Book 2 – Text Updates 006

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Angband » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:47 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote: Same place they got Vanna, from the MK via Charlie (if it isn't Vanna).


Oh, and when exactly was Jillian suppose to bring this newly-hired caster through the magic portal in Faq, when Jillian left Faq quite a number of turns ago to get to Spacerock in time for this battle?

You have absolutely boop-all evidence that Faq has hired a second caster. The only Faq caster we know of is a Turnamancer, with a good reason for being dressed up like a Final Fantasy White Mage, and good reason for not saying much.

It is an interesting idea, with a lot going for it, but I doubt it is Vanna, if only because of the build up - while Vanna was named freely in the summer update now, here, it is "And the Caster had almost nothing to say at all". Mysterious.

Although - does Vanna the letter turner ever talk on Wheel of Fortune? If not I guess that would also fit in with Jillian's rather quite mystery caster.


No, Vanna almost never said anything on WoF. Again, consistent with the silent "white mage" being Vanna.

Srsly, what evidence do you have that it's a healamancer, beyond the healers-dress-in-white trope?

ErfNch wrote:
Angband wrote:We know that Faq has been unable to pop any casters.


From this updates we could suspect she eventually popped one :

Text Updates 006 wrote:The upkeep for herself, three Warlords, and all of these heavies (and for Titans' sake, a Caster) would have been a lot more than her purse could have supported as a Barbarian


She's speaking hypothetically -- IF she had been a barbarian, her personal purse would not have been big enough to pay for the upkeep for all those units, even IF she could have had the schmuckers to pay for them. In that same paragraph she goes on about how she's relieved she can just have the side's treasury do the mathamancy for her.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Wachman » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:49 am

(name here) wrote:Well, clearly FAQ could add Charlescomm to the RCC2 without anyone else knowing, because that is precisely what happened.
[/quote]

Not necessarily, if the Archons were hired out to Faq, then when Faq joined the RCC2 those Archons became part of it because they were fighting for Faq at the time. Charlescomm itself doesn't need to be directly part of the RCC2 for this to work. And actually this feels more like what Charles would, Have a large number of Archons hired on as mercenaries in fight while not having his side be directly involved.



Edit: Oops Fixed the quote to show who I was quoting correctly. Sorry for the mistake.
Last edited by Wachman on Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby menge101 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:04 pm

(name here) wrote:Well, clearly FAQ could add Charlescomm to the RCC2 without anyone else knowing, because that is precisely what happened.


I didn't say that. FTFY.

Also, I agree that there is nothing demonstrating that Charlescomm is part of RCC2 now. I forgot about Archons being hired out and joining a side. It seems odd to me that Charlie would hire out a huge force of Archons though. I guess I'm going to be unhappy with some detail until all is revealed.

Edit: I was suspecting an overwhelming force of Archons. Something like every single available unit. So large a force that it would be suspiciously unaffordable by Faq. But whatever, I'm going to stop speculating and wait for the reveal.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:46 pm

HandofShadows wrote:There has been no mention of the Arkenhammer lowering/eliminating the upkeep of dwagons. I think it would have been mentioned when Parson was asking Stanely about the powers of the Akenhammer in the summer updates.


Hmmm, I couldn't remember if it did, I guess since all the tools so far have different features it wouldn't be surprising it didn't (the pliers create upkeep-less units, although Charlie Archon's still are costly...). Not sure if Stanley would have mentioned it or not, he still seems learn new things about it (the bird effect) occasionally.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:... Aaaaand the Deus Ex Machina debates return. Gosh.


Heh, it's just irksome since it is so rarely used correctly.

So let's call these "Rescued by the Cavalry" moments. You surely know them, every book of fantasy has a few. An "RbtC" would be when one side, facing massively unfavourable odds, is saved by the timely intervention of (sometimes unexpected) friends and allies; whether that intervention was set-up or unexpected is irrelevant, for example Aragorn enlisting the help of the ghosts is also an RbtC.


I'm not sure it really counts as a RbtC if the cavalry have actually been there the whole time, laying in wait for the enemy. There is being RbtC, and there is the trap.

The difference is the state the sides occupy. In the first a side will be in real danger of defeat/death if they aren't saved by the timely arrival of assistance (unexpected or not). In the other a side may or may not be in real danger, but either way they have some plan, some strategy, in place that will really mess up their enemy when initiated. Reinforcements lying in wait, lighting the pitch, collapsing the tunnels or whatever.

I'm reminded of the bit in Red Cliff where
Spoiler: show
it appears the alliance had broken, and the mainly cavalry side had returned home. The lower commanders of the remaining force doubt their chances of winning against the enemy who already had superior numbers before the break, and the enemy are heartened by this. Of course in the big battle the trap is revealed, the split was a trick by the two sides generals and the strategist. They launch their attack first at the front via water and then the cavalry attacks the, now less defended, rear of the fort via land. Or something like that.


So why could RbtCs be annoying? Well, because they change the outcome of a battle mostly in the simplest way possible- more numbers, or more firepower or the like, as opposed to say inventive use of already available resources....

So at the end of that rant, let me say my conclusion on this particular text update. Not DEM, but an understandable RbtC, even if it makes me a bit disappointed that GK will lose this battle by a numbers game instead of tactical cleverness that we also get to see. Alas, the subtle maneuvers that Charlie made to allow this are invisible to us the readers, so that bit of positional warfare is lost to us.


Eh, it is to early to tell how it is going to play out (I don't think numbers game will be it). But at this stage I don't find it disappointing, mainly because we have been given enough so it isn't a situation where the "heroes" appear doomed when, wait, what is that coming over the hill... horsemen! Clearly young Lieutenant Scott (last seen riding off for help 45 minutes ago) got the news to the general and they have arrived in the nick of time!

Charlie and Jillian have been preparing what ever it is they have cooking for a while now, and the reader knows that. They are almost an independent side in this particular battle, with both Jetstone and GK doing their own thing while Jillian apparently bides her time. This update shows they worked hard to get into position to spring their trap (or whatever it is) and to keep it secret from everyone that could interfere with it.

Although you are right, we haven't got to see all the subtle maneuvering, though the natural allies trick was a nice move, giving Jillian the final resources she needed to safely leave her kingdom for this mission.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Nebulious » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:58 pm

Personally, I'd be more disappointed if there weren't any Charlescomm on the field. It would be totally out of character for Charlie to just sit back and leave this entirely in Jillian's hands.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:03 pm

Angband wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote: Same place they got Vanna, from the MK via Charlie (if it isn't Vanna).


Oh, and when exactly was Jillian suppose to bring this newly-hired caster through the magic portal in Faq, when Jillian left Faq quite a number of turns ago to get to Spacerock in time for this battle?


Before she left Faq? The last of the summer updates has Jillian's force heading out, and it is clear on a dangerous mission that had been some time in the planning. So Charlie's new caster arrives on that, or the turn before, mounts up with everyone else and heads out.

Or with Charlie's archons meeting up with Jillian and co on her journey they drop her off ;)

You have absolutely boop-all evidence that Faq has hired a second caster. The only Faq caster we know of is a Turnamancer, with a good reason for being dressed up like a Final Fantasy White Mage, and good reason for not saying much.


Note above where I said "If it isn't Vanna" and the bit where I brought up her not speaking and I said that could actually support it being her! Personally I don't think it is, but hey, I could very well be wrong. A lot of speculating goes on here. At the very least if it is it is all awfully mysterious for a caster we know by name and action from the summer updates.

Srsly, what evidence do you have that it's a healamancer, beyond the healers-dress-in-white trope?


I've never said it is a healomancer. In fact I've said I definitely don't think it is one - but I could be wrong.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Gez » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:04 pm

Here's the plot for Erfworld Volume 2: Now without what you philistines incorrectly call Deus Ex Machina:
Part 1: Meet the Jetstone -- Wanda steamrolls over Spacerock. It also turns out that Faq being backed by Transylvito and Charlescomm both had absolutely no effect at all on the outcome. The end.
Part 2: blank pages.

This is, undoubtedly, a much better story than one with an actual conflict where both sides demonstrate cleverness and resourcefulness.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:12 pm

Gez wrote:Here's the plot for Erfworld Volume 2: Now without what you philistines incorrectly call Deus Ex Machina:
Part 1: Meet the Jetstone -- Wanda steamrolls over Spacerock. It also turns out that Faq being backed by Transylvito and Charlescomm both had absolutely no effect at all on the outcome. The end.
Part 2: blank pages.

This is, undoubtedly, a much better story than one with an actual conflict where both sides demonstrate cleverness and resourcefulness.


You're wrong about Part 2, it would not be blank pages. Rather, several very fan-servicey images of Wanda in various outfits doing things with/to the Jetstone family and Jillian.

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I'm not sure it really counts as a RbtC if the cavalry have actually been there the whole time, laying in wait for the enemy. There is being RbtC, and there is the trap.


In the interest of keeping RbtC meaningful, I'll go with what you say here. Somewhat btw, the Red Cliff thing is clever tactics.

The thing is, the battle for Jetstone really is borderline RbtC; Jetstone won't have to win by relying on Tremennis (may he be croaked terribly) and his resourcefulness. Rather, Jetstone will win by Charlie's off-screen resourcefulness which whatever Gez says, it's a bit of a let-down.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby AngryAngel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:25 pm

(name here) wrote:Well, clearly FAQ could add Charlescomm to the RCC2 without anyone else knowing, because that is precisely what happened.


Not necessarily. We know allied sides move on the same turn. We know Faq is allied with Transylvito, and that Transylvito is part of the RCC2, and so allied with Jetstone. We know Charlescomm is allied with Faq. They all go on the same turn. That doesn't mean they're all part of the RCC2, or all allied with each other, or that they know what everyone else is up to.

That makes me wonder what would happen to a side that was allied with, say, both Haggar and Jetstone, when those sides went to war against each other. If they weren't actively involved in the conflict would they get two turns? Or would the game-like mechanics of Erfworld force them to choose a side, if only for purposes of determining their turn order, even if they remained neutral?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:39 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
In the interest of keeping RbtC meaningful, I'll go with what you say here. Somewhat btw, the Red Cliff thing is clever tactics.

The thing is, the battle for Jetstone really is borderline RbtC; Jetstone won't have to win by relying on Tremennis (may he be croaked terribly) and his resourcefulness. Rather, Jetstone will win by Charlie's off-screen resourcefulness which whatever Gez says, it's a bit of a let-down.


It was a good film (best to see the full version if possible though, not the cut one.)

But I know what you are saying, and you are right - it is borderline. But then, to me, it seems there are almost two battles going on here. First Jetstone vs. Wanda and co - Jetstone is fighting for it's life, they think they're all in now and they just have to wait and see how the cards fall. They may well need to be RbtC (although I don't think their predicament is quite that dire yet).

Then there is Jillian/Charlie vs. Wanda and Co (I assume). GK doesn't even really know they are in that fight yet. Jetstone doesn't know either - that is how good Charlie and Jillian have been in their planning. I wouldn't call Jetstone bait, I guess Charlie/Jillian are taking advantage of something they knew would have to happen.

So Charlie and Jillian's cleverness/trap/whatever just happens to be occurring in the same place as the fight to save Jetstone's capital. It will be interesting to see whether Jetstone actually has a large part to play in the plan (will Jillian say "Slately, here's what you're to do") or what.

If they don't we'll just have to hope Trem gets to show of his shiny Chief Warlord skills in future (I mean that, I like the guy :P )
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby theseus2x » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:43 pm

mblackadder wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:"Titans disband"? That's one heavy piece of swearing.

700 turns? No wonder Parson's getting buff; he's been going up and down those stairs every day for 2 years now.

That's not her total age. As seven hundred turns ago she was a merc. However we know she stopped being a Merc when the Grand Coalition 1 was organized. Plus she would have poped her heir by now if seven hundred turns had passed since the start of Book 1. No It's been what? 120 turns of Erfworld for Parson to date?


Agreed. I don't think Parson's been in Erf for 700 turns.

There is a timeline somewhere, right? They keep referring to it on the wiki.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Stitch » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:45 pm

I don't know if anybody mentioned this already:

Since the caster's Final Fantasy white mage garb suggests that it's a Healomancer, it may have the ability to cast some form of "Raise".
...in which case, Jillians real secret weapon may be ANSOM. :shock:

This kindof makes sense, considering the romantic connection between Jillian and Ansom. Attempting to UN-Decrypt him woudl be a priority if it''s possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby The Shadow » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:48 pm

AngryAngel wrote:That makes me wonder what would happen to a side that was allied with, say, both Haggar and Jetstone, when those sides went to war against each other. If they weren't actively involved in the conflict would they get two turns? Or would the game-like mechanics of Erfworld force them to choose a side, if only for purposes of determining their turn order, even if they remained neutral?


I doubt you *can* be allied to two sides at war.

One thing we don't know is whether "alliance" is associative or not. That is, if Transylvito is allied with Jetstone, and Jetstone is allied with Haggar, is Transylvito automatically allied to Haggar as well? I doubt it, given how weird things would get for Charlie in that situation, but it's not impossible.

In some games, while you can have treaties on a binary basis with various sides, there's also an option for "alliances" in which everybody signs on to the same treaty at once. (Though there is often provision for new members to be added, and for old members to secede or be expelled.) Usually in such games, if you're part of an alliance, you can't make binary treaties of your own any more; the alliance as a whole has to do so.

Whichever, in any game I've ever played, you have to break a treaty before you can go to war with the side you were previously allied with. Typically what happens is that if Transylvito has binary treaties with Jetstone and Haggar, and then Jetstone and Haggar go to war, both sides plead (or demand) help from Transylvito, and Transylvito has to pick one (infuriating the other) or else write them both off (infuriating them both). If Transylvito tries to help both, they will both, again, be infuriated.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby themysticalone » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:56 pm

fractal wrote:
Gez wrote:Who said Ansom (for example) was popped last night? Getting to level 10 probably took a long time. Progression through levels is exponential. It takes more time to go from level 6 to 7 than from level 1 all the way to 6.

What are you basing that conclusion on? Even if levels are exponential, each one could require something like 50% more xp than the level before it. If that is true, and going from one to two takes 32 xp, then one to six will take 32+48+72+108+162 = 422 xp, while six to seven takes only 243 xp. Furthermore, at level six you're probably a lot better at killing things than you were at level one, so you can accumulate xp faster (possibly six times faster... if power is a linear multiple of level, then time = 243/6 = 40.5 to level from six to seven, compared to 32+48/2+72/3+108/4+162/5 = 139.4 to level from one to six).

Of course, if Wanda decides to power-level you off of Ansom's hard work, there's no telling how fast you might accumulate xp.


Wouldn't that be a geometric progression and not an exponential progression?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby AngryAngel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:57 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The thing is, the battle for Jetstone really is borderline RbtC; Jetstone won't have to win by relying on Tremennis (may he be croaked terribly) and his resourcefulness. Rather, Jetstone will win by Charlie's off-screen resourcefulness which whatever Gez says, it's a bit of a let-down.


I'm not getting how the forthcoming battle is going to be a slam-dunk victory for the RCC2. We know GK has been all but unstoppable up 'til now. We know Jetstone is preparing to defend their capital. We know Faq is there to help. We know Charlescomm is assisting Faq. We know Janis hinted to Sizemore that the coming battle was important, and concerned Parson. And that is all we know.

We don't know what Janis knows or thinks about the coming battle. We don't know if Jetstone, even with the help of Faq and Charlescomm, can stop GK from taking Spacerock. We don't know how much help Charlie is lending. Jillian considered his force 'significant' but no number was given. Also, we don't know if Jillian knows how many archons Charlie has. We know, but that's different than Jillian knowing. The summer updates said Charlie had around six hundred archons, with eighty percent of them out on jobs or waiting near hotspots to be hired. Assuming that hasn't changed much, that leaves 120 archons to play with. Since Charlie likes to play it safe, he may have sent sixty of them to help Jillian, maybe less since he's not getting paid to do this. Depending on how many archons Jillian has seen or heard of working one job in the past, sixty archons might seem like a massive commitment on his part, when that isn't really the case.

The gist of all this is: we don't know anything about how the coming battle will turn out. We've gotten a few hints, that have led to some wild speculation (and it's funny to see the spec swing back and forth between blow-out wins for GK and Jetstone), but in the end we have no idea what is coming.

Sorry, ranting.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby AllPurposeNerd » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:03 pm

ErfNch wrote:
Text Updates 006 wrote:The upkeep for herself, three Warlords, and all of these heavies (and for Titans' sake, a Caster) would have been a lot more than her purse could have supported as a Barbarian


We know Charlie funded the contract for Vanna, so basically Jillian wouldn't have to pay for her upkeep, and the "titan's sake" seems to imply that Jillian is relieved (about having finally popped a caster?).

Seriously?

ErfNch wrote:if this hooded character was Vanna, then the Turnamancer wouldn't have been revealed so fast in the updates to be shadowed afterward

What? Why not? That doesn't even make sense. Jesus, people. It's Vanna. White mage outfit. Vanna White. Turned letters for Wheel of Fortune. Turnamancer. Vanna. White. Turning. This isn't anywhere near as complicated as you're making it.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby SteveMB » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:37 pm

The Shadow wrote:One thing we don't know is whether "alliance" is associative or not. That is, if Transylvito is allied with Jetstone, and Jetstone is allied with Haggar, is Transylvito automatically allied to Haggar as well?

Allied sides take their turn at the same time. That requires it to be an associative thing.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Necromas » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:00 pm

Hm, looks like her caster is wearing white mage robes.

I wonder if the decrypted and/or uncroaked have a weakness to healing magic.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:04 pm

SteveMB wrote:
The Shadow wrote:One thing we don't know is whether "alliance" is associative or not. That is, if Transylvito is allied with Jetstone, and Jetstone is allied with Haggar, is Transylvito automatically allied to Haggar as well?

Allied sides take their turn at the same time. That requires it to be an associative thing.


Rats. I was going to advocate secret alliances are possible. Mostly due to Parson mentioning them in book one with some credibility. You seem to be right. I wonder if a secret ally can move on your turn, even if you move on someone else's turn?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby HandofShadows » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:22 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:You're wrong about Part 2, it would not be blank pages. Rather, several very fan-servicey images of Wanda in various outfits doing things with/to the Jetstone family and Jillian.


And that would increse traffic here by 2000%. :mrgreen:
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