The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 08, 2010 11:20 am

Okey-dokey, first, a list of all unit stats, both for GB and ourselves, for easy planning reference.

Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
Gobwin Bump units

Ground Infantry
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special
==================================================================================================
Garrison Twoll          14              4               5               0.5
Gobwin                  3               4               3               2
Field Twoll             15              5               5               2      
Gowem                   30              30              5               1

Ground Archers
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special
==================================================================================================
Gobwin Archer           3               4               3               2               Ranged

Flying Infantry
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special
==================================================================================================
Wessew Dwagon           10              15              5               5
Gweat Dwagon            30              5               5               5

Ranged Fliers
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special
==================================================================================================
Fire Dwagon             7               11              0               5               Ranged

Commanders
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special
==================================================================================================
Twevow                  3               4               3               2               Lv2, Chief Warlord



MCC Units

Scouts
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special      Side
==============================================================================================================
Golmon Battle Hawk      1               1               1               5               Ranged          Golmon Barbarians
Bweeze                  1               1               0               5               Ranged, Scout   Weather Toffs
Gyro Scope              1               1               0               5                               Steam Gentlemen
Spoiler                 1               1               1               2               Scout           Kingdom of Meh
Viper APU               4               4               2               5               Ranged, Scout   Kanite Legion

Ground Infantry
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special      Side
==============================================================================================================
Demonolith              30              45              5               1                               Nether-Erf
Elephant                30              45              5               1                               Kingdom of Nawnia
Minotaur                15              20              5               1                               Kingdom of Nawnia
Mist                    1               1               0               2                               Weather Toffs
Rolling Scorpion        10              15              5               3                               Steam Gentlemen
Axe Dwarf               5               4               1               2                               Bugger'al
Dwarf Champion          7               9               2               2                               Bugger'al
Mehian Spearman         4               4               4               2                               Kingdom of Meh
Nerb Ranger             10              12              3               2                               Kingdom of Meh
Dwagonknight            3               5               2               1                               Dwacon
Dwaconian               30              15              5               3                               Dwacon
Kanite Militant         2               2               2               2                               Kanite Legion

Ground Archers
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special      Side
==============================================================================================================
Golmon Knight           5               8               5               4               Ranged          Golmon Barbarians
Huwwicance              30              45              5               1               Ranged          Weather Toffs
Wion Hunter             5               8               5               2               Ranged          Steam Gentlemen
Twain                   30              1               1               4               Ranged          Steam Gentlemen
Hammer Dwarf            4               3               1               2               Ranged          Bugger'al
Dwarven Siege Tank      25              30              5               1               Ranged (Siege)  Bugger'al
Mehian Crossbower       3               5               3               2               Ranged          Kingdom of Meh
Kanite Rocketman        6               4               4               2               Ranged          Kanite Legion

Flying Infantry
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special      Side
==============================================================================================================

Ranged Fliers
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special      Side
==============================================================================================================
Shower                  3               3               0               5               Ranged          Weather Toffs
Steam Fly               30              1               1               5               Ranged          Steam Gentlemen
Copperhead ACU          10              15              5               5               Ranged          Kanite Legion

Commanders
Name         Hits      Attack      Defense      Move      Special      Side
==============================================================================================================
Prince Lokarat          4               5               1               4               Ranged, Lv5(3)  Golmon Barbarians
Peter                   6               9               5               1               Lv3             Kingdom of Nawnia
Edmund                  6               9               5               1               Lv3             Kingdom of Nawnia
Duke Kettwey            6               4               0               5               Ranged, Lv3(2)  Weather Toffs
General Dagnabbit       6               5               3               2               Lv2(2)          Bugger'al
Bob the Guy             5               8               5               2               Lv4             Kingdom of Meh
Lord Dwakvir            3               5               2               1               Lv3             Dwacon
Confessor Marcion
Delacroix               6               9               5               2               Lv2(1)          Kanite Legion
Graf Zeppellin          5               8               5               2               Ranged, Lv3(3), Steam Gentlemen
                                                                                        Chief Warlord


Look at it, if you notice errors, PM me.

List will be updated as we get more commanders/get to know of more commanders from GB. Croaked commanders will not be removed; fallen heroes must be remembered and so on.

I will repost the list every time we change page, again for easy access.

Tactical decisions soon.

Question- the Huwwicane is a move 1 unit. Can it do a hit and run, when moving on a road? That's a big part of the plan, I'd rather not leave our units hanging in that hex if we can avoid that.

As for the rest, seems ok, I'll give it more thought. I'm a bit wary of assassination as being the only option, and am wondering if there's some other way to minmax casualties that the Chief Warlord Carrot is blinding us from.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Twoy » Sat May 08, 2010 11:37 am

Sihoiba wrote:Duke Kettwey will step aside from my suggested first Stack and let Lokarat lead the way instead.

I agree for the most part with Duke Kettwey's follow-on analysis; however, I am still a bit confused about some aspects of battle planning here in Erfworld.

I really don't want to seem argumentative, Duke Kettwey, but are you not guaranteed an xp if you join stack 1? I think the additional xp for our most experienced warlord is more valuable than a point of damage against a unit that probably will survive the battle. Or is it not possible for multiple warlords in a stack to gain xp from one engagement?

In my stack, I prefer to take the 11% risk that one of my Minotaurs will get croaked in order to ensure that my Ewephant is at full hits on defense when GK takes their turn.

Finally, the Twain could join Dagnabbit's stack to act as a buffer.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 08, 2010 11:44 am

Twoy wrote:I really don't want to seem argumentative, Duke Kettwey, but are you not guaranteed an xp if you join stack 1? I think the additional xp for our most experienced warlord is more valuable than a point of damage against a unit that probably will survive the battle. Or is it not possible for multiple warlords in a stack to gain xp from one engagement?


It is possible. However, Duke Kettwey wants to lead a hit-and-run with a different stack.

I suggest this Duke-led stack be more meaty than just a Battle Hawk. Doing a hit and run may still result in one XP for him.

Twoy wrote:Finally, the Twain could join Dagnabbit's stack to act as a buffer.


So as to not be at full defense on the GB turn eh? ;)

But yeah, minor tweaks like this are ok. In particular, Dagnabbit's stack seems to lack buffer units and may do with one.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Azgrut » Sat May 08, 2010 11:51 am

Yet a small question that is still left unanswered and another question on top of that.

Dave, do commanders leading a ranged stack get exp from a hit and run assault?
And staying with range, does a hit and run attack reduce effectiveness of defending units?

Since an exp from a successful hit and run attack sounds like very easy exp to me. :P.

~

"I would be honoured to fight next to Graf. We can do some smiggedy damage to those blasted units and kill their chief. I do think they can point a new chief though but it would be a blow in their face with a gauntlet that we take out their chief so fast."

He looks at the battle plan in front of him. "I do not really like it to "mount" one of these dwawven monsters but their stats speak for themselves. They will inflict massive damage, especially with my leadership bonus... Hmmm..." he ponders something.

"If we launch an attack on the chief warlord, it will croak. There is no doubt in that. Even if the titans hate us and we miss like donkeys we will croak him. I don't know if we will level on a hit and run attack but if we do not, I say we stay and recieve a blow. Their stack, without a chief warlord leading it will only do a total of 18 hits when having Titans blessing. Not merely enough to destroy a tank, though enough to target out me or a Golmon knight."

Lokarat spits to the ground. "Fortunatly, they will be an unled chaotic bunch by then. Unable to direct attacks. Thus they will auto attack the tank, and while doing that, fail in destroying anything. I say it's a plan."

"Knight! Stack up, we have some shooting to do this turn!"
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat May 08, 2010 11:53 am

Azgrut wrote:Since an exp from a successful hit and run attack sounds like very easy exp to me. :P.


It sure is.

And the answer now that I think about it is NO, based on the comic ("beat us by losin'"). More so even, I think LtDave already answered this but I forgot it.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Sat May 08, 2010 11:56 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:As for the rest, seems ok, I'll give it more thought. I'm a bit wary of assassination as being the only option, and am wondering if there's some other way to minmax casualties that the Chief Warlord Carrot is blinding us from.


"Well that Chief Warlord is giving every stacks C and H are x1.1 damage modifier from his bonus, which is why I rather think he should be taken out first. The reason my stack is so small is because we have so few ranged units, and I wanted to maximise Lokarats leadership bonus. We could take more damage and not strike him directly, but I think with those fire dragons able to hit any of our units this turn, I'd rather we took as few hits in combat as possible eh wot!"
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Twoy » Sat May 08, 2010 3:08 pm

I think we've given good advice to our chief warlord. Now it's up to each warlord to consent, and our chief warlord to select the final course of action. Shall we proceed, gentlemen?
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Sat May 08, 2010 3:14 pm

Reverse calculations suggest that any Chief Warlord assassination stack lead by Lokarat needs a minimum attack of 86 to definitely kill him
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby LTDave » Sun May 09, 2010 6:02 am

Two or Three Questions:

Q: Dave, do commanders leading a ranged stack get exp from a hit and run assault?
A: No, the opponent needs to have a chance to inflict hits in order to gain experience.

Q: And staying with range, does a hit and run attack reduce effectiveness of defending units?
A: No, they will fight at full strength in a subsequent battle.

Q: Does each commander in a stack gain experience in a victorious combat?
A: No. Only the highest ranked commander will *level*
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby The Black Hand » Sun May 09, 2010 6:17 am

Delacroix hmmed, chewing upon his lower lip.

"Kettwey, your plan looks sound, but there's something that doesn't feel quite right about this situation," he said. "Perhaps you should take some of my Militants with you, to be on the safe side - they may not be the most potent of our infantry forces, but they might be a help if worse comes to worst."
The strength of our future lies in our past.
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There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Twoy » Sun May 09, 2010 7:16 am

The list of rules is very short, but somehow I missed this one until just now.
At the end of the Alliance turn, all units on both sides that have partial hits are healed.

Since ranged attackers don't get xp, and multiple warlords in one stack can't get xp, I think we need to completely relook the plan.

Here's a slight modification to the recommendation. Note: All of these numbers are likely off by a point or two because I am not exactly sure who gets the chief warlord bonus.

Stack 1 attacks stack D for a non-ranged attack targetting the commandew with additional points going to the front of the stack.
Spoiler: show
Huwwicane
Copperhead
Golmon Knights x 3
Graf Zepellin
Duke Kettwey
Prince Lokarat
15-30 hits to the enemy killing the commandew with 3-18 points hitting the Gowem.
14-29 hits to the Huwwicane.
55% chance the leader gets an xp.


Stack 2 attacks Stack H
Spoiler: show
Dwaconian x 2
Confessor Delacroix
Lord Dwakvir
12-24 hits to Goblins killing 4-8 of them.
8-17 hits to the Dwaconian.
70% chance the leader gets an xp.


Stack 3 attacks Stack C with a ranged attack
Spoiler: show
Battlehawk
No damage, no xp.


Stack 4 attacks Stack D
Spoiler: show
Ewephant
Minotaur x 5
Edmund
Peter
14-28 hits to the enemy w/ 60% chance to kill the Gowen and about 5% chance to kill a field twoll.
12-24 hits to the Ewephant.
60% chance the leader gets an xp.


Stack 5 attacks Stack H
Spoiler: show
Siege Tank
Champions x 2
Gen. Dagnabbit
13-26 hits to the enemy with all gobwins dead.
6-12 hits to the Siege Tank.
100% chance the leader gets an xp.


If Nether-Erf were here we could have the Steam Fly hit Stack C and let Nether-Erf finish off at least one of the Field Twolls in Stack D and maybe both of them.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun May 09, 2010 2:32 pm

LtDave, the following plan needs answers to these questions- pending them, we can see how feasible it is.

1) Huwwicanes have move 1. So, Huwwicane attacks a stack in the adjacent hex, but that's on a road. Does the Huwwie have enough move left to return to the starting position?

2) Let's say we croak the Gowem in stack D (and we will). Does the next chunk of damage that Team Bruiser apply be multiplied by the new average defense or not?

3) Average defense is NOT rounded (either up or down), only the final result (the damage dealt) is, right?

=========

"This was all good advice, but I do believe it to be based on a shaky premise. Namely, that we must target the Chief Warlord".

"Look at the Gowem and 2 Twoll stack. 5 average defense, plus 2 defense from the terrain, makes fighting it akin to punching a cliff."

"However, the Commander stack has a mere 4.5 average defense, which makes attacking it more tractable. Why spoil our advantage and kill the Commander first?"

"Here is what I propose, for round one of the combat."

Team Spotter
1 Dwaconian
Graf Zeppellin

Team Bruiser
1 Elephant
1 Siege Tank
1 Huwwicane
5 Minotaurs
Prince Lokarat

Team Punching Bag A
1 Twain
2 Golmon Knights

Team Punching Bag B
1 Steam Fly
1 Golmon Knight

"All of our stacks will return to the original position after the combat is finished, however many rounds it takes."

"First, Team Spotter will attack the 8 Gobwin stack, remaining in the hex until combat is over. There is a chance for this to result in one XP for me, but that is not the issue." (Team Spotter does, before random number, 12 damage; the gobwin stack would do 13).

"Next, Team Bruiser will attack the Commander stack. There shall be NO TARGETED FIRE, simple combat instead. Team Bruiser will inflict, before the random number is applied, 66 Damage. It will result in the croaking of the Gowem, and if the Titans favour us, the entire Commander stack. Prince Lokarat will gain an XP, as the attack of the Commander stack, before the random number, is 21. Even if the Commander stack survives, it will be easier picking for round 2."

"Finally for round 1, Team Punching Bag A will attack the stack of Gowem-2Field Twolls. It will receive at most 23 damage from them."

"We should incur no casualties in round 1."

"So for round 2, we can begin by attacking any stack we wish. All remaining enemy stacks will deal half of retaliation damage. We will have the following resources remaining, which for now I will leave to the commanders to share among each other. There is a good chance for plenty of XPs to be gained."

pre-formed Stacks
Team Punching Bag B: use it to either allow re-attacking some squishier stack, or to reduce retaliation damage even more

Commanders:

Lord Dwakvir
Confessor Marcion Delacroix
Duke Kettwey
General Dagnabit
High King Peter
King Edmund

Troops:

1 Copperhead ACU (since it cannot stack with any significant amount of troops, should attack last, hit-and-run style)
10 Kanite Militants
5 Dwacon Knights
1 Dwaconian (at 30 HP, it's the last remaining true meat-shield in the roster; use it wisely)
2 Dwarf Champions
7 Axe Dwarfs
1 Battle Hawk

Total attack (for troops and commanders) is (simple attack sum mind, no command bonus applied, no defense divided etc) 147.

"We should start, if all commanders agree, with round 1 before deciding how to further allocate troops for round 2."

(Well, what?! It's a big-boop battle. There's 3 stacks of 'em outside the door! And 4 more hot on their tails!)
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby LTDave » Sun May 09, 2010 7:09 pm

1) Huwwicanes have move 1. So, Huwwicane attacks a stack in the adjacent hex, but that's on a road. Does the Huwwie have enough move left to return to the starting position?
A: Yes.


2) Let's say we croak the Gowem in stack D (and we will). Does the next chunk of damage that Team Bruiser apply be multiplied by the new average defense or not?
A. No - the Average Defence is based on starting units. It is not altered until the next combat (that is, the next stack to attack).


3) Average defense is NOT rounded (either up or down), only the final result (the damage dealt) is, right?
A. Correct. In the spreadsheet it may appear as a whole number, but that is only because of excel showing 0 decimals.

Q: Has the Alliance considered crossing the river at another point to deny the Gobwins the bridge bonus?
A: I don't know.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby kriss » Sun May 09, 2010 10:10 pm

Don't rivers take ALL ground movement?
I think therefore I am. This leaves you in a bad spot.

Army inteligence is sadly an oximoron these days. And no General, I did not just call you a cow.

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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Azgrut » Mon May 10, 2010 5:51 am

Another question to Dave.

Can defending stack direct hits to opponents the same way attacking stacks can?

If answer to this is yes, then all commanders are in much danger. An opponent stack inflicting a total of 16 hits after defence could, for instance, croak me in defence. Maybe the'll be completely destroyed because they redirected the damage (taking 4 times more hits) but then they do croak a level 5 commander.

So Dave? What about it?
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby LTDave » Mon May 10, 2010 6:08 am

Q: Don't rivers take ALL ground movement?
A: Yes. It would take a turn to go around, but the defenders would no longer have the +2 Terrain Bonus.

Q: Can defending stack direct hits to opponents the same way attacking stacks can?
A: Yes. In general I'll try to cwoak units where I can, but tempting targets are tempting...

This rule was introduced to try and minimise the impact of soak units, like the 'ol Diwigible. Given the choice between cwoaking a lot of grunts or one high level commander, I'll choose the grunts. But given the choice between slightly damaging an auto-heal unit and cwoaking a high level commander, the choice is always going to be commander.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon May 10, 2010 6:20 am

Pay no heed to the GM's siren call, we probably need to attack fast now, before those other stacks show up ...

... Or maybe? I'm open to suggestions and calculations about what can happen if we do not attack soon, but instead try to move around (it will be slower in some regards, but negating the defense bonus; somebody run scenarios for that).

In any case, I think targetting the enemy Commander is a bad idea. It's the Commander that, paradoxically, keeps the stack weak! And a 1.3 (lvl2+CW) bonus is not too large to worry about.

Targetting Lokarat- This is a problem.

Team Bruiser would receive a max of 24 damage from the Commandew stack, which if applied directly to Lokarat would be enough to croak. So some new order of attack is required-

Team Spotter goes for the Gobwins; Team PB A goes for the Commandew stack (and may need one more def-5 unit in there to ensure complete survival, btw)*, Team PB B goes for the Gowem stack (again, one more 5-Def unit would be handy)*, and NOW Team Bruiser goes for the Commandew stack. Which would deal a mere 12 Damage (max), insufficient to croak Lokarat.

*: there is a chance for both of these stacks to survive completely, but they may also get croaked unless the defense average is high enough. Hence the 5-Def units (or 4-Def units, we need to see what we can scrunge up, so that further assaults are not gimped while we do not take too many risks either). Ideas welcome.

EDIT: Wait, some Mathmancy for the Punching Bag stacks.

Spoiler: show
Commandew stack deals 1.3*(30 + 5 + 5 + 4) = 57.2 Damage sum. Gowem stack does 1.1*(30 + 5 + 5) = 44 Damage sum.

Punching Bag A has 3.(6) average defense, Punching Bag B has 3 average defense.

Meaning, Punching Bag A would receive max. 30 Damage from Commandew stack (and would surely survive attacking the Gowem stack instead),
Punching Bag B would receive max 27 Damage from Gowem stack, and is guaranteed survival.

Suppose Punching Bag A gets an additional 4-Def unit. It's average defense is now 3.75, and it would still receive max 30 damage from the Commandew stack. Same max damage for adding two 4-def units.

Adding a 5-def unit to Punching Bag A instead would raise its average defense to 4, and it would receive 28 damage from the Commandew stack, ensuring survival. The problem however is that we're "out" of 5-Def units. I mean, we still have the Dwaconian, but I'm not sure about sending that strong unit on what is essentially a soak job.


Bottom line, Punching Bag B can safely go after the Gowem stack, however Punching Bag A would need a little Defense increase to be assured complete survival against the Commandew stack.

There is another option, and that is Team Spotter attacking the Commandew stack. Max damage that Commandew stack can inflict to Spotter is 21 (so, Graf would be living a bit dangerously).
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Azgrut » Mon May 10, 2010 7:57 am

If I make a stack as the first battle plan suggested and take out the chief warlord with a ranged stack, the warlord would be croaked before he can inflict hits. The units will thus auto attack and inflict hits on steam tanks, inflicting not enough to actually croak stuff. Thus an attack like that would croak the chief warlord, granting exp and removing the possibility of him croaking lokarat.

Maybe though I should have given the guy some more hits. I did not really figured the impact of this rule... :P.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon May 10, 2010 8:56 am

Azgrut wrote:If I make a stack as the first battle plan suggested and take out the chief warlord with a ranged stack, the warlord would be croaked before he can inflict hits. The units will thus auto attack and inflict hits on steam tanks, inflicting not enough to actually croak stuff. Thus an attack like that would croak the chief warlord, granting exp and removing the possibility of him croaking lokarat.

Maybe though I should have given the guy some more hits. I did not really figured the impact of this rule... :P.


Well, we need to level up High King Peter and King Edward, obviously.

But until then, I'd like to also see options that do not involve croaking the Chief Warlord in a targeted attack. It's a waste of attack, and it weakens further attacks.

Plus, stack Punching Bag A, as described, will soak damage and reduce retaliation for a future strike by Lokarat in Team Bruiser.
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Re: The Battle for Gobwin Bump: Book Two

Postby Sihoiba » Mon May 10, 2010 9:06 am

"Ah going around I'm rather ashamed I missed that, eh wot! How about this, if I lead the following around from the side in a hit and run attack:

CopperHead ACU
Golman Battle Hawk
Duke Kettwey
Attack 22 Hits 18 Av Defence 2 Ranged, Flying
I could deal 6-13 damage, (with a 18% chance of killing the Chief Warlord if I targeted him).

If I do that first, and we jolly well plan from there. If the Chief Warlord survives we organise our forces so we have a stack capable of hitting the Chief Warlord stack and cwoaking him lead by whoever could survive the retaliatory damage, and as many of his units, using our remaining forces to pound the other stacks. If he dies we focus on killing the Gobwins and doing as much damage as we can to the other two. Only his stack is capable of targetting one of us.

Alternatively I hit the Gobwin stack (9-18 damage) reducing killing 3-6 of them, taking 2-12 hits to the Copperhead and gaining 1xp, and leaving them easier fodder for later. Thoughts?"

----------

Lt_Dave is it possible for a ranged high move stack to choose whether to stay and take the hits or run after it's seen how much damage has been dealt?
Last edited by Sihoiba on Tue May 11, 2010 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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