Book 2 – Text Updates 006

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Llelldorin » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:24 pm

menge101 wrote:Also, I agree that there is nothing demonstrating that Charlescomm is part of RCC2 now. I forgot about Archons being hired out and joining a side. It seems odd to me that Charlie would hire out a huge force of Archons though. I guess I'm going to be unhappy with some detail until all is revealed.

Edit: I was suspecting an overwhelming force of Archons. Something like every single available unit. So large a force that it would be suspiciously unaffordable by Faq. But whatever, I'm going to stop speculating and wait for the reveal.


If I had to guess, it looks like Transylvito is setting up Faq as a sort of shell corporation to slip Charlescomm into RCC2 without the RCC2 main leadership knowing. Don King, remember, got that last missive from Unaroyal, and so is exquisitely aware of the dangers that decryption poses. That'd also explain why the entire Transylvitan high command is sitting around on Mount Mofo eating meat pies, instead of being anywhere near the Space Rock battlespace.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby teratorn » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:29 pm

Do we know the names of Faq cities? In the wiki it is assumed the main city is also named Faq, but it gives no reference for that.

Unaroyal, Jetstone, Transylvito are not the name of their capitals. These seem to be tribe names (at least we know that is the case for Jetstone). Strangely Stanley's side is always referred to as Gobwin Knob instead of Plaid.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby menge101 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:37 pm

SteveMB wrote:Allied sides take their turn at the same time. That requires it to be an associative thing.


I agree to the strictest interpretation of that statement.

I think there is a problem with nomenclature that we are stumbling on. Faq and Transylvito, for example, may be "allies"(friends), but I don't think they are required to formally be in "alliance"(sharing turn). Breaking your alliance(sharing turn) with a side does not mean ceasing to be their ally(friend). We saw this when Transylvito broke from RCC1 in order to pursue Stanley. Transylvito left the RCC1, but did not cease to be an ally(friend) of Jetstone.

I think being in an alliance(sharing turn) is a agreement to share forces and resources. Not a description of the diplomatic relationship. From that I believe that two sides may diplomatically be allies, without being in an alliance.
Last edited by menge101 on Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Llelldorin » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:38 pm

teratorn wrote:Do we know the names of Faq cities? In the wiki it is assumed the main city is also named Faq, but it gives no reference for that.

Unaroyal, Jetstone, Transylvito are not the name of their capitals. These seem to be tribe names (at least we know that is the case for Jetstone). Strangely Stanley's side is always referred to as Gobwin Knob instead of Plaid.


They're Otoh and Kibo, described by Vinny as "glorified farms."
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby menge101 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:53 pm

The Shadow wrote:I doubt you *can* be allied to two sides at war.

One thing we don't know is whether "alliance" is associative or not. That is, if Transylvito is allied with Jetstone, and Jetstone is allied with Haggar, is Transylvito automatically allied to Haggar as well? I doubt it, given how weird things would get for Charlie in that situation, but it's not impossible.


This is exactly why I think there is a difference between being a diplomatic ally(friend) an being mechanically allied(share turn). There is no reason you can't diplomatically be allies(friend) of two sides at war with each other. Per proposed canon, unled units in an alliance(share turn) will not attack each other. For two sides at war with each other that would seem fairly stupid to be allied(share turn) through having a mutual ally(friend).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Dr Pepper » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:55 pm

fractal wrote:
Gez wrote:Who said Ansom (for example) was popped last night? Getting to level 10 probably took a long time. Progression through levels is exponential. It takes more time to go from level 6 to 7 than from level 1 all the way to 6.

What are you basing that conclusion on? Even if levels are exponential, each one could require something like 50% more xp than the level before it. If that is true, and going from one to two takes 32 xp, then one to six will take 32+48+72+108+162 = 422 xp, while six to seven takes only 243 xp. Furthermore, at level six you're probably a lot better at killing things than you were at level one, so you can accumulate xp faster (possibly six times faster... if power is a linear multiple of level, then time = 243/6 = 40.5 to level from six to seven, compared to 32+48/2+72/3+108/4+162/5 = 139.4 to level from one to six).

Of course, if Wanda decides to power-level you off of Ansom's hard work, there's no telling how fast you might accumulate xp.


The idea that you can get the experience points for killing someone and then get them fully functional on your side as well, seems to me awfully unbalanced. I bet we're going to find out that you don't get ep for killing the decrypted.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby starburst98 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:08 pm

how many turns do you think the oldest unit is? if it's less the 7600(about 21 years) then parson would technically be the oldest person in the game.... an adult in a kid's game.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Calemyr » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:10 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:
ErfNch wrote:
Text Updates 006 wrote:The upkeep for herself, three Warlords, and all of these heavies (and for Titans' sake, a Caster) would have been a lot more than her purse could have supported as a Barbarian


We know Charlie funded the contract for Vanna, so basically Jillian wouldn't have to pay for her upkeep, and the "titan's sake" seems to imply that Jillian is relieved (about having finally popped a caster?).

Seriously?

ErfNch wrote:if this hooded character was Vanna, then the Turnamancer wouldn't have been revealed so fast in the updates to be shadowed afterward

What? Why not? That doesn't even make sense. Jesus, people. It's Vanna. White mage outfit. Vanna White. Turned letters for Wheel of Fortune. Turnamancer. Vanna. White. Turning. This isn't anywhere near as complicated as you're making it.

Thinking too hard before you leap to conclusions will send you sailing clear over the right answer every time.


Vanna is working for Faq (through Charlie). We know this. It would all be a very fitting, thought out joke. We accept this. It is, however, really screwed up once the meta-story gets involved. Vanna has already been introduced, including a brief history and talent rundown. She is, to some degree, a known quantity. The white clad Caster is a very pointedly unknown quantity - never showing the Caster's face, never mentioning the Caster's name, not even indicating so much as a gender. It is, from a narrative standpoint, rather awkward to make a point of introducing a character and then, when actually introducing them, to pretend they're a mystery the audience. It doesn't feel right, it doesn't mesh, so some people are reluctant to accept the theory that it's Vanna as indisputed fact.

As for arguments for why it wouldn't be Vanna, it has already been mentioned that Jillian's internal dialogue can be read two ways. Either she's cursing to herself over the thought of how much Vanna would have cost her when she was a barbarian, or she's relieved that she finally got a Caster after 40+ turns of trying. Given that it was considered odd that she hadn't popped at least one more than twenty turns ago, this second interpretation is certainly a valid one, whether you share it or not. Additionally, Vanna's job was to get her heir popped as quickly as possible, and you can be sure that if Parson has to walk his patrol in order to do his job, Vanna can't phone it in either.

In short, conservation of characters suggests it should be Vanna, but narrative consistency suggests it isn't. Since this has been a rather well written story so far, also considering that the story has always had a larger than usual cast and that we are still in the beginning of a book that has introduced a glut of new characters already, I would put more weight on narrative consistency. All told, I'd put the odds at 65% that this is a new caster loyal to Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby AngryAngel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:14 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:The idea that you can get the experience points for killing someone and then get them fully functional on your side as well, seems to me awfully unbalanced. I bet we're going to find out that you don't get ep for killing the decrypted.


Probably the mechanics of Erfworld differentiate between killing someone in battle and killing a helpless prisoner (or units that are 'too low' for your level) and adjust the amount of xps you get appropriately. That would also explain why high levels are harder to achieve: units that would actually give xps are rare, and there are no 'high level zones' in Erfworld for you to level up in.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Watsit Hoohow » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:43 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:What? Why not? That doesn't even make sense. Jesus, people. It's Vanna. White mage outfit. Vanna White. Turned letters for Wheel of Fortune. Turnamancer. Vanna. White. Turning. This isn't anywhere near as complicated as you're making it.

Thinking too hard before you leap to conclusions will send you sailing clear over the right answer every time.


I'm not sure it should be entirely ruled out whether or not it's Vanna. It's just kind of suspicious that the identity of the caster would be hidden like this, not to mention what purpose a turnamancer would hold here. There's some associative identity speculations or whathaveyou, but plotwise there're also some speculations to be made. Until the big reveal I'm not going to put all my nickels in the same boot.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Angband » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:13 pm

Calemyr wrote:As for arguments for why it wouldn't be Vanna, it has already been mentioned that Jillian's internal dialogue can be read two ways. Either she's cursing to herself over the thought of how much Vanna would have cost her when she was a barbarian, or she's relieved that she finally got a Caster after 40+ turns of trying. Given that it was considered odd that she hadn't popped at least one more than twenty turns ago, this second interpretation is certainly a valid one, whether you share it or not.


Yes, there are two ways to interpret the dialog -- one is to actually read what she read, and the other is to totally misinterpret it.

Text Update 006 wrote:The upkeep for herself, three Warlords, and all of these heavies (and for Titans' sake, a Caster) would have been a lot more than her purse could have supported as a Barbarian, even if she'd had the mercenary income to fill it up every turn.


The part in bold is talking about the physical limitations of her purse. She could not, personally, have carried enough schmuckers to pay for the upkeep, even if she had a source of income to cover it. That's it. That's all the sentence means. The "Titans' sake, a Caster" clause is part of the list of the units she has to pay upkeep on. It's referring to the fact that paying upkeep on casters is really expensive -- not that she finally got sent a caster.

Calemyr wrote:Additionally, Vanna's job was to get her heir popped as quickly as possible, and you can be sure that if Parson has to walk his patrol in order to do his job, Vanna can't phone it in either.


We don't know that. It could be that just having a Turnamancer on your side is sufficient to effect the change. It could be that having a Turnamancer in the city when unit production is set is sufficient (which is most consistent with the phrase used, "Having a Turnamancer reduced the production of an heir by twenty turns," as opposed to `having a turnamancer made each turn spent popping 50% more efficient` or somesuch). It could also be that Vanna did what she could to reduce popping time, and then had to leave on the mission before she had done all she could, because her talents were more urgently needed on the mission.

Calemyr wrote:In short, conservation of characters suggests it should be Vanna, but narrative consistency suggests it isn't.


How is it more "narratively consistent" to produce an entirely new caster out of nowhere?

Calemyr wrote: Since this has been a rather well written story so far, also considering that the story has always had a larger than usual cast and that we are still in the beginning of a book that has introduced a glut of new characters already, I would put more weight on narrative consistency. All told, I'd put the odds at 65% that this is a new caster loyal to Faq.


Go back and look at the summer update where Jillian leaves on her mission. That update is set 55 turns after TBfGK; the ending paragraph is some indeterminate number of days after that. Note that there is no mention whatsoever of a second caster before Jillian left. Note that we now know that Jillian left Faq with a caster. Note that the only Faq caster we have been told of is Vanna. Note that there are two in-story features for that caster being Vanna (Vanna White/White Mage and "never says much").

Therefore, for that caster to be anyone BUT Vanna would be a glaring example of narrative INconsistency.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby ErfNch » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:45 pm

AllPurposeNerd wrote:Thinking too hard before you leap to conclusions...


Obviously there are good reasons for this caster to be Vanna (note that never having seen the american Wheel of Fortune, I was just totally ignorant of the "White" joke), it's just suspicious that she isn't nanmed now though we know her name from previous updates (again summer updates ain't part of Books, which may explain this change) ... sad thing is you precisely deleted my "leap to conclusion" out of the quote :

ErfNch wrote:Of course, we'll only know for sure when his/her indentity is eventually revealed.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Infidel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:47 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Although - does Vanna the letter turner ever talk on Wheel of Fortune? If not I guess that would also fit in with Jillian's rather quite mystery caster.


I think that our Turnamacer will always be TURNED away from the camera, so we will never see her face. Just as the dittomancer repeats himself and teh Foolamancer speaks in riddles, and the Croakamaner is always depressed.

--

Oh, and I'll just say right now that I was also right when I said that Wanda should have used normal scouting techniques even if she did decrypt Oss. Then she would have had a chance of finding this mysterious force of Archons somewhere in the battlespace. Intelligence isn't about preferring one method to another, but correlating all the available information to draw conclusions.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:28 pm

HandofShadows wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:You're wrong about Part 2, it would not be blank pages. Rather, several very fan-servicey images of Wanda in various outfits doing things with/to the Jetstone family and Jillian.


And that would increse traffic here by 2000%. :mrgreen:



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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby theseus2x » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:40 pm

teratorn wrote:Do we know the names of Faq cities? In the wiki it is assumed the main city is also named Faq, but it gives no reference for that.

Unaroyal, Jetstone, Transylvito are not the name of their capitals. These seem to be tribe names (at least we know that is the case for Jetstone). Strangely Stanley's side is always referred to as Gobwin Knob instead of Plaid.


Speculation : Maybe Saline and the plaid tribe did not originally make their capital at GK?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Gez » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:44 pm

Faq's production queue was set on popping a heir. A caster seems doubtful in these circumstances.

Dr Pepper wrote:The idea that you can get the experience points for killing someone and then get them fully functional on your side as well, seems to me awfully unbalanced. I bet we're going to find out that you don't get ep for killing the decrypted.


1. Erfworld is not "balanced". It's not a game. And balance how? Is the arkanoid brick balanced against the paddle? Is a Doom demon balanced against the space marine? In a game sorta like Erfworld, Heroes of Might & Magic, there were these absolutely broken artifacts (sword of armageddon, cloak of the lich king, etc.) that were available in single-player campaign. You needed them against the odds from that campaign. That was how they were balanced. In multiplayer, they weren't available. Erfworld is not a game. It's not in multiplayer tournament mode.

2. How would your proposed idea work?
Step 1: you croak a normal unit. You gain XP at that moment. Yes, the XP gain is instantaneous. See how Bogroll leveled twice before being croaked.
Step 2: someone uncroak or decrypt the croaked unit. Your XP vanish? Potentially making you delevel? That's idiotic.
Or, since you said "no exp for killing the uncroaked", then the croaker keeps his hard-earned XP. Makes more sense. But let's go to step 3...
Step 3: an enemy unit dusts your uncroaked/decrypted unit. He gains no XP for that kill. How would this be more balanced? Your units gain XP, you gain extra units, and the enemy cannot gain XP from your losses.

So it has been established that, any way you cut it, uncroaked and decrypted give the appropriate amount of XPs to both their croaker and their duster. Anything else wouldn't make sense at all.

Infidel wrote:Oh, and I'll just say right now that I was also right when I said that Wanda should have used normal scouting techniques even if she did decrypt Oss. Then she would have had a chance of finding this mysterious force of Archons somewhere in the battlespace. Intelligence isn't about preferring one method to another, but correlating all the available information to draw conclusions.

But then she wouldn't be an arrogant witch overconfident in her glorious Titan-given powers.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Calemyr » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:44 pm

Summer Updates – 049 wrote:Vanna had been the perfect solution. Having a Turnamancer reduced the production of an heir by twenty turns, and with funds coming in from Transylvito, Vanna was able to boost Otoh and Kibo's production drastically. Don King was very happy, though he would not be if he ever found out it was Charlie who had funded Vanna's contract. Even Vinny didn't know about that.


I mention this for two reasons. First, because this entry was written (as was this one) from Jillian's perspective, and she referred to Vanna as "Vanna", not as "the Caster". While this could simply be Jillian isolating herself from Vanna, she also speaks of Duncan as a person, creating an inconsistency that bothers some people. Second, because it plainly states that Our Lady of the Spinnin' Letters isn't spinning on Jillian's dime. Again, she could be speaking entirely hypothetically ("Hey! I could pay her upkeep nowadays, isn't that nifty."), but that is not solid enough to be treated as absolute fact. I would point out that she never indicates the Caster she's considering is Vanna.

I'm not saying it isn't Vanna, I'm saying that there is insufficient evidence to support the theory's preeminence. All that supports it is the fact that the character exists in her faction and it would be a valid joke. That's enough to make it a worthy theory to state, but not enough to dismiss all others that rival it.

Edit: As for the narrative consistency argument, that one is really rather simple. That point wasn't made in favor of a Faq-born caster, it was made against Vanna. Jillian isn't thinking of the Caster in the same way she thought of Vanna. Whoever this Caster is, it hasn't proven itself to her, hasn't become personal to her yet. Maybe it's a Faq special, maybe it's another Merc hired for Charlie's plan. Either way, there is a wall in Jillian's mind that isn't there when she thinks of Vanna.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Rogerborg » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:06 pm

Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah. Blah blah blah blah, blah. Blah blah! Blah, blah blah blah,blah blah, blah: blah blah blah, blah. Blah blah blah blah, blah blah.

Show, don't tell.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Sinrus » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:14 pm

teratorn wrote:Unaroyal, Jetstone, Transylvito are not the name of their capitals. These seem to be tribe names (at least we know that is the case for Jetstone). Strangely Stanley's side is always referred to as Gobwin Knob instead of Plaid.


Yes, Unaroyal and Transylvito are the names of the capitals. Gobwin Knob is the name of the city and the side, like Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 006

Postby Hobgobwin » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:21 pm

Rogerborg wrote:Blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah. Blah blah blah blah, blah. Blah blah! Blah, blah blah blah,blah blah, blah: blah blah blah, blah. Blah blah blah blah, blah blah.

Show, don't tell.


Shouldn't that only apply to the comic aspect of Erfworld?
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