Erfworld Game Revived?

[HerbieRai]

I like it. The only thing it doesn't have is a direct "stack bonus". Although inadvertently it does, since you can only have 8 units.

Question: Many abilities, like fire breath, say +X combat, or -X combat. Is this only to attack, or does it affect defense as well?

Does the spreadsheet take into account the different terrain types? Or would that be added in to the base attack/ base defense?

Is there a max bonus for fabricated items? With how much income a side can generate, there should be something a side from making a sword with +50 attack. (it would take 25 fabricaters 12 turns to make. Hard, but not impossible(1750 smuckers/turn total of 21000 smuckers).

I think you need an if statement in either B4/B13, or E2/E12 to cancel when the one sides defense is higher than the other sides attack.

[Nihila]

Nope, sorry. This is cannon. I think that I will count mounted units and their mount as one unit for stacking purposes though.

Canon for Erfworld? Or for the game?

Because what Parson says about stacks is: "For instance, groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations." Which is different then a stack size maxing at 8.

And your spreadsheet still has the problem with damage for the first side. Which is because the formula for B4 should be =ROUND(N10-M20,0), not =ROUND(M20-N10,0).

[Twoy]

I think the best way to deal with stacks is to give a stack bonus something like:
2-4 units=x1.2
5-7 units=x1.4
8 units=x1.8
9-11 units=x1.4
11-13 units=x1.2
14+ units=x1

I think maxing stacks at 8 is a bad idea. 1. It's not cannon. 2. Sometimes it's just easier to move large stacks around the game board. If you get ambushed, then you should not have been so lazy.

[Nihila]

@Twoy: I would support a faster drop after 8 units.

In general, will our casters be able to make scrolls? Perhaps a Schmucker cost equal to the Juice cost of the spell, twice the Juice cost of the spell in Juice, and no other casting for turns spent working on Scrolls?

[HerbieRai]

What would be the cap for units / stack? There does need to be one. Else my stack of 100 (4,000 upkeep) archers is going to blow away anything except another massive stack. Also, if i give them a little defense, they should be next to unbeatable.

With the additive defense and attack, the max is going to have to be around 14 or lower. This game can easily lead to massive armies (level 5's can produce 12 mooks/ turn and generate 10,000 smuckers/ turn: enough to upkeep over 300 mooks), and if unit size isn't capped pretty low, then any bonus a stack of 8 get is going to be overpowered by shear numbers.

[Nihila]

HerbieRai raises a good point. Maybe the stack "bonus" should start declining to below 1 after it hits 1, then eventually stop at 0, at which point that stack would be incapable of attacking or defending due to logistical impossibilities. And then some natural allies (Doombats) would have the ability to prevent the "bonus" from dropping below 1, which is why they would be valuable allies.

[Twoy]

1 unit=x1
2-4 units=x1.2
5-7 units=x1.4
8 units=x1.8
9 units=x1.4
10 units=x1.2
11 units=x1
12 Units=x.8
13 units=x.4
12 units=x.2
13+=x0

I think counting mount and rider as one unit might be a problem.

Imagine a dragon with 20 hits carrying 3 riders. Now imagine 8 dragons, carrying a warlord and 23 archers in one stack.

[Foolamancer]

Imagine a dragon with 20 hits carrying 3 riders. Now imagine 8 dragons, carrying a warlord and 23 archers in one stack.

What are these "dragons" of which you speak?

[Twoy]

It's an imaginary creature used in this instance to illuminate a potential rules problem.

[HerbieRai]

Your dragon break could be fixed with one of 2 easy moves:

1) Mount and riders do not combine profiles, and count as separate units in combat

2) only allow one rider per mount. Won't follow the story.

I think thetobias is in his exam gauntlet he told us about. A few other questions:

If each city has a separate treasury (I think is stated somewhere), then which city do you take a units upkeep from? Is there a generic "transport" unit (like warlords) to carry funds between cities/ sides, and how much coinage can it carry?

[thetobias]

I am indeed in the exam-gauntlet

If a unit is mounted then the mount won't count to the stack bonus, so a mount with a warlord would count as one, but a mount with three archers would count as three.

Yes the cities have seperate treasuries. Upkeep is paid by every city following this formula: Total_Upkeep*(City_Income/Total_Income)

Warlords, rulers, casters and courtiers can carry money around. Their purse is infinite, however enemies that croak the unit carrying the money will plunder it.

[Nihila]

Good luck on your exams!

And, when you have some time, here are some more of my endless questions:
1) Will our Casters be able to create scrolls?
2) Is there a single "Forest-Capable" special, or are Light and Heavy Forest Capabilities separate?
3) Is "High Mountain Capable" a special, and does it grant any bonuses to Mountains if it is?
4) If a Warlord is promoted to Heir, does its upkeep rise?
5) What will the rules be for royal, noble, and common Warlords?
6) Will there be noble Casters?

[HerbieRai]

My fiancee is in her exam gauntlet to, and since I'm out of school, that leaves me with a bit of spare time

Anyway, I made a spreadsheet to help keep track of cities and finances for all the factions.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B52ki9oQ_GTEZTUwZjhjMTMtYjljMi00ZDliLWEyM2QtOTJiMGRiNDQ4ZWU4&hl=en&authkey=CNKOtYQF

A few notes:
1) you will get divide by 0 problems when you have 0 cities.
2) The colors are Red: No editing needed, values are calculated; Grey: entered once and should stay constant; Peach: entered at any time; Light green: changed at end of turn
3) I left cells for misc changes to income, although I can't think of a reason for them to be used (the overall ones, not the ones for each city
4) to add more cities, you just need to copy one city box and paste it at the bottom. I kept one cell apart for ease to read.
5) I guessed that a managed city got a 10% bonus per level of the manager. Just a guess
6) Total levels is the sum of all the levels of that kind of unit. Ex: 2 lvl 1 warlords and a lvl 8 warlord would be a 10 in that cell
I only did this for characters, since they're the only ones that get more expensive for leveling
7) Number upgraded is the number that have been promoted from garrison, only available for pikers and archers
8) DO NOT PUT ANYTHING IN COLUMN H or else you'll kill a catgirl
9) Assumed a 1% income loss / 1 hex distance modifier

I may add a info page for all these notes and how to use thingies

[Nihila]

6) Total levels is the sum of all the levels of that kind of unit. Ex: 2 lvl 1 warlords and a lvl 8 warlord would be a 10 in that cell
I only did this for characters, since they're the only ones that get more expensive for leveling

Just some Mathamancy:
1 Level 10 Warlord=100+9*50=550 Schmuckers per turn
2 Level 1 Warlords + 1 Level 8 Warlord=100+100+100+7*50=650 Schmuckers per turn

[HerbieRai]

Just some Mathamancy:
1 Level 10 Warlord=100+9*50=550 Schmuckers per turn
2 Level 1 Warlords + 1 Level 8 Warlord=100+100+100+7*50=650 Schmuckers per turn

I can put that in there, but the rules currently say "+50 / level", which would be 150 total for a level 1.

1 level 10 = 100 + 10*50 = 600
2 level 1 + 1 level 8 = 100+100+100+50+50+8*50 = 800

That total levels is different than the number of warlords, so the first option would be 200 less.

Also, I don't have any rounding, so you will get fractions right now. On list to fix

[Twoy]

If a rider and a mount count as one unit in the stack, how will you calculate the units' attributes.

If you have a 20/12/12/20/ mount and a 10/6/6/5/ rider, do the stats become 30/18/18/20 for this combined unit?

I think not counting the mount as a unit in the stack is going to cause some serious balance problems. The rule will allow a stack of 16 units to function as a stack of 8 units. The rule will basically require anyone who wants to win battles to send out stacks of mounts and riders. Non-riders will be of less value than cannon fodder. They will not be able to damage the mounted stacks, but the mounted stack will be able to level off of them.

[thetobias]

I'm still in my exams but I'll answer your questions anyway. I won't be out of the gauntlet until Thursday two weeks from now.

@ Nihila:

Will our Casters be able to create scrolls?

Yes, they will be, but I am still working on the magic system so you'll have to hold for that.

Is there a single "Forest-Capable" special, or are Light and Heavy Forest Capabilities separate?

Forest Capable is a single special.

Is "High Mountain Capable" a special, and does it grant any bonuses to Mountains if it is?

So is Mountain capable

If a Warlord is promoted to Heir, does its upkeep rise?

Yes, I'm still working on the numbers for that one though. (think +500/+400 schmuckers or so)

What will the rules be for royal, noble, and common Warlords?

+20% stats -20% xp req +20% upkeep for royal (10% chance of popping in a royal side), +10% stats -10% xp req +10% upkeep for noble, +50 loyalty for a popped ignoble warlord.
Leadership will also count as a stat for the increase. So a 5th level royal warlord

Will there be noble Casters?

I'm not sure yet but I don't see why not (not unless someone brings conclusive evidence of royal/noble warlords being non-cannonical)

@ HerbieRai:
Cool spreadsheet, though I will probably still want to make my own. I'm just weird like that

@ Twoy:
You raise a good point. Mounted unit stats will be calculated like this:

Spoiler: show

Hits: hits will be seperated, mounts and units will be attacked seperately (first the mounter, then the mount, unless a leadership unit is directing the attack)
Combat: IF(Unit=Rider;AVERAGE(Combat_Mount+Combat_Unit);AVERAGE(Combat_Mount+Combat_Unit)-4)
Defense:
IF(Unit=Rider;AVERAGE(Defense_Mount+Defense_Unit);AVERAGE(Defense_Mount+Defense_Unit)-4)
Move:
=Move_Mount

I think this system makes it work okay, responses?

Also: Woah, fun stuff: heavy seems to be a promotion now.

[Nihila]

Leadership will also count as a stat for the increase. So a 5th level royal warlord

I presume you were about to type "would give a leadership bonus of 6." there.

Also: Woah, fun stuff: heavy seems to be a promotion now.

You could have units with exactly 10 Hits have a choice to be heavy or not, and those units can get "promoted" permanently to heavy, reducing their capabilities. Those Hobgobwins seem to be Knights, so it fits pretty well with your chosen system.

And, the formulae for Riders/Mounts mean that both units have the average of the combats and defenses of the two units, right?

I don't think I've asked this question before. We'll see.
If a side is based on a Terrain, do flyers start with that Terrain Capability or do they have to buy it?

[Twoy]

@ Twoy: You raise a good point. Mounted unit stats will be calculated like this:

Spoiler: show

Hits: hits will be seperated, mounts and units will be attacked seperately (first the mounter, then the mount, unless a leadership unit is directing the attack)
Combat: IF(Unit=Rider;AVERAGE(Combat_Mount+Combat_Unit);AVERAGE(Combat_Mount+Combat_Unit)-4)
Defense:
IF(Unit=Rider;AVERAGE(Defense_Mount+Defense_Unit);AVERAGE(Defense_Mount+Defense_Unit)-4)
Move:
=Move_Mount

I think this system makes it work okay, responses?

That seems like it will work, but you need to update the battle calculator so that I can run some tests. It looks like this way, a stack of 8 dwagons attacking a stack of 8 dwagons and 8 knights would probably cwoak a bit less than half of the dwagons and knights before being cwoaked.

[Crovius]

And with this most recent update we learn units can be promoted to Heavy.