Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Crovius » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:52 pm

In that case I popped some extra infantry
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Charlie » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:12 pm

Empire: Charlescomm
Colour: Light Blue
Player: Charlie
Turn: 1
Starting Schmuckers: 59
Total Income from Cities: 80
Upgrade Costs: 20 Upgrade Fort Chaos to level 2, 40 upgrade Overwatch to level 4, Total upgrade cost 60

Cities
F3 - Fort Chaos
H4 - Overwatch
I2 - Eagle's Nest

Units
Pop units in: 4 Apocalytes (Calvalry) in I2, 1 Burning Man (Infantry) in I2, 4 Burning Men (Infantry) in H4, 2 Burning Men in F3

Starting Position
F3 0 Flyers, 0 Calvalry, 3 Infanty, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
I2 0 Flyers, 4 Cavalry, 1 Infantry, 0 Siege, 1 Characters
H4 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 7 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
G2 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 2 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters

UPKEEP COSTS: -67
Ending Schmuckers: 12

Movement
4 Calvary from I2 to H10 (Templum) BATTLE
2 Infantry from G2 to H4 (Overwatch)
4 Infantry from H4 to I2 (Eagle's Nest)

NEW UNIT - Apocalytes
Bearing titanic marks, these units used to only come round when a side was soon to fall. But Charlie as a warlord was able to tame a few before his side fell, and used them to help him survive as a barbarian. When he found the Arkendish and started his new side, they served as his finishers, ready to take a city at a moments notice.

COMBAT - I have to go out for a few hours. I'm sorry this is last minute, and almost late, but I ask for a combat extension until 9 P.M. EST.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:30 pm

Granted. But if you take my city, I take your capital.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Azgrut » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:39 pm

He will, at any dice roll, take your city. It only depends on the rolls how many cavalry units will survive...

I mean, your infantry will count for 4 now. But can still only take 1 hit since it is 1 infantry right? 4 dudes * 2/3 can not inflict 4 hits while 4 dudes inflicting 1/3 will inflict 1. City will be empty and thus automatically taken...

I fear the city is taken then :(.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Charlie » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:34 pm

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: H10
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 1213
Attacker:
0 Fliers
4 Cavalry
0 Infantry
0 Siege
1 Thinkamancer
Total Combat Factors: 4
Random Number: 3
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 5
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 1

Defender:
0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
1 Infantry
0 Siege
4 Defence Factor
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 4
Random Number: 10
Tactical Bonus Result: 1
Total Combat: 11
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 3

VICTORY TO: Defender

However, there are no surviving units remaining in the city, therefore my final calvalry unit occupies Templum, as Azgrut predicted...
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:38 pm

Charlie, I'm going to have to punish you. I was willing to let you live.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Azgrut » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:08 am

Empire: Egyptalon
Colour: Red
Player: Azgrut
Turn: 2
Starting Schmuckers: 63
Total Income from Cities: 120 * 1.15% = 138
Upgrade Costs: 40 upgrade Horutalon (A1) to level 4, 10 Build Babylon (D3) to level 1, Total upgrade cost 50

Cities
B3 - Sethalon
A1 - Anubilon
C1 – Horutalon
D3 - Babylon

Units
Pop units in: 1 Character (Warlord: Horus) in B3, 4 Infantry in A1, 4 Flyers in C1

Upkeep: -107
Ending Smuckers: 44

Movement
2 Infantry from A10 to A1
4 Flyers from C1 to F10 (over D1 and E10) COMBAT
5 Infantry from A1 to C1

Location :
A1: 0 Flyers, 0 Calvalry, 4 Infanty, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
C1: 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 7 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
B3: 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 4 Infantry, 0 Siege, 2 Characters
D3: 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 2 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters

COMBAT: See below.

Gz!
Last edited by Azgrut on Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Azgrut » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:12 am

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: F10
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 844
Attacker: 4 Fliers
0 Cavalry
0 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 4
Random Number: 2
Tactical Bonus Result: 0
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 1

Defender: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
1 Infantry
0 Siege
5 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 5
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 1
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 3

VICTORY TO: DEFENDER

And like Charlie. No troops are left in the city. My last remaining flyer will auto take the capital city of Animus.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Crovius » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:10 pm

Wait... animus is his capital... So dude, Sinrus would have just lost. All his cities are now neutral, his units within are barbarians, and any field units disband...

That seems so wrong. I mean, his lost one infantry and then, what, the king just jumps off a balcony and kills himself? That just doesn't seem right.

Personally I thinka city can't be taken if the attack loses. Even with all units dead, you still have the baron/lord/mayor sitting there. So... should a city really be taken if the attacker loses? I don't know... At the least a capital falling because there's only one Infantry unit it, that's messed up.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Empire: Draviston
Colour: Gold
Player: Sinrus
Turn: 3
Starting Schmuckers: 58

Total Income from Cities: 70
Upgrade Costs: 0
Cities
E8 Vita 3
G1 Vanguard 4
Units
Pop units in: E8: 3 infantry G1: 4 infantry
Before Movement
Location :
E8 0 Flyers, 3 Cavalry, 7 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
G1 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 15 Infantry, 0 Siege, 1 Characters Warlord lv2
Movement
From G1 to F10 via G10 3 infantry
From G1 to H10 via G10 3 infantry
From G1 to I2 via H2 3 infantry
From G1 to F3 via F2 5 infantry, 1 Warlord (level 2)
Location After Movement:
E8 0 Flyers, 3 Cavalry, 7 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
G1 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 1 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
F10 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 1 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
H10 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 1 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
I2 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 1 Infantry, 0 Siege, 0 Characters
F3 0 Flyers, 0 Cavalry, 3 Infantry, 0 Siege, 1 Characters (Warlord level 3)
UPKEEP COSTS: -70
Ending Schmuckers: 58
COMBAT: Coming right up.
Last edited by Sinrus on Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:44 pm

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: F10
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 3
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 0
Total Combat: 1
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 4

Defender: 1 Fliers
0 Cavalry
0 Infantry
0 Siege
5 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 5
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 3
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 2

VICTORY TO: ATTACKER

Animus is mine again, with 1 infantry present.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: H10
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 3
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 0
Total Combat: 1
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 4

Defender: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
1 Infantry
0 Siege
4 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 4
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 3
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 2

VICTORY TO: ATTACKER

Okay, I get Templum back too.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: I2
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 3
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: -1
Total Combat: 0
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 4

Defender: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
5 Infantry
0 Siege
5 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 25
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 3
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 2

VICTORY TO: ATTACKER

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: F3
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
5 Infantry
0 Siege
2 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 5
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 3
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 4

Defender: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
2 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 6
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 3
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 2

VICTORY TO: ATTACKER

And there goes Fort Chaos. It now contains 3 infantry and a level 3 warlord.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:46 pm

Crovius! Before you take your turn, read the message I sent you!
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:55 pm

Crovius wrote:Wait... animus is his capital... So dude, Sinrus would have just lost. All his cities are now neutral, his units within are barbarians, and any field units disband...

That seems so wrong. I mean, his lost one infantry and then, what, the king just jumps off a balcony and kills himself? That just doesn't seem right.

Personally I thinka city can't be taken if the attack loses. Even with all units dead, you still have the baron/lord/mayor sitting there. So... should a city really be taken if the attacker loses? I don't know... At the least a capital falling because there's only one Infantry unit it, that's messed up.


Actually, I had a turn to take it back. Which I did. Also, here is the map:

Spoiler: show
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby LTDave » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:39 pm

Sinrus,

There is an error in each of the combats above - you have 3 infantry inflicting 4 hits - impossible under these rules. I expect that you haven't taken Charlies Capital or For Chaos.

Also, the rules say "A post should be made for each combat" - you've used the one set of random numbmers for each combat - let it go this time, but infuture, a separate post for each combat means separate random numbers for each.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:41 pm

Huh? I thought that you use the time of the original post for every combat in that turn. I'll try running the battles again.

EDIT: The Fort Chaos fight is fine. He had 3 defenders, times a level 2 city is 6. My 5 infantry and warlord were enough to top that, so 2/3 of 6 is 4. I can't seem to find the problem with Eagle's Nest.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby LTDave » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:29 pm

Except that the result in both cases has you with an INFERIOR result, which is only 1/3 casualties, not 2/3.

Here's what I get for Animus:

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: F10 (Animus)
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 3
Random Number: 2
Tactical Bonus Result: 0
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 1

Defender: 1 Fliers
0 Cavalry
0 Infantry
0 Siege
5 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 5
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 1
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 3

VICTORY TO: DEFENDER

So I get Both sides completely wiped out.
Sinrus does 1 hit on Azgrut, but his flyer does 3 on Sinrus, destroying his force. The Capital is NOT recaptured.



COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: H10 (Templum)
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 3
Random Number: 2
Tactical Bonus Result: 0
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 1

Defender: 0 Fliers
1 Cavalry
0 Infantry
0 Siege
4 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 4
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 1
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 3

At Templum the result is the same as your calculation - 1 hit on Charlie wipes him out, he knocks out two of your infantry.
Sinrus takes the City with 1 Infantry.



COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: I2 (Eagle's Nest)
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 3
Random Number: 2
Tactical Bonus Result: -1
Total Combat: 1
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 1

Defender: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
5 Infantry
0 Siege
5 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 25
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 3
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 17

At Eagle's Nest your calculation is way off. How do three Infantry possibly take a level 5 City garrisoned with 5 Infantry? Can't be done. At worst, Charlie would have done 1/3 of 25 hits on you (8). At best Sinrus could have done 2. Eagle's Nest stands, and Sinrus 3 Infantry are wiped out.


COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: F3 (Fort Chaos)
TIME OF POST (minutes and seconds): 3534
Attacker: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
5 Infantry
0 Siege
2 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 5
Random Number: 2
Tactical Bonus Result: 2
Total Combat: 4
Combat Result: SUPERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 3

Defender: 0 Fliers
0 Cavalry
3 Infantry
0 Siege
2 Defence Factor (City Level less Siege - minimum of 1)
0 Level Warlord
Total Combat Factors: 6
Random Number: 1
Tactical Bonus Result: 1
Total Combat: 2
Combat Result: INFERIOR
Hits Inflicted: 2


At Fort Chaos Sinrus wipes out Charlie's Garrison, who do two hits in response. Fort Chaos Falls to Sinrus.


I'm concerned that your spreadsheet doesn't give out the same result as mine - have you altered yours at all?

This result is quite scary - you've lost your capital and are out of the game. I think that's a disappointing result. Perhaps you'd like a do over? And maybe send more than 3 Infantry to retake Animus?
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:30 pm

So my spreadsheet is screwed up. What should I do then, since obviously I want to retake my turn.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Crovius » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:19 pm

Wait! How can 1 freaking flyer to 3 hits?! We really need to take a second rules at this "spreadsheet" thing. It's obviously flawed. There needs to be a SOLID random number generation method. Time cannot work because time is not the same for everyone everywhere. Your computer is a few seconds different from mine, mine's a few seconds different from the next guy's. Time is a inaccurate and ineffective method for determining random luck in combat. Personally I think we need to revamp all of combat. We need to get away from everything ADDING together and start focusing on MULTIPLICATION. Multipliers, that is what erfworld's combat was all about. We have city multipliers so far, and the Ditto mancer multiplying attacks. But we need more. Leadership multipliers, terrain multipliers, unit advantage multipliers. And then things that remove multipliers like shockamancy, that mud bomb thing, demoralization. We need simpler rules than "an excel spreadsheet formula" which, by the way, those are not accurate from one computer to another unless the computers are all using network drives to store the spreadsheets. But at the same time, we need MORE rules. And we apparently your formula sucks because everyone seems to be getting 1's, 2's and 3's 90% of the time, meaning your "random number" is scewed to the lower numbers.

The best solution for this system? We need a neutral referee. We need someone to blow whistles when someone is wrong, someone to take two sides in combat, find out what each side's final bonus is, and determine how many loses each side takes. IF we keep using a random bonus to each side, a single person should be figuring it out and that one person should be figuring it out for every combat. Because that is the only way to keep the number's consistantly random.

We need to start running with a game master, using larger world maps so it takes several turns to reach an enemy, not just 1 turn to make a city, then a second to make units and march them over to an enemy. Most of what we have is grea, but our current combat rules would only work with a larger scale. When a person can only make a handful of units in a turn, and probably can't afford to make all those units on top of upgrading cities because if they try to an enemy will be on their doorstep before the next turn begins, our combat system is broken. I've had worries about it, but never mentioned them because I thought I might of been wrong, but in the last turn alone I've seen that our combat system will not work on this cramped a scale. Everyone is too clsoe together and no one has any TACTICS. It's all about making a bunch of units and throwing enough at someone that you'll be able to wipe him out if you have at least 3 times as many units as the enemy. If we stay with the rules we have now, then we need ot clarify. A wictor does not deal 1/3 of their starting units in hits. They can't because those units aren't there any more. And anything less that a full number is rounded down, because otherwise I can just keep throwing units 2 at a time at a wall and I'
m gauranteed at least one enemy dies.

I'm sorry if I seem like I'm ranting, but the rules, the way we have them now, just won't work. That, and they require way too much work for everyone, when we could just have a single person willing to do the math. Like me, I went back, doing the math in my head, and several times the defender should have held the city, because the multiplier of a city's defense should prevent the units from taking hits, and no one is even counting the freaking city defense bonus.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:42 pm

I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is with the cities: too many, too close, too screwed up. Sure, my spreadsheet is messed up, but logic states that Azgrut shouldn't have been able to take Animus with only 4 fliers, especially since I had a higher random number than he did. The city bonus throws everything out of whack. But I also agree that the random number generator doesn't work either.
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Re: Erfworld Empires 1.3 Game Thread

Postby LTDave » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:12 am

Crovius - if you want to GM a bigger game, then go to it. It's a big internet.

The idea of this game is that we don't need a GM. The rules are set, the spreadsheet is set, and works fine as far as I can see. As the old saying goes, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

The random numbers do work, because everywhere in the world Sinrus posted his attack order at 35 minutes and 34 seconds. That's universal. It gives the same result for all spreadsheets. It's a simple way of having random numbers without having to trust one person to roll a dice.

You ask why 1 flyer can do three hits - because it's in a level 5 city, and because the roll went against Sinrus. If he'd taken 1 unit of Cavalry and 2 units of Flyers with 1 infantry he would have won easily, as the tactical bonuses would be in his favour.

The problems we have now are all related to one stupid mistake I made a week ago when I responded to a question on the other thread, about capturing a city. Azgrut asked a question about a side attacking a city and losing the combat but wiping out all the defenders. Sinrus responded and said the attackers take the city even though they lost. I then misread that response, and agreed with Sinrus, even though that is not what the rules say. The rules say that the side that takes the most hits must retreat. They don't say "even if the opponent is wiped out", though that is what they should say.

In reality, Charlie shouldn't have taken Templum, and Azgrut shouldn't have taken Animus - that is, without much better rolling.

But we are where we are because I misread a sentence. As we are playing now, a losing attacker that wipes out all the defenders takes the city. That's the convention we've set up, and that's the way we're playing.

I disagree with Sinrus. The thing is what it is, and works if you understand it. Combined forces with lots of tactical bonuses will help win victories.

I am happy for Sinrus to take his turn again - it would be most disappointing for him to be eliminated so early in the game.

I encourage all players to defend their capitals with more than 1 Infantry.

Best Regards.
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