Book 2 – Page 14

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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby PlotArmour » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:46 am

1) The formation of purples and reds in the middle will be because the other units are going to screen the red and purples for the tower attack.
2) Wanda isn't dying. She's got alot of development to go. The only way she dies is if she can bring herself back with the pliers.
3) Stanley can't disband Wanda. Not only because she's not anywhere near him, but because it's not even clear she owes him any duty at all, we don't know enough about her backstory. Plus, all she has to do is turn, and she would be safe. In addition, Wanda has an artifact, and thus may not be subject to disbanding anymore (if she ever was).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Sinrus » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:48 am

And it would be the most freaking idiotic thing Stanley has ever done. And we're talking about a guy who made his Chief Warlord a dude name Temporary.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:53 am

Sinrus wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:
AllPurposeNerd wrote:Just in case there was any doubt as to who was really running the show for Gobwin Knob (as she has been since book 1).


Oh, I disagree. I find GK's leadership structure as complex as a Byzantine court. I mean, Parson put Wanda in her place under his leadership during the FBfGK. However, Stanley is still the Overlord and can disband anyone with a thought. At the end of the day, I've never seen Wanda disobey an order from Stanley, even if it was against her wishes and what she believed was best for GK.


How can it be as complex as a Byzantine court? There were only five people on GK's side for most of Book 1 who could talk. And you've never seen Wanda disobey Stanley? How about page three of Book 1.


FIrst, have you never heard of a figure of speech? Second, Page 3 is just splash pages. If you meant the brief moment when Wanda refused to obey Stanley and promote a "pretty boy," she was a) pretty sure it would lead to his destruction, and b) ultimately convinced him that her plan was better and thus she did not need to disobey orders. Of course, he didn't agree with all of her plan and forced her to cast the spell herself against her better judgement.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby theseus2x » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:02 am

Nows7 wrote:I just wish I could get a bead on Stanly. He chews out parson for being late then he asks Parson's advice, then seems to be defensive of Ansom from Parson.

I feel like cape is a great form of signamancy - it makes him look like a child, as he acts like a child... However children CAN grow up...


I interpret it differently : Stanley wasn't really asking Parson for advice. Stanley was asking for reassurance. Look - Stanley is partially based on GW Bush, who was perceived by many to surround himself with a few dark pedagogues with their own agendas and a legion of 'yes-men'. (I do not claim whether or not this was the reality - let's not turn this into a real-world political debate.) Stanley wanted Parson to say "Great idea, boss!" - in this particular case, Parson was willing to do it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:03 am

Y'know i still feel as though these numbers are more unbalanced than Parson made it seemed
i mean, 68 dwagons + 20? archons vs 26 gwiffens + 6 Meglogwiffs + 9 unipegitaurs... either i'm really underestimating the meglogwiffs and gwiffens or GK's got a pretty clear advantage with raw units
I'd also hazard a quess that Gk's got more and higher level warlords, as we know jillians only has a few...

Granted bonuses may help seriously make the difference...

on GK's side... Wanda's bonus only applies to decrypted troops which would exclude the dwagons... the pliers might also provide an artifact bonus... and it seems like they might be gearing up for dance fighting
if Ansom does not come along then he will not provide his chiefwarlord bonus for all of them (however Parson's calculations were likely under the assumption Ansom would be there)...

Jetstone however does get 3 big bonuses... a bonus from king stately, and bonus from Queen Jillian, and a Chiefwarlord bonus from Duncan Scone.
Dance fighting unknown, and caster unknown

Granted even with those bonus in question is still feels like GK should have a much bigger upperhand... so either i'm underestimating Faq's units, the bonus's granted by rulers, or Jetstone has more units that ossomer did not mention to us in the comic (but told wanda and parson so they are within the calculations); it's possible Ossomer only mentioned the air units in comic to highlight the "unexpected" troops at spacerock as opposed to archery units which were expected as wanda/ansom were not expecting that Ossomer left the capitol COMPLETELY undefended

Updog wrote:I wonder what the significance of the dwagon formations is, yellows in a row up front, greens at the back, reds in the middle and blues and pinks interspersed on either side of the reds.

From what it sounds like from the last comic, Red's and purples may be the type of dwagons best suited for destroying the tower... the formation is built so that the reds and purple's will have protection from all sides while they do the damage that they need to do

Greens use a gas attack, so it might be best to fire that backwards instead of fowards... Yellows use Crap, which seems like it's better for ground troops; thus good for taking out archers (so more useful for firing foward than any other direction)... and the blues and pinks are there to block from air attacks that may come from the sides
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:04 am

Sinrus wrote:And it would be the most freaking idiotic thing Stanley has ever done. And we're talking about a guy who made his Chief Warlord a dude name Temporary.


What, disbanding Wanda? Possibly, but after this stunt I don't think so. Sure, Wanda is a very competent caster, has atuned to an Arkentool giving GK an enormous advantage with the ability to decrypt the defeated and fallen, and has in general been a voice of reason to Stanley's "eccentric moments." However, all advantages must also be measured against liabilities. Is a unit that has twice that stats and four times the cost actually better than its cheaper counterpart? Wanda has been "out of control." Her desicion to sideline Ansom (and its going to contribute to a disaster for GK) just pushed that liability column up much higher.

I very much disagree that Stanley can't disband Wanda. Unless there's some rule technicality such as Wanda's actually a mercenary and not a GK unit, than the idea of being immune to disbanding is completely alien to Erfworld.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby theseus2x » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:16 am

Regarding Stanley and Wanda : I can't be sure, but I'll bet you 100 Schmuckers that Stanley CAN'T disband Wanda. I'm convinced Wanda isn't actually under Stanley's control in any way except for Wanda being REALLY intent on ACTING like she was following Stanley. This was discussed a bit at the end of Book 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:29 am

Gk's leadership structure is complex in a sense

on paper it's Stanely > Ansom > wanda = Parson
in practise it's more like Stanely > Wanda > Ansom, and Parson is consider both below Ansom but at the same level as Wanda
However We could in a sense rank Wanda a bit high if we take into account that she Knows how to manipulate Stanely and get what she wants out of him.
Not to mention since Wanda "owns" the decrypted, the units will give her more respect than Parson thus giving her more leverage
One nice question would be to find out what would happen is Stanely gave a decrypted an order that conflicted with Wanda's... though i think my money would be on Wanda in that case...

Granted, one thing i was never clear on is if casters are on the same level as warlords or if they are below
PlotArmour wrote:3) Stanley can't disband Wanda. Not only because she's not anywhere near him, but because it's not even clear she owes him any duty at all, we don't know enough about her backstory. Plus, all she has to do is turn, and she would be safe. In addition, Wanda has an artifact, and thus may not be subject to disbanding anymore (if she ever was).

First, it was NEVER stated that the ruler must be near a unit to disband it (in every turnbased strategy game, "distance" is not a factor for disbanding units)...
Second of all, Wanda is a unit of GK, as such she is not just duty bound to Stanely, but subject to his rule...
Third, i highly doubt a unit can turn "just like that" more than likely i would say that a ruler would have to accept them, if this were the case it would also require her being able to contact the ruler (and stanely can disband at the speed of thought); but either way, the fact of the matter is that wanda has very few friends at this point, and many sides would not accept her or may very likely disband her the moment she turned to them....

the ONLY thing that might protect Wanda from disbanding MIGHT be the pliers

theseus2x wrote:Regarding Stanley and Wanda : I can't be sure, but I'll bet you 100 Schmuckers that Stanley CAN'T disband Wanda. I'm convinced Wanda isn't actually under Stanley's control in any way except for Wanda being REALLY intent on ACTING like she was following Stanley. This was discussed a bit at the end of Book 1.

As long as she is a unit of GK, then she is subject to Stanely's rule... and Stanely would KNOW whether or not she was a "GK unit"; much like how they know decrypted gobwins are "GK units" and not "Natural allies"
The only thing that might protect her is the pliers
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby PlotArmour » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:32 am

I don't agree. Plus, she can spin off her own side, like Ossomer was going to.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:36 am

theseus2x wrote:Regarding Stanley and Wanda : I can't be sure, but I'll bet you 100 Schmuckers that Stanley CAN'T disband Wanda. I'm convinced Wanda isn't actually under Stanley's control in any way except for Wanda being REALLY intent on ACTING like she was following Stanley. This was discussed a bit at the end of Book 1.


This is a pet peeve of mine. People putting Wanda on a giant pedestal. Instead of thinking about the laws of the universe, they think about the character. Elsewhere, we've seen that escaping the death of a ruler is very difficult. Did Wanda discover some super original way to be an exception? I don't think so. Lets call a spade a spade. When she says she's "loyal to fate," I interpret it as nothing more than rationalizing a low loyalty score. She sold out her original side. She's either a dutiless (in a world where doing one's duty is the raison d'etre for existence) turncoat, or serving some "higher" calling. She claims its the latter, but I got a feeling "higher" calling is "what's best for Wanda."

So, maybe she'd turn, if she can find ready side to take her and strong enough to withstand GK's retribution. Jetstone certainly won't have her. Jillian might, but I think she'd realize whatever her and Wanda shared in the past, Wanda has moved on to villain territory.

Of course, this is mostly moot. I never suggested that Wanda be disbanded in the actually story, merely said her behavior was worth such a punishment.

P.S. Forming a new side appears to be limited to royalty.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:37 am

PlotArmour wrote:I don't agree. Plus, she can spin off her own side, like Ossomer was going to.


Ossomer was capable of spinning off to his own side because he was a HEIR
Jillian did not disband when her father croaked because she was a HEIR
And hell the heir most likely needs to ruler's permission to start a new side

And that's the keyword "heir"
Wanda is not an heir, she is just a caster, a unit...
the ONLY possiblity that she might be able to spin her own side is IF the pliers give her such an ability; such as they give her the status of a "ruler with no kingdom" like Jillian was (this may also protect her from disbanding)... but that is pure speculation as nothing so far has indicated this
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby PlotArmour » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:46 am

Jillian did not disband when her father croaked because she was a HEIR

How did Sizemore fare when Saline IV was croaked?
Ossomer was capable of spinning off to his own side because he was a HEIR

Pure speculation.

Either way it is speculation, but there are alot of hints and evidence to back my argument, and very little to support the counter argument.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:49 am

PlotArmour wrote:
Jillian did not disband when her father croaked because she was a HEIR

How did Sizemore fare when Saline IV was croaked?


Uh, Sizemore was with Stanley when Saline was croaked, you know, the heir of GK?

Ossomer was capable of spinning off to his own side because he was a HEIR

Pure speculation.

Either way it is speculation, but there are alot of hints and evidence to back my argument, and very little to support the counter argument.


You know, I've been saving this for a while, but its time.

There are some comments I need to make regarding PlotArmour. To organize my discussion, I suggest that we take one step back in the causal chain and reverse the devolutionary course that PlotArmour has set for us. The one thing that's central to all of his uncompanionable, puerile practices is a desire to exploit the general public's short attention span in order to jump on everything that is written, said, or even implied and label it as either evil or wretched. I call this the New McCarthyism. The old McCarthyism was concerned only with forcing me to fall firmly into the hands of the most uncompromising bribe-seekers you'll ever see. Although that was bad enough, the objection may still be raised that PlotArmour's beliefs are not worth getting outraged about. At first glance this sounds almost believable yet the following must be borne in mind: Irrationalism, in this case, is a tactic tied to a broader strategy of granting PlotArmour the ability to assail all that is holy. I could write pages on the subject, but the following should suffice. It is not news that PlotArmour's assertions represent a calculated assault on diversity within our community. What speaks volumes, though, is that what I have been writing up to this point is not what I initially intended to write in this letter. Instead, I decided it would be far more productive to tell you that PlotArmour is off his trolley. Excuse me; that's not entirely correct. What I meant to say is that Nature is a wonderful teacher. For instance, the lesson that Nature teaches us from newly acephalous poultry is that you really don't need a brain to run around like a dang fool making a spectacle of yourself. Nature also teaches us that it's debatable whether PlotArmour goes ballistic every time I so much as hint that the future is what we make it. However, no one can disagree that PlotArmour believes that he possesses infinite wisdom. That's just wrong. He further believes that this is the best of all possible worlds and that he is the best of all possible people. Wrong again!

Despite what you may have been taught in school, PlotArmour has not increased our safety, security, or happiness by challenging all I stand for. All he's increased by doing that is the girth of his bloated ego. Still, his hypocrisy is transparent. Even the least discerning among us can see right through it. An inner voice tells me that PlotArmour says that he wants to make life better for everyone. Lacking a coherent ideology, however, PlotArmour always ends up breaking down our communities.

I have a problem with PlotArmour's use of the phrase, "We all know that...". With this phrase, he doesn't need to prove his claim that he has a duty to conceal the facts and lie to the rest of us, under oath if necessary, perjuring himself to help disseminate the True Faith of careerism; he merely accepts it as fact. To put it another way, his desire to take over society's eyes, ears, mind, and spirit is both a cause and an effect of what we now see as a global increase in fascism. That said, let me continue. So, sorry for being so long-winded in this letter, but PlotArmour backstabs his patsies.

And thats all I have to say bout PlotArmour.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Hobgobwin » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:57 am

Hmm, I don't see any black/brown dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby PlotArmour » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:58 am

Uh, Sizemore was with Stanley when Saline was croaked, you know, the heir of GK?

Oh, so sizemore surviving had nothing to do with the fact he was Heir... merely that he was near the heir... not the argument you were making, and again, pure speculation.
Wall of text

I stopped reading about a sentence in. Punctuation and paragraphs are your friend.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby haviel » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:06 am

Nice timing! I was hoping for another update before the end of the year. I can't wait to see the Wanda and Jill Showdown. Yeahhhhh!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Angband » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:30 am

PlotArmour wrote:
Uh, Sizemore was with Stanley when Saline was croaked, you know, the heir of GK?

Oh, so sizemore surviving had nothing to do with the fact he was Heir... merely that he was near the heir... not the argument you were making, and again, pure speculation.


Sizemore survived because his side didn't end. His side didn't end because GK had an heir at the point Saline IV died.

There isn't any speculation here, it's in-comic canon. Read panels 4-6.

And furthermore...

PlotArmour wrote:
Ossomer was capable of spinning off to his own side because he was a HEIR

Pure speculation.

Either way it is speculation, but there are alot of hints and evidence to back my argument, and very little to support the counter argument.


Except we know, again from in-comic canon that Royal empires can, in fact, spin off new sides. Fourth paragraph, fifth sentence, "Royal empires split off sometimes into new sides." And since Ossomer is an heir, he must be a royal. So he could very well have started a new side, just like he said in-comic that he would do to Haggar if they didn't join the RCCII. "Unless they accepted alliance, Jetstone would march on the capital and annex Haggar into a greater kingdom, perhaps then spinning it off into a new side with Ossomer himself as King."

And finally...

PlotArmour wrote:
Wall of text

I stopped reading about a sentence in. Punctuation and paragraphs are your friend.


You are quite ignorant of the details of this story, and would do very well to talk less and read more.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby name lips » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:31 am

Updog wrote:Also, why do you think ossomer is opting to use ansom's carpet and not a dwagon, surely a dwagon would boost ossomer's combat ability, unless the carpets provide an as of yet, unseen bonus?

Because Wanda is going to have Jack make Ossomer appear to be Ansom during the negotiations/manipulations stage with Jillian.

That's my guess anyway.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:58 am

Poor Ansom, he just can't catch a break it seems, even with Stanley fully on his side. And now Oss is riding around on his flying carpet like he owns the place. And I do like Parson response to Stanley's misreading of the situation in regards to Wanda.

And I'm also suspicious. Suspicious Wanda has some other reason for wanting to lead. From all appearances it looks like she is going for the throat, but I think there is some irony at work though. Wanda telling Ansom his feelings might interfere? Of course we haven't seen Ansom affected at all by the fact Jillian is there (and from the summer updates we know his feelings towards her were affected by decryption).

And Wanda telling it like it is? The decrypted don't truly belong to GK any more then their original side, they belong to her... which I think it the main problem with the idea decryption is a preferable state of being then the alternative. ;)

Nows7 wrote:I just wish I could get a bead on Stanly. He chews out parson for being late then he asks Parson's advice, then seems to be defensive of Ansom from Parson.


I suspect there is a lot of reasons. Insecurity and doubt maybe, hidden behind the bluster might be some of it. And Parson's advice just served to reinforce what he already had in mind anyway.

gameboy1234 wrote:Yes, Wanda seems to have something up her sleeve. Why else would she be giving directions to Ossomer now, when she could just issue them in battle. Also, Wanda is sure handling a lot of tactical details that I would have expected Parson to handle.


Well, it is sometimes good to have your commander know what needs to happen before you get to the point it needs to happen at.

And true, Wanda seems to be considering herself something of a warlord these days. Maybe she has grown cocky (more so then usual) since her plan of capturing Oss worked so well. Even down to deciding on abandoning units in the event of something going wrong.

CnSvnc wrote:Also also, Jack is fine. The possibility that he might be croaked or decrypted never crossed my mind and was surprised to find some people on forums actually thought that might happen. He's too awesome to lose.


Be thankful Wanda didn't have her way. :)

PlotArmour wrote:Hrmmm, I dunno, Ansom not being there is a loss... but in a way, won't it throw a huge wrench in Jillian's plans to get Ansom? It might end up being a boon.


When did we find out Jillian's plan was to get Ansom?

MonteCristo wrote:Y'know i still feel as though these numbers are more unbalanced than Parson made it seemed
i mean, 68 dwagons + 20? archons vs 26 gwiffens + 6 Meglogwiffs + 9 unipegitaurs... either i'm really underestimating the meglogwiffs and gwiffens or GK's got a pretty clear advantage with raw units


Well traditionally forces in a castle had something of an advantage unless an attacker had a clear superiority in numbers (granted dwagons and Archons mess with "traditionally") or someway to overcome the defense easily - there might still be air-defences, the mystery caster is a factor, Cubbins (if he can do anything) might be.

Plus it might include personal brilliance in the defense. Yes raw units might be the dominating factor, but like with battling for GK... Say Ansom's replacement on the field had a bracer, and run a calc on the likelihood of the RCCI winning now. I'd think they would have got a very high likelihood based upon factors like raw units (lat least 90% +), but we know it didn't happen because Parson used the casters to go nuclear, winning the day for GK. That kind of unlikely event would have been represented in the very small % chance of the RCCI loosing the battle that day.

PlotArmour wrote:Oh, so sizemore surviving had nothing to do with the fact he was Heir... merely that he was near the heir... not the argument you were making, and again, pure speculation.


I thought the mechanics on those sorts of things were kind of clear. Heirs, at least, will survive the death of their side and go barbarian. Any troops under their command at the time (or at the very least in their personal stack) don't disband but remain serving them. This we learnt from Jillian.

Plus there is the slight mystery of what happens when a capital is lost with the heir in the field but the side has other cities. At the moment the consensus seems to be the heir goes barbarian until a capital site is retaken (the lost one, or a capital is established in an alternative city available).
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 14

Postby Evil Jedi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:07 am

It's funny that Stanley still thinks this next stage of the attack is part of Ansom's plan, even though Parson just came up with it.

It sounds like personal feelings are going to have a huge effect on the outcome of this battle. Wanda not taking Ansom on the attack because of her worrying about his behavior around Jillian and Slately. She's got some serious insecurities, that one. Even if their attack fails, I don't think she'll be croaked. She'll get away and regroup, but it'll be important to see how much Gobwin Knob loses in the attack. Charlie will probably be the deciding factor, since only Jillian seems to know he's involved in Jetstone's defense. One thing's for sure; this is going to be the biggest air battle we've ever seen in Erfworld history! :D

Mounted units on 6 megalogwiffs, 26 gwiffons, 9 Unipegataurs and some Orlies vs. Units on 68 dwagons (if I added them right: 18 green, 14 yellow, 12 pink, 9 red, 8 blue, and 7 purple) and about 20 Archons. Of course the Tower defenses will come into play too, plus the effects of the casters (on both sides), and the Warlords on both sides. But looking at the numbers I can see why Parson says Wanda has a good chance of success. Which is why Charlie is going to be really important in this fight. I hope that right before he reveals himself, Charlie contacts Parson and asks him to do a little calculation. . . Parson's reaction, "Oh crap." :lol:

And I think this is the first time we've heard about Brookstone, which must be another city they took on their way to Jetsone's capital. Since GK has something like 14 cities now (according to one of the summer updates), I wonder how many forces are occupying those cities to make sure they're secure?
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