Book 2 – Text Updates 008

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:37 pm

Megaduck wrote: :cry: <Pokes his head out> :(
:? <Sees the sun> :shock:
:o <Flees in terror> :oops:


Hey guys, check this out, fresh lurker meat!

Man, aren't we a nice hospitable community? :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen: :twisted: :mrgreen:

Fangthane wrote:Seriously though, I can't possibly be the only one here who believes that suicide - and anyone who tries, reveres, seeks or glorifies it - is contemptible by definition, can I? I consider Plath - and anyone else who takes that road - to be a cop-out, and anything they've created to be tainted by that stigma. Maybe I'm being too harsh on her, but I know several others who agree (at least in general terms).


You're probably not the only one thinking like that here, but I disagree with you. For one, I hear Hunter S. Thompson was awesome. He also chewed a bullet to the face. RIP.

But back to Plath, I must confess ignorance. The only thing I've read tangentially about her was an essay by John Dolan, bitterest man alive, on her husband Ted Hughes. Here's the essay. Quite a read, I recommend it if you've got an hour to sink, but not very flattering to Plath. At all. See, Dolan thinks Ted Hughes is being unfairly maligned so by way of compensation I guess Sylvia comes out as a bit of a morbid obsessed crone with a gigantic victim complex. Or her fans have the victim complex, I forget.

So I suppose I'm open to some recommendation of a more positive view of Plath, in essay form.

But not poetry. Anything but that. I hate poetry. Except Blake. Maybe.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby gameboy1234 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:18 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
Snowtitan wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Really simply ask yourself this, what is the difference between a titan and a greek god?

Basically they're different factions, in a war, nobody likes to be associated with the enemy, so calling a titan a God, is really a bit of an insult


No, it's really not.

There was no war between the Titans and the Gods, because "Titans" are not opposed to "Gods". There was a war (the Titanomachy) between the Titans and the Olympians, both of whom were kinds of gods. Also, some of the Titans sided with the Olympians. So there were, in fact, Titans on both sides of the war.

Both the Titans and the Olympians were gods. There is no distinction, in Greek Mythology, between the word "Titan" and "God" except one is more general and one is more specific.



This, basically. There are lots of instances in almost all mythologies where one set of gods wars on another. Usually, this represents one tribe with one set of gods waring and defeating another tribe with a different set of gods. There's even a similar war in the Norse pantheon, between the Aesir and the Vanir, although this war looks like a tie. However, certain customs were changed as a result, as various groups lost power.

It happens a lot. Look for it next time you're reading mythology. Basically anytime you see some sort of god war, you should think about the possibility that it represents a war of the different peoples themselves.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:30 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:This, basically. There are lots of instances in almost all mythologies where one set of gods wars on another. Usually, this represents one tribe with one set of gods waring and defeating another tribe with a different set of gods.


Not so sure about the warring tribes bit, sounds too po-mo convenient, but the conflict between gods being a widespread motif yes. Another example is the battle between Tiamat and Marduk, each with their associated gods as well, from Babylonian mythology.

But as to how those god-wars represent wars between people ... huh? Citation? Who were the Aesir for, who were the Vanir? Or indeed, Titans or Olympians? The only real deity clash that mirrors clash between people that I know of is the Judeo-Christian God vs. Baal.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Rogthnor01 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:00 pm

I'm pretty sure that the Aesir were people like Odin and Thor while the Vanir were the frost giants
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby fjolnir » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:40 pm

nope, the vanir are mostly gods of fertility, fortelling, and wisdom while the aesir are described mostly as power/war gods...
all were humanoid and not members of the Jötnar or nature spirits of whom the fire giants of muspelhiem will be the primary destroyers of the world by sweeping it all in flame when the Jötnar and Hel rise up during ragnarok
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:44 pm

Ah, beaten to the punch. One more thing though, wasn't Hel one of Odin's offspring?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby robak » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:52 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Fangthane wrote:Seriously though, I can't possibly be the only one here who believes that suicide - and anyone who tries, reveres, seeks or glorifies it - is contemptible by definition, can I? I consider Plath - and anyone else who takes that road - to be a cop-out, and anything they've created to be tainted by that stigma. Maybe I'm being too harsh on her, but I know several others who agree (at least in general terms).


You're probably not the only one thinking like that here, but I disagree with you. For one, I hear Hunter S. Thompson was awesome. He also chewed a bullet to the face. RIP.

Alan Turing committed suicide. Stop using a computer.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BillMcD » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:56 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Ah, beaten to the punch. One more thing though, wasn't Hel one of Odin's offspring?


One of Loki's, IIRC.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Manoftyr » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:56 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Ah, beaten to the punch. One more thing though, wasn't Hel one of Odin's offspring?


No, Hela is one of Loke's offspring along with Fenrir and Jormungandr.

Edit-Beaten to the punch
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:06 pm

robak wrote:Alan Turing committed suicide. Stop using a computer.


Lol, one bit of office fun once was a video of this old woman protesting against computers that they were "a homosexual invention by some Englishman". I'm not sure whether she was serious or not.

But yeah, Turing's a more famous example of people who offed themselves while awesome. Too bad that no one realised that in Turing's case and pushed him over the edge.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Gez » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:07 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The only real deity clash that mirrors clash between people that I know of is the Judeo-Christian God vs. Baal.

I think it's rather clear-cut in the case of the Tuatha dé Danann vs. Fomoire.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Sinrus » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:26 pm

Semi-little known Celtic Mythology FTW!

And the Titans vs. Olympians (or really the entire section of mythology during the early days of Greece) represents the social conflict between the indigenous matriarchal tribes and the invading Mycenaeans.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BCCroaker » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:14 pm

Before I have to research "The Greek Myths" (Graves) and "The Golden Bough" (Frazer), can we have another strip please?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Sinrus » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:36 pm

There ought to be a new one tomorrow.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:35 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote: The only real deity clash that mirrors clash between people that I know of is the Judeo-Christian God vs. Baal.

Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions. And there is no Judeo-Christian G-d. Jews and Christians have entirely different beliefs and values. Just an example, Christianity has that 'turn the other cheek' thing. If someone is going to hit a Jew, he's supposed to preempt his attacker.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:18 am

Baal? Just send Jack O'Neil after em.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby JustDoug » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:30 am

Ninjaguineapig wrote:Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions. And there is no Judeo-Christian G-d. Jews and Christians have entirely different beliefs and values. Just an example, Christianity has that 'turn the other cheek' thing. If someone is going to hit a Jew, he's supposed to preempt his attacker.


Utterly wrong, except the Ba'al part. The "Big Three" religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all derive from the same root belief system: early Judaism. By their own tenets and history, all worship the same diety. They share many of the same historical holy figures (John the Baptist, anyone?), dogma and beliefs. Where do you think the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and many of the basic tenets of Islam came from? What religion was Jesus of Nazareth? From Whence did Muhammad's beliefs spring from?

They're essentially Super Sects* of the same religion. Each one just thinks that the others got all the details wrong and need correcting.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:28 am

BCCroaker wrote:Before I have to research "The Greek Myths" (Graves) and "The Golden Bough" (Frazer), can we have another strip please?


I recommend you add "Scarlet: the Heroine with a Thousand Faces (and about as many names)" to that list.

Gez wrote:I think it's rather clear-cut in the case of the Tuatha dé Danann vs. Fomoire.


You're an education. +1 Informative.

Sinrus wrote:And the Titans vs. Olympians (or really the entire section of mythology during the early days of Greece) represents the social conflict between the indigenous matriarchal tribes and the invading Mycenaeans.


That has more than a whiff of New-Age revisionism about it. Maybe you could point me to where I can read more about that theory?

Ninjaguineapig wrote:Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions.


The other part of your post has been answered to, so I'll stick to this one.

TODAY, Jews, Christians and Muslims do not recognise the existence of Baal.

Back when the Ten Commandments were given, it is arguable that the situation was different. That is, originally the existence of other gods was aknowledged but these other gods must not be worshipped by the Chosen People. For instance:

Michah 4:5 (KJV) wrote:For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.


Exodus 15:11 (KJV) wrote:Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?


This of course changed to complete religious exclusivism soon enough. In any case, what the Bible does in the Old Testament is provide a supposedly historical account of the struggles between the peoples of Israel and other tribes in the region, and the conflict is frequently framed in both military and religious terms. And it's not always against Baal either, of course, but that's the more persistent antagonist. There are also showdowns with Egyptian and Sumerian clerics for instance.

And because the OT is very stark and clear, it's the best record that I know of, of a struggle between people mirrored by a struggle between gods. Even what Gez brought up as an example is a bit muddied by time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Menas » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:46 pm

JustDoug wrote:
Ninjaguineapig wrote:Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions. And there is no Judeo-Christian G-d. Jews and Christians have entirely different beliefs and values. Just an example, Christianity has that 'turn the other cheek' thing. If someone is going to hit a Jew, he's supposed to preempt his attacker.


Utterly wrong, except the Ba'al part. The "Big Three" religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all derive from the same root belief system: early Judaism. By their own tenets and history, all worship the same diety. They share many of the same historical holy figures (John the Baptist, anyone?), dogma and beliefs. Where do you think the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and many of the basic tenets of Islam came from? What religion was Jesus of Nazareth? From Whence did Muhammad's beliefs spring from?

They're essentially Super Sects* of the same religion. Each one just thinks that the others got all the details wrong and need correcting.


This is closer, but still not accurate. Jews and Christians both observe the Old Testament as truth, and as a book of authority. The Old Testament records the history of God's creation of the earth and the first true man (in their opinion) Adam, moving on through the prophet Abraham, whose descendants became the nation of Israel (through his grandson Israel). It then records significant events having to do with the nation of Israel and their prophets up until the coming of Christ.

The dividing line for those two groups is their view on Christ. Christians believe Christ was the Son of God, and Jews (who only adhere to Judaism) believe He was a prophet. Christians accept the New Testament as a book of authority because it's the story of Christ and his followers. So both groups believe in (the same) God and the Holy Spirit. But only Christians accept Christ as the Son of God, and accept the New Testament. Of course it's possible for there to be Christian Jews.... in those cases they're still Jews by genealogy but they believe Christ is the Son of God.

Islam is something completely different. The founder for Islam was Mohammed, and their holy book is the Koran. According to Mohammed, he was visited by an Angel and given the contents of Allah's (God for islamics/muslims) holy book. The founder of Mormonism claimed almost exactly the same thing (he was given a different book).

It's true that Islam shares some similarities to Judaism, such as being a monotheistic religion. Also, some of their laws appear to be similar to some of those presented in the Old Testament. But the similarities end there, apart from any shared lessons that happen to be taught by both. Like do not steal, for instance.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Sinrus » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:24 pm

Menas wrote:
JustDoug wrote:
Ninjaguineapig wrote:Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions. And there is no Judeo-Christian G-d. Jews and Christians have entirely different beliefs and values. Just an example, Christianity has that 'turn the other cheek' thing. If someone is going to hit a Jew, he's supposed to preempt his attacker.


Utterly wrong, except the Ba'al part. The "Big Three" religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all derive from the same root belief system: early Judaism. By their own tenets and history, all worship the same diety. They share many of the same historical holy figures (John the Baptist, anyone?), dogma and beliefs. Where do you think the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and many of the basic tenets of Islam came from? What religion was Jesus of Nazareth? From Whence did Muhammad's beliefs spring from?

They're essentially Super Sects* of the same religion. Each one just thinks that the others got all the details wrong and need correcting.


Islam is something completely different. The founder for Islam was Mohammed, and their holy book is the Koran. According to Mohammed, he was visited by an Angel and given the contents of Allah's (God for islamics/muslims) holy book. The founder of Mormonism claimed almost exactly the same thing (he was given a different book).

It's true that Islam shares some similarities to Judaism, such as being a monotheistic religion. Also, some of their laws appear to be similar to some of those presented in the Old Testament. But the similarities end there, apart from any shared lessons that happen to be taught by both. Like do not steal, for instance.


Actually, both Jews and Muslims believe that they descended from Abraham. Jews from his son Isaac, and Muslims from his son Ishmael. Also, the angel who appeared to Muhammad is the angel Gabriel; the same one who visited the the Virgin Mary. The difference is that Islam teaches that Muhammad was the last prophet, which neither Judaism nor Christianity accept. Also, both Jews and Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, as opposed to the son of God.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Sinrus wrote:And the Titans vs. Olympians (or really the entire section of mythology during the early days of Greece) represents the social conflict between the indigenous matriarchal tribes and the invading Mycenaeans.


That has more than a whiff of New-Age revisionism about it. Maybe you could point me to where I can read more about that theory?


I'm not sure where you can find information about it, but I studied Greek mythology in English and History (at my school they're combined into one class, Humanities) this year. The tribes native to the area now know as Greece were a matriarchal society that worshiped a single Gaia-figure. The invading Myceneans, the people who eventually set up the famous civilization of Ancient Greece, were a patriarchal warrior-tribe.

Rather than use brute force to conquer the region, the Mycenaeans united the two religions. Since the Greek peninsula is so mountainous, the various indigenous tribes had slightly different ideas that encompassed their respective goddesses. Because of this, nearly all greek goddesses are based off of them. Some examples are Aphrodite, Hera, Artemis, Metis (technically a titaness), and most obviously, Gaea herself.

The origin story of Greek Mythology tells a tale in which men dominate the universe. Cronus's (Kronos) and Ouranus's wives are portayed as unfaithful, devious, and untrustworthy and serve as a model for the Mycenaean view of women. Of course, this also makes them seem more intelligent, a problem which is solved by the story of Zeus's first wife, Metis. Metis was the titaness of wisdom and the most intelligent of the immortals. Zeus hears a prophecy that she will bear a son who will be stronger than his father, so Zeus tricks her and swallows her whole. He then gains her wisdom. Later on, Athena, the goddess of wisdom, is born out of Zeus's head.

Ninjaguineapig wrote:Jews and Christians don't recognize the existence of Ba'al, since they are monotheistic religions.


Actually, one of the many names for the devil is Beelzebub, which, translated, means 'Follower of Ba'al.'
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