The Battle for {Insert Name Here}

[Twoy]

That applies to the enemy, too.

That's true, but the only thing I'm concerned about is if throwing out the 8 unit attack cap can be abused, and I don't think it can. Having two stacks of 8 infantry is not abuse of the system, in my opinion. It is the way Erfworld is supposed to run.

I have a modification of my recommended first three attacks. It requires approval from the Thundermen since they will fight the battle against the solo dwagon, and I have to ride the Thunder Lizard to get within attack range, and from the Genericans, since we are using all their forces to attack.

At C3:
a. Thunder Infantry x 7, CDR Thunder.
1 infantry cwoaks. 1 Dwagon Cwoaks.

At C4:
King Edmund rides a Thunder Lizard from B2 to C2 allowing him to get into attack range of C4.

a. Guardsman x 5, Ogre x 1, Guardsman x 1, King Edmund: Attack-165.6, Def-5.
Worst case scenario: 5 Guardsman cwoak, 1-2 Dwagons cwoak.

b. Ogre x 1, Guardsman x 2, CPT-GEN Genericus: Attack-79.8, Def-5.
No allied units cwoak, 1-2 Dwagons Cwoak.

After that it will be no problem to finish off the stack. We would have to do an order of merit for who most needs the xps. I think the order of merit list at this point should be CDR Vis, CDR Lightning then CDR Agrach.

The advantage of this plan over the previous one is that a) we will lose one less Guardsman, b) we are guaranteed to take out a dwagon on the second attack, c) CPT-GEN Genericus will get an xp, whereas he would not have in the earlier plan, d) it is slightly more likely that CDR Lightning and CDR Agrach will get the opportunity to earn an xp on this turn.

Can I get the nod of approval from the Thundermen and the Genericans?

[zilfallon]

-Well Chief, that dwagons will hit our dwakes this turn, if we don't croak them. So, we either form a column with ranged units and pull the dwakes back, or hit the dwagons with the forces you mentioned. The real danger is not the lone dwagon, our first priority should be that stack of 6 dwagons.

[Twoy]

-Well Chief, that dwagons will hit our dwakes this turn, if we don't croak them. So, we either form a column with ranged units and pull the dwakes back, or hit the dwagons with the forces you mentioned. The real danger is not the lone dwagon, our first priority should be that stack of 6 dwagons.

We have to move through the space where th solo dragon is before we can get to the big stack. Also, don't get me confused now. The big stack is only 5 dwagons.

[Siralus]

This all meets with the approval of the Thundermen...

Enough talk! Let it be finished!

[zilfallon]

-So, what is the exact plan? If it doesn't involve Vis and his dwakes, I will order them a few hexes back so dwagons can't hit-n-run. If it involves me and my bezekiwa, I will march to their deaths.

[Twoy]

-So, what is the exact plan? If it doesn't involve Vis and his dwakes, I will order them a few hexes back so dwagons can't hit-n-run. If it involves me and my bezekiwa, I will march to their deaths.

Yours is the fourth battle in the schedule, but I can't list units until after we determine the first three battles. It will probably by CDR Vis and two or three of his dwakes.

[Nihila]

So, we'll throw out the attack cap, then. I think.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Apparently the decision is made, but if anyone wanted some background of where the top-8 limit came from.

Spoiler: show

When we (LtDave, Crovius, Azgrut, turbler, Sihoiba, The Black Hand and myself) were discussing a new ruleset that would eventually become TBfGB 2, I wrote this post where I tried to suggest a way to handle the attack/defense issue in the game system. I think that was the first time the top-8 idea entered the discussion.

The reason for it- the difference between the attack sum (over the top-8 attacking units) and the defense sum (over the top-8 defending unit) was used to calculate a multiplicative bonus/penalty for damage dealt, a-la Heroes of Might and Magic. This was to favour a mix of units, where you'd have some tough and defensive units in the front, and more offensive, but berserkerish, units at the end of the stack (attack sum was, in that post, to be over the entire stack; damage dealt was found multiplying this attack sum by whatever bonuses).

That idea was dropped, but for whatever reason the top-8 stuck. It strongly favoured stacks of at most 8 units, for one. For another thing, TBfGB 1 had a stack bonus that decreased after 8 units, but people found that penalties did not justify splitting stacks (not when you had good but few commanders). So the effect of the stack bonus turned out to be weak-ish.

What this gets at is that it's probably no problem to ditch the top-8 limit on the attack sum.

[Nihila]

That idea was dropped, but for whatever reason the top-8 stuck. It strongly favoured stacks of at most 8 units, for one. For another thing, TBfGB 1 had a stack bonus that decreased after 8 units, but people found that penalties did not justify splitting stacks (not when you had good but few commanders). So the effect of the stack bonus turned out to be weak-ish.

Hmm... Well, we could fix that with a much swifter drop after 8. Like:

1-x1.0
2-x1.2
3-x1.3
4-x1.4
5-x1.5
6-x1.6
7-x1.7
8-x1.8
9-x1.4
10-x1.0
and 1.0 the rest of the way.

Thoughts?

Edit: or maybe, 9-1.6, 10-1.4, 11-1.2, 12-1.0, and on.

[zilfallon]

That idea was dropped, but for whatever reason the top-8 stuck. It strongly favoured stacks of at most 8 units, for one. For another thing, TBfGB 1 had a stack bonus that decreased after 8 units, but people found that penalties did not justify splitting stacks (not when you had good but few commanders). So the effect of the stack bonus turned out to be weak-ish.

Hmm... Well, we could fix that with a much swifter drop after 8. Like:

1-x1.0
2-x1.2
3-x1.3
4-x1.4
5-x1.5
6-x1.6
7-x1.7
8-x1.8
9-x1.4
10-x1.0
and 1.0 the rest of the way.

Thoughts?

Edit: or maybe, 9-1.6, 10-1.4, 11-1.2, 12-1.0, and on.

Can I sell 1 dwake and 1 bezekiwa? Can anyone do this mathamancy for me? Is 8 bezekiwa + Agrach better than 7 bezekiwa + Agrach, with stack bonus 1.8 at 8, 1.4 at 9? I just don't know the mechanics enough to run a calculation, and am too sleepy to play with numbers.

[Nihila]

@zilfallon: Honestly, that's what prompted the second thing. I thought that I might be being a little draconian. However... I just don't know. The bezekiwa and dwake can be used in other ways, like reserves, but let's vote--options listed below:
1) Keep current system, declines by .1 for each unit after 8.
2) Draconian system, declines by .4 for each unit after 8.
3) Compromise system, declines by .2 for each unit after 8.

[zilfallon]

Well, I will post my vote around 20 hours from now on(basically, tomorrow). Real life issues are too important to ignore and do mathamancy now, sorry about the delay. If it is okay, I'll post my vote tomorrow, if not, count my vote as #3.

[LTDave]

I vote B.

And I approve the attack plan, above. Go for it.

FYI, I'm in Australia, so I'm at least 12 hours out of sync with the rest of you. Please don't wait for me to respond before taking action, it will slow the whole thing down.

Cheers

[Twoy]

I like the progression of A, but I think I have to vote for C.

With .1 decline:
8 units of 8 attack have 115.
7 units of 8 attack have 122.
6 units of 8 attack are 128.

The attack sum does not decline fast enough with system A.

I will run the first three battles when I return from work.

[Twoy]

Turn 2, Battle 1:
Thunder Infantry x 7, CDR Thunder (Attack-91.8, Def-4.13) moves from B2 to C3 and engages 1 Dwagon (Att-17, Def-5).

[Twoy]

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: C3
TIME OF POST (in minutes and seconds): 5544

Spoiler: show

Attacker:
Total Attack Value: 92
Level of Highest Commander: 1
Total Defence of Stack: 33
Number of Units: 8
Average Defence: 4.13
Terrain Bonus of Hex: 0.0
Special Bonus: 1.0
Random Percentage: 90%
Total Damage: 91

Hits Inflicted on the Enemy: 34.08

Defender
Total Attack Value: 17
Number of Units: 1
Level of Highest Commander: 0
Total Defence of Stack: 5
Number of Units: 1
Average Defence: 5.00
Terrain Bonus of Hex: 0.0
Special Bonus: 1.00
Ambush Bonus: 1.0
Random Percentage: 50%
Total Damage: 8

Hits Inflicted on the Enemy: 4.12

Allies infict 34.08 Hits, GK inflicts 4.12 Hits.
No Allies cwoaked.1 thunder Infantry takes 4 Hits. 1 Dwagon cwoaked. CDR Thunder gains 1 xp.

[Twoy]

Turn 2, Battle 2:
King Edmund orders all units in A1 to advance to C2. King Edmund moves from A1 to B2, mounts a Thunder Lizard and orders Thunder Lizard x 2 to advance to C2. King Edmund dismounts and stacks with Guardsman x 6 and Ogre x 1 and advances to C4.
Guardsman x 5, Ogre x 1, Guardsman x 1, King Edmund (Attack-165.6, Def-5) attacks Dwagon x 5 (Attack-127.5, Def-5).

[Twoy]

Defender gets first strike:

Spoiler: show

COMBAT!
Defender
Total Attack Value: 127.5
Number of Units: 5
Level of Highest Commander: 0
Total Defence of Stack: 25
Number of Units: 5
Average Defence: 5.00
Terrain Bonus of Hex: 0.0
Special Bonus: 1.00
Ambush Bonus: 1.0
Random Percentage: 70%
Total Damage: 89

Hits Inflicted on the Enemy: 33.47

Defender cwoaks 5 Guardsman, Ogre takes 3 Hits

Surviving Attackers (Att-61, Def-5) attack:

Spoiler: show

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: C3
TIME OF POST (in minutes and seconds): 1321
Attacker:
Total Attack Value: 61
Level of Highest Commander: 4
Total Defence of Stack: 15
Number of Units: 3
Average Defence: 5.00
Terrain Bonus of Hex: 0.0
Special Bonus: 1.0
Random Percentage: 50%
Total Damage: 43

Hits Inflicted on the Enemy: 16.01

Attacker cwoaks 1 Dwagon. No xp for anyone.

[Twoy]

Turn 2, Battle 3:
CPT-GEN Genericus orders all of his units left behind to follow him to C4 after C4 is cleared if they do not receive other orders by the time the hex is cleard, then he leads his stack from C2 to C4.

Ogre x 1, Guardsman x 2, CPT-GEN Genericus (Attack-79.8, Def-5) vs. Dwagon x 4 (Att-95.2, Def-5)

[Twoy]

Defender gets first strike.

Spoiler: show

COMBAT!
Battle is joined in hex: C3
TIME OF POST (in minutes and seconds): 3240
Attacker:
Total Attack Value: 80
Level of Highest Commander: 3
Total Defence of Stack: 20
Number of Units: 4
Average Defence: 5.00
Terrain Bonus of Hex: 0.0
Special Bonus: 1.0
Random Percentage: 55%
Total Damage: 57

Hits Inflicted on the Enemy: 21.40

Defender
Total Attack Value: 95.2
Number of Units: 4
Level of Highest Commander: 0
Total Defence of Stack: 20
Number of Units: 4
Average Defence: 5.00
Terrain Bonus of Hex: 0.0
Special Bonus: 0.50
Ambush Bonus: 1.0
Random Percentage: 65%
Total Damage: 31

Hits Inflicted on the Enemy: 11.60

Ogre takes 12 Hits from Defender's first strike. Attacker cwoaks 1 Dwagon. Another Dwagon takes 5 Hits.

Surviving Dwagons are 2 at full Hits and 1 with 11 Hits remaining.