Book 2 – Page 14

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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby sebastian » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:05 am

madmaw wrote:My prediction is

Spoiler: show
In the assault Ossomer is killed and Wanda is captured by Jillian (in a role reversal) when the hidden Archons are revealed (not sure how, some kind of game mechanic where Charlie has turned the Archons to Jillians side, sub-alliances?). The chain of command is broken at this stage as Wanda is the true leader of the decrypted, although Ansom is technically in charge. Ansom either refuses to take orders from Stanley/Parson, or simply doesn't communicate with them and does his own thing (which is try to save Wanda), in the process he gets the majority of the decrypted killed and gets captured himself. This is the "confusion" mentioned in the coming turn. Parson is appointed chief warlord because of Ansoms disobedience and attempts to salvage the situation...somehow


Spoiler: show
and he don't communicate with Stanley because Wanda ordered him not to.
oh, delicious irony. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby imgran » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:34 am

The one thing that occurs to me:

Wanda forbid Ansom from telling Stanley.

In theory she did NOT forbid Ansom from telling PARSON.

I think the reversal will come very soon. Either Wanda loses, or she wins and defects/breaks away. Otherwise there won't be any drama and the whole chapter will be about plodding to the finish line as creatively as possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:22 am

imgran wrote:The one thing that occurs to me:

Wanda forbid Ansom from telling Stanley.

In theory she did NOT forbid Ansom from telling PARSON.


Nice, but to repeat myself.

Wanda did not forbid JACK to tell Stanley, or anyone else. I don't think she can (Jack's alive and supposedly loyal to Stanley). So what happened? Minor oversight on Wanda's part? Or she just doesn't really care about what Stanley knows and is just pulling her weight with Ansom?

Either way, I think Stanley will know that Ansom won't take part in the assault.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby raphfrk » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:38 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:I'm not quite sure that is so: "I think there will be an opportunity. This battle you will fight tomorrow, with Jetstone--"... "You don’t need to confirm it. I know. And this battle will be a turning point. I have some Predictamancy on it, among other things. There will be disarray, and you and your Thinkamancer should push him to lead."


Btw, thinking about this. Sizemore should have told Parson to expect something. OTOH, maybe that is why Parson suggested that they go scout (his bad feeling was actually due to Sizemore's info).

Ofc, predictions seem to be set in stone, so knowing about them doesn't allow you to side-step them.

Of course that he needs to be pushed to lead again makes it sound like he will have some control over it, which also makes it sound like something more is going on, not just Stanley deciding he needs a new Chief Warlord.


If Parson doesn't want to be Chief Warlord, then he can argue against it. That could be the difference. If he puts his mind to it, he might be able to manipulate Stanley into promoting him.

Updog wrote:Or maybe you just can't decrypt a dwagon. end. of.


Since Archons can be decrypted and they seen to be the Dish special unit, it seems reasonable that dwagons can also be decrypted.

Shoki wrote:This reminds me have we seen if uncroaked can be decrypted? I mean it seems odd it hasn't been tried as it might increase the mileage of each unit granted they'd be weaker uncroaked but saying you have no "causalities" be nice.


They probably turn to dust when croaked like decrypted. That was what seemed to happen when Ansom killed them, ofc that could be a pliers special effect.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Wanda did not forbid JACK to tell Stanley, or anyone else. I don't think she can (Jack's alive and supposedly loyal to Stanley). So what happened? Minor oversight on Wanda's part? Or she just doesn't really care about what Stanley knows and is just pulling her weight with Ansom.


Jack and Wanda are nominally equal rank. To contact Stanley requires an archon to establish the link and all the archons obey Wanda. He certainly couldn't force the issue and anyway Ansom has agreed with the plan (by default) and Ansom is Chief Warlord. Maggie wouldn't randomly link to Jack unless ordered (or if Parson asked her).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:56 am

raphfrk wrote:Jack and Wanda are nominally equal rank. To contact Stanley requires an archon to establish the link and all the archons obey Wanda. He certainly couldn't force the issue and anyway Ansom has agreed with the plan (by default) and Ansom is Chief Warlord. Maggie wouldn't randomly link to Jack unless ordered (or if Parson asked her).


I seem to recall that Stanley once requested a telegram link from Maggie. This was when he flew away with the dwagons to Faq, back in Book 1. He had no archons at hand, indeed he's not a caster even. So it may be that you need at least A thinkamancer for a link, but that one is enough and whether it be caller/callee does not matter.

So yeah, if Jack thought Wanda was acting weird, he could inform GK.

Will return with link ...

Here it is. A fine example of Maggie demonstrating that she can call at will (she called Ansom) and being called at will by an ally (if said ally is Stanley anyway).
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Spot » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:05 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Jack and Wanda are nominally equal rank. To contact Stanley requires an archon to establish the link and all the archons obey Wanda. He certainly couldn't force the issue and anyway Ansom has agreed with the plan (by default) and Ansom is Chief Warlord. Maggie wouldn't randomly link to Jack unless ordered (or if Parson asked her).


I seem to recall that Stanley once requested a telegram link from Maggie. This was when he flew away with the dwagons to Faq, back in Book 1. He had no archons at hand, indeed he's not a caster even. So it may be that you need at least A thinkamancer for a link, but that one is enough and whether it be caller/callee does not matter.

So yeah, if Jack thought Wanda was acting weird, he could inform GK.

Will return with link ...

Here it is. A fine example of Maggie demonstrating that she can call at will (she called Ansom) and being called at will by an ally (if said ally is Stanley anyway).


Good catch.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby raphfrk » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:31 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:I seem to recall that Stanley once requested a telegram link from Maggie. This was when he flew away with the dwagons to Faq, back in Book 1. He had no archons at hand, indeed he's not a caster even. So it may be that you need at least A thinkamancer for a link, but that one is enough and whether it be caller/callee does not matter.


It is unclear how that ability works. It could be an Overlord "natural" thinkamancy effect, where you can send a "call me" thinkagram.

So yeah, if Jack thought Wanda was acting weird, he could inform GK.


That is not certain. However, more evidence is that warlords can contact Charlie by thinking hard. However, that can take hours or turns.

So maybe all warlords can contact a Thinkamancer if they think hard. However, the time delay might depend on how hard that Thinkamancer is listening. If you try to connect to Charlie, you are put on hold and dealt with when one of his CSRs is free. Maggie is probably "listening" for contacts from the strike force, so there would likely be little if any delay.

It also says "commander" rather than warlord, so presumably casters are also included.

A fine example of Maggie demonstrating that she can call at will (she called Ansom) and being called at will by an ally (if said ally is Stanley anyway).


Right, the issue is if she can be contacted by all friendly units (or maybe just warlord level units). Clearly, she can contact any friendly unit, well warlords at least. She did that during the battle when conveying Parson's orders.

She can also instruct non-warlord units with regards to movement, as she told the leader-less dwagons to return to GK after the lake/donut of doom of battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby gameboy1234 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:00 pm

raphfrk wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
So yeah, if Jack thought Wanda was acting weird, he could inform GK.


That is not certain. However, more evidence is that warlords can contact Charlie by thinking hard. However, that can take hours or turns.


I agree here. If nothing else, Duty for a caster is a lot less than Duty for the Chief Warlord (Ansom). Ansom is obliged to tell Stanley (except Wanda orders him not too). Jack however, as long as he's getting orders that are generally useful to Stanley ("We'll attack this enemy city, you will help") probably isn't obliged to report the details of each plan to Stanley.

Jack as a commander could probably order an Archon to use her Thinkamancy to contact Stanley, but as long as there's higher ranking commander units available (any warlords, Wanda, etc.) I doubt he'd subvert the chain of command and do so.



Here's what I'm thinking. Wanda just left explicit instructions to Ansom to retreat if anything goes wrong. The pliers will probably compel him to do so, regardless what Stanley or Parson might want. So any failed action will leave Wanda alone and exposed. If Wanda is captured, there'll be a junior level warlord in charge (probably Ossomer) who may not really have any idea what to do (Ossomer seems a bit thick to me, maybe why Slately had Tramennis with him). That would be a good time for Parson to take charge. My 2 schmuckers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Shoki » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:52 pm

They probably turn to dust when croaked like decrypted. That was what seemed to happen when Ansom killed them, ofc that could be a pliers special effect"


Hmmm i think i recall Jillian chopping croaked midair to death with no poof of dust. I'd look back but sadly im on a 28.8k modem....for the next 3 months. :x
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Sinrus » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:16 pm

at what point in the story?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:34 pm

Sinrus wrote:at what point in the story?


I believe that was the head shot on Leeroy Jenkins when breaking the Dwagon Donut trap.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Sinrus » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:27 pm

Hmm. Yeah, but in the next page, his body's not on the dwagon. It could've just fallen off, but I thought I remembered it saying somewhere that uncroaked get dusted...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby President_Allosaurus » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:08 am

I am intensely interested in the concept of decrypted disobeying the Arkenplier wielder. Ansom very much is not a total slave, wanting to disobey and betray his mistress, but unable to.

I want to see where this goes.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:56 am

raphfrk wrote:It is unclear how that ability works. It could be an Overlord "natural" thinkamancy effect, where you can send a "call me" thinkagram.

{...}

more evidence is that warlords can contact Charlie by thinking hard. However, that can take hours or turns.


The Charlie example might not be the best; after all Charlie is neutral, as opposed to a thinkamancer on the same side. We also know that Thinkamancers are aware of the number of troops of their side even when those troops are far away- that's how Unaroyal's Thinkamancer was able to inform Transylvito of the TPK at GK, near the end of Book 1.

Granted I can't remember direct evidence of a caster calling a Thinkamancer, but it does not sound unlikely.

gameboy1234 wrote:Jack however, as long as he's getting orders that are generally useful to Stanley ("We'll attack this enemy city, you will help") probably isn't obliged to report the details of each plan to Stanley.

Jack as a commander could probably order an Archon to use her Thinkamancy to contact Stanley, but as long as there's higher ranking commander units available (any warlords, Wanda, etc.) I doubt he'd subvert the chain of command and do so.


For one, no I don't think he'd need an archon for that, see above.

The second issue is key: does Jack think it's worth calling Stanley? We have not seen his reaction yet, but if he does not call Stanley then to me that means Wanda's order for Ansom to stay back is not that bad an order, actually.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:46 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The second issue is key: does Jack think it's worth calling Stanley? We have not seen his reaction yet, but if he does not call Stanley then to me that means Wanda's order for Ansom to stay back is not that bad an order, actually.



It's the second one I'm most interested in. The details of communication in Erfworld are odd enough that they could be considered plot-devices by Rob.

I'm not sure it's just does Jack think it's worth it. The part I'm focusing on is when is Jack Duty bound to call Stanley. Since Duty is something that lies heaviest on the Chief Warlord and other Leaders in a stack, I assume Jack has little duty to call Stanley while they are still around. If all of the other Commanders got croaked, or if Jack was ordered off on his own with a stack (or without one) then he'd be the commander and obliged to start checking with Stanley. At least, that's how I see it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby raphfrk » Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:44 pm

President_Allosaurus wrote:I am intensely interested in the concept of decrypted disobeying the Arkenplier wielder. Ansom very much is not a total slave, wanting to disobey and betray his mistress, but unable to.


Maybe Wanda counts as a second Ruler for loyalty purposes. Each decrypted would have 2 loyalty scores.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Sinrus » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:00 pm

I don't think that the decrypted are really loyal to Stanley at all. I think that they're loyal to Wanda, and since she doesn't want to Alarm his toolship into doing anything non-beneficiary to her, she ordered the decrypted to act like they're loyal to Stanley, but to follow her when orders contradict.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:22 pm

raphfrk wrote:Right, the issue is if she can be contacted by all friendly units (or maybe just warlord level units).


This isn't very definitive, but In this text update, "Caesar checked in with Bunny" while Caesar was in the field.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:10 am

Good call.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:53 pm

I don't think Jack's Duty and Loyalty are really relevant. Loyalty is the score that acts against double dealing. If a unit has a Loyalty of 0, it won't turn to the first side it finds, it just wants out, and will do so when beneficial. Same with Duty. Jack's Duty may be low (unknown) but if it's beneficial for him to call Stanley, he will, regardless of Duty. Besides, his friendship with Parson goes beyond stats. If he suspects something, he'll send his mind out to Maggie (or get an archon to call her), for Parson's sake, if not for Duty.
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