The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:48 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Btw, let's see how the Diwigible fares with this formula. (From memory: Diwigible had 50 HP, 21 Attack , I'll need to make it move 5 as it's a flier, and might as well put in defense 5.) 2500/8 + 26/2 + 2500*5/2 + 0 = 312.5 + 13 + 6250 = 6575.5(!!).
Not quite. The last number (2500*5/2) should be (50*5/2), so the final is 312.5+13+125, for 450.5.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:07 pm

Collating ideas thrown around so far:

Players:

1) WM314 (Co-GM, but yes, I'll still play) :D
2) Nihila (Co-GM)
3) Crovius
4) Twoy
5) BLANDCorporatio
6) LtDave
7) Sihoiba
8) Siralus

Places:
Dhrystone
Oshkosh
Warchalking
Unaroyal City

Ideas:
Casters!
Unit Cost rework
==(Twoy) Cost = [(HITS²/4) + (ATTACK + DEFENCE)] x 0.5 + [(HITS x MOVE) x 0.5]+ SPECIAL
==(BLAND) Cost = Hits*Move/2 + Defense*(Hits^(2/3))/2 + Attack + Special; Attack <= Hits ^(2/3)
True Siege
Reworking fortifications
==Walls have HP; units can get through depending on damage

I want to start with the GB combat system and test both these new cost formulas for any potential imbalances/exploits/etc. What do you guys think?
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Twoy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:52 am

Someone please explain what this means (Hits^(2/3))
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:23 am

It's the square of the cube root.

For example, 27^(2/3) is 9: cube root of 27 (which is 3) squared (which is 9). Usually this will not be an integer, so we should probably round it up.

Spoiler: show
The reason for that, again, is a (not very rigurous, true) association between HP and unit mass, then volume. If HP is proportional to volume, then HP^(2/3) is proportional to area.


PS: we could have a special, costed appropriately for balance, that allows attack to go above HP^(2/3).
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:10 am

BLAND, why is Attack limited to Hits^(2/3)? That's like, 10 for a 30 hit unit. (Well, really, 9.6 something, but I'm guessing that we're rounding up). Is that the intention of this?
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:17 am

Nihila wrote:BLAND, why is Attack limited to Hits^(2/3)? That's like, 10 for a 30 hit unit. (Well, really, 9.6 something, but I'm guessing that we're rounding up). Is that the intention of this?


Amazingly, YES.

Although now that I look at it, the limitation is a bit harsh. Maybe add a multiplicative constant in there somewhere or something to sweeten it.

Nonetheless, some of the fiercest animals are the wolverine, the pitbul, the piranha ... common thing being, they are not that big. But with great power to weight ratios. Power to weight tends to get worse the further up you go in terms of size.

PS:

And remember, for some extra (Special) cost, I'm willing to let units go above that cap.

The reason for the HP^(2/3) assumes units use their muscles and support structures (and appendages) for damage. Mostly true about simple infantry and archers. However, if the unit was say a bomb, then its mass is what decides its damage power.

PPS: Or hey why not, imagine archers firing nukes. That should surely go way above HP (and be a way expensive special).
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:26 am

And I've tried tabulating the cap as it is now, no adjustments-

Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
(First column is HP, second is HP^(2/3), next is Attack (max), last one is Attack Max/HP)
1   1   1   1
2   1.59   2   1
3   2.08   3   1
4   2.52   3   0.75
5   2.92   3   0.6
6   3.3   4   0.67
7   3.66   4   0.57
8   4   4   0.5
9   4.33   5   0.56
10   4.64   5   0.5
11   4.95   5   0.45
12   5.24   6   0.5
13   5.53   6   0.46
14   5.81   6   0.43
15   6.08   7   0.47
16   6.35   7   0.44
17   6.61   7   0.41
18   6.87   7   0.39
19   7.12   8   0.42
20   7.37   8   0.4
21   7.61   8   0.38
22   7.85   8   0.36
23   8.09   9   0.39
24   8.32   9   0.38
25   8.55   9   0.36
26   8.78   9   0.35
27   9   9   0.33
28   9.22   10   0.36
29   9.44   10   0.34
30   9.65   10   0.33
31   9.87   10   0.32
32   10.08   11   0.34
33   10.29   11   0.33
34   10.5   11   0.32
35   10.7   11   0.31


Until about HP=4 you can have Attack=HP. By HP=8, attack drops to a half. Twiddling a bit with the system of capping may move this to wherever you want your typical units to be in terms of HP.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:27 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The reason for the HP^(2/3) assumes units use their muscles and support structures (and appendages) for damage. Mostly true about simple infantry and archers. However, if the unit was say a bomb, then its mass is what decides its damage power.
[joke]Oh, here's a new special:
Explosive: Cost=Hits
Unit can only engage in one combat. Unit croaks at end of combat. Allows up to {large number}*Hits Attack points.[/joke]
Though, that would make combat more entertaining.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Siralus » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:28 pm

Were it to exist, I'd take it with 0 move and the ability to ride. Then I'd find some fliers.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Crovius » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:52 pm

Air raids!!! Then someone needs to name their side Germany and attack a city named London so we can reinact the Blitz.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:58 pm

Crovius wrote:Air raids!!! Then someone needs to name their side Germany and attack a city named London so we can reinact the Blitz.
We'd need a bullet-type unit, too. With one hit, one attack, no move, and rider. And we'd need an air unit with a lot of Cargo to hold it.

In all seriousness, we'll just stick with the basic formulae for now, and modify them later.
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:35 am

:lol:

I see you guys embraced this (not quite yet) system in good humour! Maybe some other time then we might actually try it! Or not, as the case may be.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:06 am

For the initial skirmishes, I think we'll just be working with the old specials--Scout, Warlord, Ranged--and the new formulae. Later, we'll start experimenting with other specials, and probably casting.
"The Infantrymen of Erfworld have nothing to lose but their chains. They have Erfworld to win. Infantry of all sides: Unite!"--Kawl Mawx, Master-class Moneymancer
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:34 pm

Aye - Nihila and I are actually thinking about splitting you guys into two sides, each with a given cost formula. It'll make things interesting, at least, while we test out these new formulae. More info to come.

PS: Good news - I've gotten a representation of the hex grid set up, so I can now walk an imaginary unit around and not fall off the edge of the map! :P

Next thing is to implement terrain types... and properly accounting for mounting. You wouldn't believe how annoying mounting is. :P
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:56 pm

BLAND, about your cost formula, WaterMonkey came up with the following unit:
Bunker:
Hits: 10000
Attack: 31
Defense: 0
Move: 0
Special: Ranged
Cost: 62!

...
...
...
Perhaps the cost formula needs a slight adjustment to prevent this, unless you particularly want to have to take a city from solid-Titan-ium monstrosities.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:56 am

Ah right, Move=0 is possible.

Ok, "If you just wish to bury bombs there is no limit to the size" as a wiseman once said. So it should be easier for static things to grow large- though not that large. So, in the formula, Garrison Move is replaced by either 0.5 or 0.75 or such.

Which would place that unit somewhere around 2500 in cost (for 0.5 "Move") or 3750 (for 0.75 "Move").

EDIT: what's this talk of a Cargo Special I hear?

EDIT, 2:

You know what, I'm still not happy. I understand that Garrison Units have comic support, however if I remember TBfGB correctly they proved to be quite a pain in turms of popping. Way easy to surpass an attacker's firepower with just Garrison units, even in that formula.

So there has to be some other part of the system to balance it. Limits on city troops? Or maybe a Garrison Special, that makes a unit have Move 1 for cost calculation purposes, disallows movement however, and reduces the overall cost by something like 10%? It's still easier to bulk up in Garrison units than it is for the attacker to put the squeeze on, but the disparity is not that large.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:05 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:EDIT: what's this talk of a Cargo Special I hear?
At the moment, speculative. My guess is that if mounts are hard to program, Cargo would be a giant headache.
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:07 am

Mounts and such are not difficult to "program", what do you mean?
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby Nihila » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:11 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Mounts and such are not difficult to "program", what do you mean?
WaterMonkey314 wrote:PS: Good news - I've gotten a representation of the hex grid set up, so I can now walk an imaginary unit around and not fall off the edge of the map!

Next thing is to implement terrain types... and properly accounting for mounting. You wouldn't believe how annoying mounting is.
WaterMonkey's getting a computer to do some of our work for us, like keeping track of our Mist screen, though with my knowledge of programming (zilch), I don't know exactly what he's trying to do with mounts et al. :P
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Re: The Battle for... somewhere - Provisional Signups

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:14 am

Ah, right. Watermonkey314 will explain.

But whatever is being used, either some XML parser or a database can handle that kind of thing (pure spreadsheets- yeah maybe not).

Even better, a freeware game engine. Haven't looked over a list of those yet, but I'm sure someone already has put up on Sourceforge something that fits our purposes fine. If not, it needs to be there, and if Watermonkey314's willing to code, so am I.
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