reference Jillian made to Barbarian Treasuries?

What i THINK she told us is that barbarians DO have treasuries, and can pop rations from that treasury, but there is a maximum number of smchuckers a barbarian treasury can contain at any one time?

And that compared to common city treasury levels, it's an awfully low number at that?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Krennson » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:05 am

*snip*

Gez wrote:
Word of God

fractal wrote:Furthermore, at level six you're probably a lot better at killing things than you were at level one, so you can accumulate xp faster (possibly six times faster...

If people were able to increase XP gain as fast or faster than XP cost increase, then people of Ansom's level wouldn't be rare.



also, on the Word of God link you provided, It's stated that while XP requirements are exponential for each subsequent level, actual combat effectiveness is linear.

So, assuming Base 2 multipliers....

A level 10 character needs, say, 2^9 (2 to the ninth) EXP more than a level 1 character, but is only 2*9 (2 times 9) more powerfull.

so a 10th level character would need 512 times as much EXP, but would only be 18 times as powerful.

if it's base 5, as in your example, that's even worse.

And it's also possible that EXP and combat effectiveness use DIFFERENT multipliers... EXP may be base 5, and Power level may be base 1....

For power level, at least, it probably IS base 1, since I think it's implied that your garrison bonus is exactly equal to your character level: A level 1 warlord gives a +1 bonus, a level 10 gives +10.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:09 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:l. By the way, I just realized that Stabley should be at least level 9 or 10. Jillian is level 9 and couldn't pay the upkeep for 3 warlords, 7 knights, 6 megalogwiffins, 26 gwiffins and 1 caster. Stanley had more than 30 dwagons, 3 knigths and 1 master-class caster, and could have paid the upkeep for them, if he became barbarian. Dwagons should at least cost the same upkeep as megalogwffins, and certainly more than gwiffins.


I don't know if it has ever come up, but does the Arkenhammer effect the upkeep of dwagons at all? And this update has Jillian considering, from her barbarian days, disbanding units if she started going broke.

Stanley, if it had happened, might have had to do the same. I'm not sure how much he knew about Faq, he might have assumed it would be able to support the forces he fled with, only then to find it unable to (just like Jillian needed TV support before going and capturing those two cities to pay the upkeep on what she had).

Sonic Screwdriver wrote:Are we to assume that she has a new heavy we haven't seen yet because Text Update 6 didn't give us names; such as knight class giants with angel wings (going off of the LA Angels)?


I assume in this context Jillian is is referring to having the resources to pay for the upkeep of the Megalogwiffs. We know what she has there - Gwiffins, Megalogwiffs, Knights, Warlords and a caster, and only Megalogwiffs seems to fit the bill for heavies.

But generally I think the difference is that heavies is a good way to refer to a large number of the same type, but "the caster" is an individual, easy to name. Vanna has been referred to, from Jillian's perspective like "Vanna had done some good work to turn him, but the dungeon didn't much interest Jillian. Vanna didn't really know how to play right." It would be a bit like referring to Duncan only as "the Chief Warlord".

Of course if it is someone new, like a new recruit provided by Charlie, it makes sense, because Jillian wouldn't have formed any real bond with them yet, in this mode, so they could just be "the caster".
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Krennson » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:01 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:By the way, I just realized that Stabley should be at least level 9 or 10. Jillian is level 9 and couldn't pay the upkeep for 3 warlords, 7 knights, 6 megalogwiffins, 26 gwiffins and 1 caster. Stanley had more than 30 dwagons, 3 knigths and 1 master-class caster, and could have paid the upkeep for them, if he became barbarian. Dwagons should at least cost the same upkeep as megalogwffins, and certainly more than gwiffins.



what makes you say stanley could have paid for that many if he became a barbarian? are you reffering to his retreat to faq?

All we seem to know so far about barbarian status is that treasury max capacity is extremely limited. We don't know that treasury capacity for barbarians is linked to level.

Stanley might have had Just enough money to keep those units funded for ONE TURN, while he rebuilt faq. Since Jillian had to travel BETWEEN contracts in her mercenary days, she probably worried more about having enough money to maintain all her units for 5-10 turns.

Also, Stanley might have been able to found faq before the end of his turn, possibly giving him a city BEFORE the bill came due for unit support at the end of turn.

Stanley might have been carrying enough provisions to keep all his units fed for a few turns without spending schmuckers at all.

He might even have been keeping that large of a force just to guarentee his ability to REACH faq, but been planning to disband most of them as soon as Gobwin Knob fell, leaving him with a bare minimum of units with which to found and protect a new city.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby HandofShadows » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:10 am

Nice look into Jillians head on this one. I have always expected that Jillian would be ending up on the same side of Parson and company, but I didn't think we would be seeing signs of this possibility so early in the book. (if you notice, all the other characters form the origianl cast page are now on GK's side with the exception of Jillian). The connection between Jillian and Wanda is still there (like the fact that bot of them choose outfits from the same movie was not a clue) and I wonder how this will all play out.
One odd thing though. We don't see any of Jillians normal hostility towards Stanley. Could it be a result of Charles playing with Jillians head in some way (and screwing up)?

PlotArmour wrote:Ugh. Ok, looks like I'm done with this comic for now unless it picks up... I can't believe we're being pitched the "200 Archons out of nowhere, totally awesome, cool cool cool!!!" as a plausible and satisfying outcome to this book... come on.


I'm sorry where unable to see the posibility of Charlie tossing a lot of Archons into this battle. There where a LOT of clues around and I rather had been expecting something like this sooner if not later. Don't blame others becasue you missed something.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby HandofShadows » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:13 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I don't know if it has ever come up, but does the Arkenhammer effect the upkeep of dwagons at all? And this update has Jillian considering, from her barbarian days, disbanding units if she started going broke.


There has been no mention of the Arkenhammer lowering/eliminating the upkeep of dwagons. I think it would have been mentioned when Parson was asking Stanely about the powers of the Akenhammer in the summer updates.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby menge101 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:26 am

If Charlescomm had units in the Battlespace, wouldn't everyone know just because every now and then it'd be their turn? Is there someway to hide your turn that we don't know of? Or is it simply that other sides only know when it is and isn't their own turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby menge101 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:33 am

Krennson wrote:What i THINK she told us is that barbarians DO have treasuries ... but there is a maximum number of smchuckers a barbarian treasury can contain at any one time?

And that compared to common city treasury levels, it's an awfully low number at that?


According to proposed canon in the wiki, http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/City, cities provide schmuckers. I don't think that a Barbarians treasury is limited, its that they burn through it since their income is purely from contracts fulfilled. They don't get free Schmuckers every day/turn/whatever from ownership of a city.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:37 am

menge101 wrote:
Krennson wrote:What i THINK she told us is that barbarians DO have treasuries ... but there is a maximum number of smchuckers a barbarian treasury can contain at any one time?

And that compared to common city treasury levels, it's an awfully low number at that?


According to proposed canon in the wiki, http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/City, cities provide schmuckers. I don't think that a Barbarians treasury is limited, its that they burn through it since their income is purely from contracts fulfilled. They don't get free Schmuckers every day/turn/whatever from ownership of a city.


Barbarians commanders don't have a treasure, they have a purse, like every commander units. The schmucker limit for a purse is level of the unit * 1000.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby (name here) » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:37 am

menge101 wrote:If Charlescomm had units in the Battlespace, wouldn't everyone know just because every now and then it'd be their turn? Is there someway to hide your turn that we don't know of? Or is it simply that other sides only know when it is and isn't their own turn?


Alliances share their turn, something that was clearly established in book 1 when Charlescomm forces had the same turn as the RCC1 while allied but went first while not allied.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby menge101 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:47 am

(name here) wrote:
menge101 wrote:If Charlescomm had units in the Battlespace, wouldn't everyone know just because every now and then it'd be their turn? Is there someway to hide your turn that we don't know of? Or is it simply that other sides only know when it is and isn't their own turn?


Alliances share their turn, something that was clearly established in book 1 when Charlescomm forces had the same turn as the RCC1 while allied but went first while not allied.


So, you are saying Charlescomm can be part of an alliance with Jetstone and have Jetstone not know about it? So either any member of an alliance can add another side to the alliance with no notice to the other members of the alliance, in this case Transylvito and Jetstone have no idea that Faq brought Charlescomm into the alliance. Or Faq is leading the Alliance, not Jetstone.

I add that last note, because we did see Ansom freely add Charlescomm to the RCC1 alliance mid battle in book 1. I was under the impression this was because he was leading the coalition.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Key Lime Pie » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:54 am

Perhaps we ought to consider the possibility that Charlescomm isn't considered a side at all - since it hires itself out to multiple sides in multiple conflicts, and if I recall correctly, sometimes even 2 opposing sides in the same conflict. Perhaps we ought to see Charlescomm more as a Magic Kingdom - where any side can hire units or services, and Charly merely coordinates this all.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:00 am

... Aaaaand the Deus Ex Machina debates return. Gosh.

Look, maybe arguing about whether something or other was "unexpected", "improbable" or "resolving a situation" is missing the point.

So let's call these "Rescued by the Cavalry" moments. You surely know them, every book of fantasy has a few. An "RbtC" would be when one side, facing massively unfavourable odds, is saved by the timely intervention of (sometimes unexpected) friends and allies; whether that intervention was set-up or unexpected is irrelevant, for example Aragorn enlisting the help of the ghosts is also an RbtC.

So why could RbtCs be annoying? Well, because they change the outcome of a battle mostly in the simplest way possible- more numbers, or more firepower or the like, as opposed to say inventive use of already available resources.

If RbtCs are thusly annoying, why does EVERY work of fantasy that involves battles include at least one? Because, actually, it is very difficult to plausibly constrain/determine a battle if the physics (or magic, or what have you) involved are not completely specified and known to the readers. It is one thing to look at a move in chess and realize that it was brilliant, quite another to look at a battlefield maneuver when that battle involves orks and trolls and flying shiskebappers, on whose abilities you as a reader know little.

So at the end of that rant, let me say my conclusion on this particular text update. Not DEM, but an understandable RbtC, even if it makes me a bit disappointed that GK will lose this battle by a numbers game instead of tactical cleverness that we also get to see. Alas, the subtle maneuvers that Charlie made to allow this are invisible to us the readers, so that bit of positional warfare is lost to us.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Key Lime Pie » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:09 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:...even if it makes me a bit disappointed that GK will lose this battle by a numbers game instead of tactical cleverness

The point of most stories is that the hero or side which we're rooting for beats overwhelming odds due to some tactical cleverty or what-not, something to show that every odd can be beat. Ten thousand Orcs versus the Fellowship of the Ring plus maybe a few hundred knights? Voldemort versus a pubescant teen who still attends school? I could (figurativelly speaking) name you a thousand more examples similar to these. GK facing impossible odds? End-game volcano. RCC2 with massive numbers? Just more odds to beat. And bear in mind, this isn't the great finale. This is just a story developing to justify putting Parson back in play - a massive defeat will likely ensue, and Parson will have to play the odds again. RCC2 just needed to be big to beat the onslaught GK has massed at Jetstone's gates right now.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:17 am

Key Lime Pie wrote:The point of most stories is that the hero or side which we're rooting for beats overwhelming odds due to some tactical cleverty or what-not, something to show that every odd can be beat. Ten thousand Orcs versus the Fellowship of the Ring plus maybe a few hundred knights? Voldemort versus a pubescant teen who still attends school? I could (figurativelly speaking) name you a thousand more examples similar to these. GK facing impossible odds? End-game volcano. RCC2 with massive numbers? Just more odds to beat. And bear in mind, this isn't the great finale. This is just a story developing to justify putting Parson back in play - a massive defeat will likely ensue, and Parson will have to play the odds again. RCC2 just needed to be big to beat the onslaught GK has massed at Jetstone's gates right now.


I think we're really on the same page just using different words.

For this battle, I would have liked it better if Jetstone won by tactical cleverness rather than what appears to be an RbtC. It would not be a progressing story anyway if Parson was back as Overlord of one city surrounded now would it?

As for your examples, look at all of them and you'll see that it's not just the Fellowship, not just Harry, not just (insert hero name here). In the Lord of the Rings, the Good Guys get rescued several times by the intervention of Ents, or cavalry from some other city, or ghosts and so on. As for Harry, he's not alone and that is actually one of the points of the movies (I haven't read the books).

Also, my RbtC thing is NOT about resolving the story. It's merely a way of determining the outcome of one incident in a story, and can occur at any time. Like say, at the middle of it. Whenever a battle happens.

The true resolution may come later. Case in point, the uncroaked volcano was NOT RbtC, actually that was a pretty clever Checkov's Gun. The resolution of Book 2 is something I have no idea about. What I know is that it is likely that now, this battle, will be decided by RbtC. Understandable, but not very interesting.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby (name here) » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:18 am

menge101 wrote:So, you are saying Charlescomm can be part of an alliance with Jetstone and have Jetstone not know about it? So either any member of an alliance can add another side to the alliance with no notice to the other members of the alliance, in this case Transylvito and Jetstone have no idea that Faq brought Charlescomm into the alliance. Or Faq is leading the Alliance, not Jetstone.

I add that last note, because we did see Ansom freely add Charlescomm to the RCC1 alliance mid battle in book 1. I was under the impression this was because he was leading the coalition.


Well, clearly FAQ could add Charlescomm to the RCC2 without anyone else knowing, because that is precisely what happened.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Liam » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:25 am

All i got to say after this update is. . . . Love is a battlefield.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Deuce » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:28 am

Just a thought on veiled Archons - Veiling changes what a unit looks like, but needs to be roughly the same size. how much size difference is there between an Archon and a Gwiffion? Maybe she has 26 of them with her?
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