Book 2 – Text Updates 008

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:29 pm

Binty wrote:Translation of divine concepts into our Judeo-Christian culture is a tricky thing - where we are used to GOD as the prime mover.


Yes, but we also use gods (plural) to indicate beings worshiped by other religions, esp. pantheistic ones. Thus, Norse gods, Roman gods, etc. So it seems likely that Titans are gods too, to me at least.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby MonteCristo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:45 pm

Sinrus wrote:Yes, but we're talking about Greek mythology. Generational is pretty huge. I mean seriously, Pegasus was born from Medusa's dead body.

Really simply ask yourself this, what is the difference between a titan and a greek god?
I mean without bringing up the generational difference, can you come up with a definition for "god" that would include the greek gods, but not include the titans. in either case you are talking about some kind of powerful deity. in fact, looking around it seems rather commonplace to refer to the titans as the "elder gods"... As far as i can see, the only reason they had different names was so that the greeks would have an easier time differentiating between the two pantheons... any gods who sided were Zeus were the Olympians, and any gods who side with the titans were titans... frankly i think there is no reason to say the titans were not gods; the term "titan" seems like it was nothing more than a name
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Snowtitan » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:14 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Yes, but we're talking about Greek mythology. Generational is pretty huge. I mean seriously, Pegasus was born from Medusa's dead body.

Really simply ask yourself this, what is the difference between a titan and a greek god?

Basically they're different factions, in a war, nobody likes to be associated with the enemy, so calling a titan a God, is really a bit of an insult
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Rogthnor01 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:15 pm

I mean without bringing up the generational difference, can you come up with a definition for "god" that would include the greek gods, but not include the titans. in either case you are talking about some kind of powerful deity. in fact, looking around it seems rather commonplace to refer to the titans as the "elder gods"... As far as i can see, the only reason they had different names was so that the greeks would have an easier time differentiating between the two pantheons... any gods who sided were Zeus were the Olympians, and any gods who side with the titans were titans... frankly i think there is no reason to say the titans were not gods; the term "titan" seems like it was nothing more than a name
I have one, Anyone with the power to a. claim he or she is a god b.enforce it c. get someone to worship him. Since the Titans lost they obviously couldn't complete part b.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:27 pm

Sinrus wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:
Sinrus wrote:If you know anything about Greek mythology then no, they are totally different.


Actually, the Titans (Theoi Titantes) of Greek Mythology were, in fact, gods. The Olympians (Theoi Olympios, what are more commonly referred to as the Greek Gods in modern society) and the Theoi Khthonioi (underworld gods, like Hades, Charon, Thanatos, etc) were the children of the Titans: the Titans were the progenitors of the Olympians. Both, however, were considered Theoi (gods). They represented great cosmic forces, and were themselves the offspring of Ouranos and Gaia (two of the Protogenoi, a yet earlier generation of gods).


The cyclopes were also children of the Ouranous and Gaia. Are they gods too, in your mind?


Anything that is a Theoi is, by definition, a god. The Theoi Titantes are gods, because they are theoi (greek word meaning "god") just as the Theoi Olympios (the Olympians) are gods.

The Kyklopes were born of Ouranos' blood from his Castration Wound, just like the Gigantes, btw.

And this isn't "in my mind", this is according to Hesiod's "Theogony". Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself.
Last edited by DoctorJest on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:31 pm

Rogthnor01 wrote:The difference between the titans and the gods was purely generational, just because my dad was born during disco doesn't mean he is a different species.


There is no difference between "Titan" and "Gods" in Greek Mythology, that's the point. That's a false dichotomy based on a modern misunderstanding.

There are, in fact, several KINDS of gods in Greek Mythology. There are:

Protogenoi (the Primeval gods)
Theoi Titantes (Titans)
Theoi Olympios (Olympians)
Theoi Kthonios (Underworld Gods)

and so on.

The Titans are every bit "the greek gods" as are the Olympians.
Last edited by DoctorJest on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:39 pm

Snowtitan wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Yes, but we're talking about Greek mythology. Generational is pretty huge. I mean seriously, Pegasus was born from Medusa's dead body.

Really simply ask yourself this, what is the difference between a titan and a greek god?

Basically they're different factions, in a war, nobody likes to be associated with the enemy, so calling a titan a God, is really a bit of an insult


No, it's really not.

There was no war between the Titans and the Gods, because "Titans" are not opposed to "Gods". There was a war (the Titanomachy) between the Titans and the Olympians, both of whom were kinds of gods. Also, some of the Titans sided with the Olympians. So there were, in fact, Titans on both sides of the war.

Both the Titans and the Olympians were gods. There is no distinction, in Greek Mythology, between the word "Titan" and "God" except one is more general and one is more specific.
Last edited by DoctorJest on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:47 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Yes, but we're talking about Greek mythology. Generational is pretty huge. I mean seriously, Pegasus was born from Medusa's dead body.

Really simply ask yourself this, what is the difference between a titan and a greek god?
I mean without bringing up the generational difference, can you come up with a definition for "god" that would include the greek gods, but not include the titans. in either case you are talking about some kind of powerful deity. in fact, looking around it seems rather commonplace to refer to the titans as the "elder gods"... As far as i can see, the only reason they had different names was so that the greeks would have an easier time differentiating between the two pantheons... any gods who sided were Zeus were the Olympians, and any gods who side with the titans were titans... frankly i think there is no reason to say the titans were not gods; the term "titan" seems like it was nothing more than a name


It's alot more complicated than that, actually. They weren't simplifying anything: the family tree of the Greek Gods would make a geneaologist cringe (and they were, in fact, one Pantheon). In fact, Hesiod wrote his Theogony just to sort the whole thing out, because it was so complex. The waters were only further muddied by the later poets who came after him, but his was the main foundation of the Mythology to follow.

But do keep in mind, the ancient Greeks did NOT think of the groups as "Titans" and "Gods". They thought of them as "Theoi Titantes" (or "Straining Gods", named such for their castration of Ouranos) and the Theoi Olympios (or Gods of Olympios). So they did IN FACT refer to BOTH groups as "gods". It is only a modern popular confusion that separates the words "titan" and "god", because the greeks used them quite literally side-by-side. Theoi Titantes.

Remember, Hades is commonly referred to as a Greek God, but he was not and Olympian, either. Many greek gods were not, in fact, one of the twelve olympians (the Dodekatheoi).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby DoctorJest » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:56 pm

Binty wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Translation of divine concepts into our Judeo-Christian culture is a tricky thing - where we are used to GOD as the prime mover.


Who is this "we"?

I blame public education, personally.
Last edited by DoctorJest on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:05 am

Binty wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Yes, but we're talking about Greek mythology. Generational is pretty huge. I mean seriously, Pegasus was born from Medusa's dead body.


θείον = god = divine = 'any supernatural being' (I think).


Not quite right.

There were several orders of supernatural beings, not all of whom were called Theoi. The line between gods (Theoi) and spirits (Daimones) was sometimes a fuzzy one and sometimes overlapped (it's mythology, not science: the Poets were considered divinely-inspired authors, much like the biblical prophets, but often had some divergent ideas), but there were always some distinctions made between gods, spirits, nymphs, monsters, etc.
Last edited by DoctorJest on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Sinrus » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:07 am

DoctorJest wrote:
Binty wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Translation of divine concepts into our Judeo-Christian culture is a tricky thing - where we are used to GOD as the prime mover.


Who is this "we"?

I blame public education, personally.


Ahem. I did not write that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Rogerborg » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:17 am

Oh, right, it's that redhead chick. I didn't recognise her, since the the new artwork is yet again sadly anodyne and anonymous. :(
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby theseus2x » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:06 am

DoctorJest wrote:
Rogthnor01 wrote:The difference between the titans and the gods was purely generational, just because my dad was born during disco doesn't mean he is a different species.


There is no difference between "Titan" and "Gods" in Greek Mythology, that's the point. That's a false dichotomy based on a modern misunderstanding.

There are, in fact, several KINDS of gods in Greek Mythology. There are:

Protogenoi (the Primeval gods)
Theoi Titantes (Titans)
Theoi Olympios (Olympians)
Theoi Kthonios (Underworld Gods)

and so on.

The Titans are every bit "the greek gods" as are the Olympians.


Oh for crying out loud... its nomenclature, okay? The Titans were the gods, until Zeus and company deposed them. They are now simply called the Titans. Could they technically still be called gods? Sure. But if they were so godly, how were they deposed? :P

Honestly, I think this tangent has ceased having anything to do with Erfworld. The Titans of Greek Mythology did not make Erfworld. The Titans of Erfworld were not deposed by the Olympians. Most importantly.... the Titans of Greek Mythology did not look like Elvis!!!

Can we get back to the comic, please?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Binty » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:31 am

DoctorJest wrote: I blame public education, personally.


Quite, publically funded education is full-blooded socialism. Why should my taxes be spent trying to educate other peoples' children? This country is going to the dogs - which we will soon be forced to marry!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Shoki » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:16 pm

There plenty of times that a god will be bested and still be a god. :P


But anyhow erf world's hell and its demons are lorded over by a johnny cash.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Fangthane » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:22 pm

theseus2x wrote: Most importantly.... the Titans of Greek Mythology did not look like Elvis!!!


I'll grant they didn't all look like Elvis, but given the number of Greek people I've met with sideburns*, thick black hair and a peanut-butter-and-nanner physique, and the tendency to conceive of deities in our own likeness, it's hardly a stretch to think there may have been some degree of similarity :)

Seriously though, I can't possibly be the only one here who believes that suicide - and anyone who tries, reveres, seeks or glorifies it - is contemptible by definition, can I? I consider Plath - and anyone else who takes that road - to be a cop-out, and anything they've created to be tainted by that stigma. Maybe I'm being too harsh on her, but I know several others who agree (at least in general terms).

*how I wish I could say this doesn't include women, but it does. Not many, but there it is...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby joosy » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:32 pm

Sinrus wrote:The cyclopes were also children of the Ouranous and Gaia. Are they gods too, in your mind?


Nope, Cyclops is part of the X-Men! (Like that Colossus guy from Rhodes) :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Raza » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:17 pm

multilis wrote:I am not blaming Rob for him but suggesting not to glorify "dying". The lady apparently killed herself by sticking her head in an oven and turning on the gas, her children lost a mother.

"Internet played no role in his madness... Don't spout stupid bullshit like that."

It is very open common knowledge that Mark Lebine and several others like him (eg Kimveer Gill, if you want I can give a longer list) were very heavy into Gothic web sites that promoted dying and was very vocal/public about his opinions on chat sites, including about dying being his calling (there is at least one documentary that goes into details). (Part of fallout is some calling for monitoring internet for signs of people like him)

If you don't believe in "monkey see monkey do", then is it ok for someone to promote nazi style mass murder, simulated child porn, etc only as "entertainment"? If dying is a calling/good, then Nazi gas chamber may be a holy temple for some.

People can promote whatever they please. Bad ideas need to be refuted, not silenced. Good ideas need the opportunity to be heard, even if the status quo does not approve of them. And everything is fair game in fiction, art and entertainment.

You should keep your morality where it belongs; in your mind, applied to your actions.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Shoki » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:26 pm

There has and always will be a medium to blame the actions of the insane and desperate on.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 008

Postby Megaduck » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:29 pm

Menas wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Seerow wrote:Seriously I lurk a lot and very rarely post, but I just have to say one thing about this update:


Fan Service


:shock: Stop the presses!!!

Did you figure that out all by yourself or did you get assistance?


Maybe we can give the lurkers a break when they're brave enough to let the sun shine on their faces for a few moments?


:cry: <Pokes his head out> :(
:? <Sees the sun> :shock:
:o <Flees in terror> :oops:
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