Book 2 – Text Updates 007

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:37 pm

Thydron wrote:that wasn't the point - the point was they couldn't critique the techniques used to make the food, only the finished dish, and we don't have a finished story to critique with erfworld yet.



I still don't see where the distinction between "subjective" and "opinion" plays into it. Your analogy is also flawed, as if we consider the writer and artist of Erfworld to be the chefs, then we're never privvy to their cooking techiques: we don't know what techniques they use, per se. In this case, their "cooking techniques" are how, where, and when they do their work and with what implements (i.e. a computer, hand drawing, etc). No one I've seen has seriously critiqued any of those.

Now, the book as we've seen it so far may not be the entire MEAL, but critiquing the opening is like saying "I didn't care for the appetizer", it's NOT like saying "the chef used the wrong pan".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Shoki » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:55 pm

Firstly critics do comment on their techniques as they can tell when something is seared poorly as to a perfectly seared scallop or when something is braised too short. In fact there very little they can't complain about but still it poor show to not start doing it till the end.


I'd say a writers techniques would be foreshodow/plot/literation/allusion/satire ect.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Paracelsus » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:59 pm

I don't know about the rest of you, but a part of me is hoping Sofa King uses rap or hip-hop dance fighting.
Pop 'n lock, baby. Pop 'n lock.

Plus watching someone do a quintuple headspin in this art style would probably be worth the price of admission.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:41 pm

Whoop Whoop, y'all! We're Sofa King here and we Sofa King rule. We dance with the sharks so get outta the pool!
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Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Raza » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:42 pm

Anton Gaist wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:I'd LOVE to see a "Critique" tag, that works in EXACTLY the same way as the spoiler tag, that I would know to simply avoid.
Either that, or have all of the self-styled critics start their own Critique threads, so I can skip those unless I'm in the mood for it. I realize that's too much to ask for, though.

I read the threads on the updates because people call attention to details I missed - artwork, puns, etc. - that help me enjoy the work further.
Purely selfish on my part, but if you're not helping me enjoy this work, you're not adding anything, and I'd like a means by which I could ignore you. :D


I agree with you. A Critique tag would be good, having the self-styled critics go away somewhere I don't even have to know they are would be even better.

I have a better idea. How about we color-code every type of opinion one can have on the comic or it's discussions, and require people mark their posts with them? That way none of us will have to face accidentally reading something we don't already agree with ever again!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Thydron » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:48 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
Thydron wrote:that wasn't the point - the point was they couldn't critique the techniques used to make the food, only the finished dish, and we don't have a finished story to critique with erfworld yet.



I still don't see where the distinction between "subjective" and "opinion" plays into it. Your analogy is also flawed, as if we consider the writer and artist of Erfworld to be the chefs, then we're never privvy to their cooking techiques: we don't know what techniques they use, per se. In this case, their "cooking techniques" are how, where, and when they do their work and with what implements (i.e. a computer, hand drawing, etc). No one I've seen has seriously critiqued any of those.

Now, the book as we've seen it so far may not be the entire MEAL, but critiquing the opening is like saying "I didn't care for the appetizer", it's NOT like saying "the chef used the wrong pan".


well i'm considering the finished object to be the whole story (or at least the book), not each page as it comes - if the story stopped now it wouldn't be a finished work. as for "techniques" i wasn't really referencing how the art was drawn etc, but how the story is being told - i can see where the analogy breaks down & it could get confusing (and to be fair it wasn't my analogy).

basically i don't think you can really judge rapidly updating things like webcomics properly until they've reached an obvious milestone, and the fact some people were guessing what was going to happen (based on very little), and then complaining that what they'd predicted was cliche / bad writing seemed pretty ridiculous
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby OneHugeTuck » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:07 pm

Raza wrote:
I have a better idea. How about we color-code every type of opinion one can have on the comic or it's discussions, and require people mark their posts with them? That way none of us will have to face accidentally reading something we don't already agree with ever again!



That'd be awesome!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Slowness » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:16 pm

Well, it seems I keep calling Tremennis Ossommer and Ossommer Tremmennis... Ahh well, not the end of the world, that one, is it?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby MarbitChow » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:45 am

Spoiler: show
Raza wrote:I have a better idea. How about we color-code every type of opinion one can have on the comic or it's discussions, and require people mark their posts with them? That way none of us will have to face accidentally reading something we don't already agree with ever again!

Seconded! This color shall be used to designate encouragement for another poster's ideas. All posts should be contained in spoilers, so that no one mistakenly sees a post they don't want to see...

(Although honestly, the only 'opinion' post I personally don't want to see is the "This story is going to suck" posts. That's it. Constructive criticism, encouragement, wild speculation, polite expressions of disapproval - they're all cool.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Pax » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:57 am

Lord Kasavin wrote:Something to keep in mind, is everyone's plans are "fluid."

No plan survives contatc with the enemy ... and a whole lot of them don't even survive contact with your own NCO corps.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby fjolnir » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:02 am

that's not true, a well trained army can add "if all else fails- improvise" to the end of any orders, thereby ensuring that at least part of the order can be carried out... :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby DoctorJest » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:11 am

fjolnir wrote:that's not true, a well trained army can add "if all else fails- improvise" to the end of any orders, thereby ensuring that at least part of the order can be carried out... :lol:


That might well be an order but it is not, strictly speaking, a plan
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby teratorn » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:00 am

Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:31 am

teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.


That seems like a really big flaw in Haggars planing. If Jetstone has a way to prevent their fallen from decryption, this could work. For example they bought a mass-uncroaking spell or two from the Mk and use them when they are losing. But if jetstone had a way, GK should now know this.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:37 am

Calemyr wrote:Sammy's original reaction to Ossomer's turning is one of amusement...

That is the theme I drew from this update. The cold revelation that the doomsayer you've always ignored was telling the truth and it may well be that you've only come to understand your fate after it's too late to change it. I suppose your mileage may vary, though.


Yes, I largely agree with your interpretation. My post was a bit unclear (it was late at the time, sorry all ;) ), and it seems Sammy is learning, although still it seems the nature of decryption hasn't spread far and wide (which is what I was getting at). Sammy got it in the end, the captain still hadn't...

build6 wrote:... a bit racist?


I have a gift for understatement. :D

Since they weren't allied to Jetstone previously, they wouldn't have known "first hand" what happened to Unaroyal.


I gather they were allied when Unaroyal fell, and had been for a little while, though I guess they probably wouldn't have been high on the trust/intel relationship at that point.

They clearly never believed what Jetstone was telling them and had no direct evidence to contradict this disbelief ... they'd expected a "conventional" fight, which is a critical error. Hatu pointed out the timing difficulties, but it seems to me there's already a fundamental flaw in their thinking - if GK had won, thanks to the decrypt, they wouldn't necessarily be facing a weakened side, i.e. their thinking that "[w]hichever side won, it would be too weak to defend itself" is wrong.


That is a very good point.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Gez » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:41 am

Paracelsus wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but a part of me is hoping Sofa King uses rap or hip-hop dance fighting.
Pop 'n lock, baby. Pop 'n lock.

Plus watching someone do a quintuple headspin in this art style would probably be worth the price of admission.

I just hope the overlord's name is some reference to Plastic Bertrand, because he's the King of the Divan.
DoctorJest wrote:
fjolnir wrote:that's not true, a well trained army can add "if all else fails- improvise" to the end of any orders, thereby ensuring that at least part of the order can be carried out... :lol:


That might well be an order but it is not, strictly speaking, a plan

If the plan does not plan for problems outside the plan, then it isn't a plan at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby badninja » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:36 pm

teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.


From his reaction it seemed that he knew about the decryption process and was not surprized when it happened, some what. The ease at which it happend as mentioned by other posters got his attention. I feel that Haggar is going to stay loyal and Jillian's surprize will help out but where is Sofa King? They have not been seen since Book 1 and they should be here unlike those TV people.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby theseus2x » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:11 pm

badninja wrote:
teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.


From his reaction it seemed that he knew about the decryption process and was not surprized when it happened, some what. The ease at which it happend as mentioned by other posters got his attention. I feel that Haggar is going to stay loyal and Jillian's surprize will help out but where is Sofa King? They have not been seen since Book 1 and they should be here unlike those TV people.


Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if Haggar changed its plans and legitimately tried to save the capital now.

Supposedly, though, Parson's plan wouldn't give them time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Lord Kasavin » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:15 pm

teratorn wrote:Haggar plan only makes sense if they're not aware of decryption. If they win GK's force will always be stronger than the current
Jetstone army.


No, thats not necessarily true. It would be true only if GK had an advantage, which with Ansom's bonuses, they might. Otherwise, Jetstone could use one soldier to kill two GK forces and GK would only get back half the forces they lost. With the benefit of three casters, attacking the main Jetstone force is likely to result in far greater casualties for GK than for Jetstone, even if they have the forces to prevail in the end.

So, Haggar probably thought Decryption was similar to croakamancy, useful, but not overpowerful. The side with the croakamancer gets some additional forces, but stil has to sacrifice to come out ahead against a sufficient force.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 007

Postby Angband » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:35 pm

Can someone with more knowledge of Sammy Hagar's oeuvre than me please point out some of the song-related puns in this update?
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