Darkness Rising

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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 9:26 am

Werebiscuit wrote:We're "faffing" about trying to find out the ramifications of our tactics.


Ideally true. In practice, a lot of time has been spent getting the basics expressed in alternate sentences. And the results of soon-to-be two days of back and forth are

-a competent plan that any bean counter on the planet could come up with
-a brilliant out of the box character (ab)use idea that had little timeshare in the tactical discussion anyway

Werebiscuit wrote:The only thing we've forgot to factor in so far is the movement of the gumps-- What move do they have Marbit ? It determines how close we can get the rams before we HAVE to move other units in


If the Archers won't fire on the inf clump siege, the Gumps may move on it. That however is an engagement that would have happened anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it happening sooner rather than later. If anything, I'd rather that it happened sooner, when our warriors are unscathed.

If the Archers fire on the inf siege clump, two possibilities. But whether or not the Gumps attack, it's now safe to bring our own ranged units in and get some retaliation.

Bottom line, at the moment, Gumps are not relevant to planning.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed May 23, 2012 9:38 am

OOC If Both archers and gumps can target our siege clump on the first turn it puts more pressure on us to have distractions in the field. No more "free infantry clump move" I'm not throwing these things up only to delay our plan but to make it cover more eventualities/OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 23, 2012 9:39 am

Regarding "Adjacent": I believe I've already defined that as being 'in the same level and in neighboring squares' in response to Attack Modifiers before. Regardless, that's the definition - it extends horizontally, not vertically.

Gumps have an in-hex move of 8 squares per round, same as any non-flying, non-ram-weilding unit.

Important Note : I've been playing around w/ Gimp, and have revised look of the battlefield a bit, hopefully to help keep things clearer. For the most part, this has no impact on any tactics discussed to this point, but be aware that a single Gump now occupies 4 squares (a 2x2 formation), just like the Battering Ram formation.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 9:42 am

Werebiscuit wrote:OOC If Both archers and gumps can target our siege clump on the first turn it puts more pressure on us to have distractions in the field. No more "free infantry clump move" I'm not throwing these things up only to delay our plan but to make it cover more eventualities/OOC


The "distractions" in question are fairly fragile. And necessary to attack their units. If we send in fliers along with inf siege, two things may happen.

Archers target inf siege clump. Then it's equivalent to my plan, so no change.

Archers target fliers. Because of higher combat, they get first shot. And they'll also get first shot next turn. Meaning, our Fliers would be put in a battle they are not equipped to win. OTOH, in my plan, our fliers will get one free round, at the possible cost of having our higher defense units annoyed by arrows. But our higher defense units are also better at soaking damage.

So can we please send in that inf siege clump now?

Especially since, by Marbit's latest post, the gumps won't reach the clumps this turn?

EDIT: nah, I'm sorry, I'm an ass. But we should start the battle, regardless, and so far the inf siege clump's the best game in town (EDIT, EDIT: as a starting move; the best game in town's the char abuse).
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed May 23, 2012 10:04 am

OOC By examining the ramifications we've proved your plan to be the most optimal and thus should go ahead. No more "objections" on that score from me.

Anyone else ? :twisted: /OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 23, 2012 10:58 am

Swodaems wrote:Okay, but how does that work in a 3D space? (We seem to have a ground level, a wall level, and a flier's only level.

That is correct: 3 levels. "Adjacent" doesn't span levels. The Cover Defense modifier only works if there is someone between you and the attacker at the same elevation as the attacker. A natural formation can also act as cover, but no such formation exists in this scenario.

So, Brickabats can only screen, at most, 8 units simultaneously.

Swodaems wrote:Is that what will happen if we give orders with conflicting conditionals? (IE. 'Archers, wait to fire until the fliers enter.' 'Fliers, wait to enter until the Archers have fired.')

Yes: when two conflicting conditionals are given, the turn will end without either being met. In your example, fliers will not enter the hex, and archers will not shoot.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Swodaems » Wed May 23, 2012 12:10 pm

If we're going to abandon my idea of flying the rams in, I have to say that I have a problem with the Flier block part of the plan mentioned earlier. The one which apparently involves me marching forward on the ground, being directly protected by bats while being covered by fliers in front and above me in a formation that is working seperately from the infantry. I'd like to get some more information about how things work first.

MarbitChow wrote:Cover : Any Strike or Fire action that passes through another enemy unit's square before it hits the intended target grants the target a +4 Cover Bonus for each occupied square it passes through. Units attacking from elevation against lower-elevation units can ignore the Cover bonus.

MarbitChow wrote:
Swodaems wrote:In this situation the fliers are giving up their elevation defense advantage to protect units that the enemy has an elevation adantage against. How would that effect the fliers' ability to do damage to units on the wall? Would they still be treated as if they're attacking from the same elevation or higher? Or would they now be attacking enemies with a +4 defense bonus?

In order to grant cover bonus, the fliers would need to be in front of the targets they're protecting at at the same level as the targets who are firing. The elves' would not get an elevation defense bonus, but neither would the fliers. Flier damage is thus unchanged, but their life expectancy may drop significantly.

There's a few things I would like clarified about the cover rules.
How far back would that cover bonus extend? (Does the arrow travel thru the middle elevation in a straight line until it drop on the head of its target? Can we stick the entire formation behind fliers to get a cover bonus?)
Can we stack the cover bonus from the fliers by putting multiple ones in front of the ground troops?
Would the back row of fliers in a 4x2 formation get a cover bonus against middle elevation archers with the entire formation placed at middle elevation? What if the formation was at highest elevation and the archers were firing from underneath? Would Bats contribute to cover if they were in front of someone but not screening him?
Can bats screen for bats?
Are there rules about dropping and picking up the ram we should know about? Does anything stop us from having the heavies move it in the first 5 squares and then pass it to fliers? How exactly did you come up with the speed mods of 8->5 and 12->8 while ram carrying? Was it as simple a conversion as takeing 2/3s of the unit's move and rounding down or to nearest whole?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Swodaems wrote:How far back would that cover bonus extend? (Does the arrow travel thru the middle elevation in a straight line until it drop on the head of its target? Can we stick the entire formation behind fliers to get a cover bonus?)

Ack. Cover is getting too complicated.

New Cover Defense Bonus Definition: If there is a Unit or Terrain (the 'Cover') that is adjacent to you, and between you and an attacker who has RLOS on you (i.e. a straight line drawn from you to the attacker passes through the Cover square), you receive a +4 Cover Defense bonus against any Strike or Fire action if the attacker is at the same or lower elevation as you. Only a single cover bonus is applied, no matter how much Cover is between you and a given attacker.

Swodaems wrote:Can we stack the cover bonus from the fliers by putting multiple ones in front of the ground troops?

You can only receive a max +4 Cover bonus, and only if the fliers, attackers, and ground troops are all at the same elevation, and the fliers are directly in front of the ground troops. See above.

Swodaems wrote:Would the back row of fliers in a 4x2 formation get a cover bonus against middle elevation archers with the entire formation placed at middle elevation? What if the formation was at highest elevation and the archers were firing from underneath?

As long as the fliers are at the same or higher elevation as the archers, all at the same elevation to each other, and adjacent to each other, any units other than those in the front row get a +4 Cover Defense bonus.

Swodaems wrote:Would Bats contribute to cover if they were in front of someone but not screening him?

Yes, same as any unit. Also note that a Bat assigned to screen a unit will negate a Fire attack, even if that attack could not have possibly caused any damage based on the target's defense. (In other words, they don't just negate 'successful' attacks.)

Swodaems wrote:Can bats screen for bats?

No, bats cannot be targeted by Fire actions, so they cannot screen for each other. The Brickabat Screen ability's cost cannot be circumvented by any means (and I will Retcon the bats to provide them additional immunities if a way is discovered). But, if the bats survive the entire combat with a single hit left, they will be restored to their full 8 hits at the beginning of the following turn, when all units heal.

Swodaems wrote:Are there rules about dropping and picking up the ram we should know about? Does anything stop us from having the heavies move it in the first 5 squares and then pass it to fliers?

4 units (including Fliers, but excluding Brickabats) are required to move the ram. If 2 fliers are killed, the ram is dropped. If one flier is killed, the ram cannot be moved until another flier is added to bring the total back to 4.

New fliers will not be able to move in fast enough between archers firing and fliers falling to replace slain fliers before it is dropped - all archer fire actions will resolve first.

If new units are substituted to replace fallen units, the ram can only be moved 2/3rds of the lowest remaining move for the 4 units carrying the ram, so for maximum effect, the new units would need to start in the same squares that the currently-carrying units ended in.

So, you could, in theory, rush the ram carriers (w/ out the ram) in 8 squares, then have the fliers fly the ram in 8 squares and drop it into the squares that the carries are occupying. This may gain you a 3 square head-start if the archers do not the fliers as they cross into the hex. As the previous scenario showed, however, if they delay their action, they can fire as soon as the fliers cross, and could potentially cause the ram to be dropped at the hex border, ruining this maneuver.

Additional notes:
For fliers, changing elevation costs 2 squares of movement to increase elevation, and 1 to lower it.

Finally, Gumps look like they are large enough that they could single-handedly carry one of the rams, and may even be able to move without penalty, so dropping it within their reach could be bad if, say, they were to grab it, run to the wall, and throw it on the roof...

Swodaems wrote:How exactly did you come up with the speed mods of 8->5 and 12->8 while ram carrying? Was it as simple a conversion as takeing 2/3s of the unit's move and rounding down or to nearest whole?

Yes, carrying a ram reduces movement to 2/3rds.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 1:27 pm

*phew*

All that changes nothing. That is, nothing in the plan needs changed because of that new info. So then y'all, do we send the inf siege clump in now?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Exate » Wed May 23, 2012 2:14 pm

MarbitChow wrote:New Cover Defense Bonus Definition: ...you receive a +4 Cover Defense bonus against any Strike or Fire action if the attacker is at the same or lower elevation as you.
Just so we're clear, this means that no one on the ground ever gets a Cover bonus against attackers on a wall or tower or who fly, and no one on a wall ever gets a Cover bonus against attackers on a tower or who fly. Correct?

BLANDCorporatio wrote:So then y'all, do we send the inf siege clump in now?
Apparently our orders need to be posted in a highly specific format for the GM to accept them, which I don't have time to write up at the moment. If you (or someone else) put(s) it together I'll review and give approval, though.

This basic plan has my support:
1. Send in the ram teams, guards, bodyguards, and brickabats for cover, along with Rolf and Yuri ("Group A"). They move forward at ram-carrying speed.
2a. IF Group A draws archer fire, send in our fliers, along with Tod, William, Cupid, skeleton archers, and a brickabat for cover ("Group B"). They use Tod's leadership bonus, and incapacitate the Healmancer+as many archers as possible.
3a. Once the Healmancer is incapacitated, attempt diplomatic gambit with the Commander, leveraging our possession of another Healmancer and apparent emotional ties to the fallen Healmancer to urge surrender.
4a-i. IF diplomatic gambit pays off, do something (?) to follow up on it. Possibly this involves Triage moving into the hex and advancing along with the ram, buying our infantry safety with his promise of healing for the fallen Healmancer even if the surrender deal later falls through? I don't think we've planned for this case.
4a-ii. ELSE Bill joins Group B and possibly raises units on the wall, depending on how many are dead up there.
5a-ii. Newly raised uncroaked attempt to croak as many archers as possible atop the wall.
6a. End round with only T. Coil (and possibly Triage) still outside the hex.
2b. ELSE end round with Group B still outside the hex.

In case it wasn't apparent, plans marked with "a" are a separate IF case from those marked with "b", those marked with "i" are a separate IF case from those marked with "ii", etc. There's probably a more rigorous format for writing up the if cases but I haven't put much thought into it and this should be functional.

I really wish we could bring the Shockamancer into the hex and have him help out. Perhaps next round we'll have enough archers croaked that he'll be able to take action. Particularly when it comes to hurting the Gumps, he could be a lifesaver.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 2:27 pm

Exate wrote:I really wish we could bring the Shockamancer into the hex and have him help out. Perhaps next round we'll have enough archers croaked that he'll be able to take action. Particularly when it comes to hurting the Gumps, he could be a lifesaver.


Indeed. We'll need think again on start of turn 2, pending whatever happens first.

So ok, orders.

{Char Name: Dark Spearmen} each of you move behind and bodyguard a ram carrier; all ram carriers should have one bodyguard. You will follow the ram carriers around in this formation.

{Char Name: Dark Warriors}: guard the ram carriers. Each ram carrier should have at least one guard.

{Char Name: Rolf and Yuri}: go behind the rams, one of you behind each ram. Stay in formation.

{Char Name: Bat Swarms 1 and 2}: go behind the rams and protect the trailing ram carriers, as well as the characters Rolf and Yuri.

{Char Name: ram carriers, Dark Warriors, Dark Spearmen, Rolf, Yuri, Bats}: form group "Inf Siege Clump".

{Char Name: Inf Siege Clump} enter battle space at Q1 and T1. Move towards the gate keeping the guarding/bodyguarding arrangements, and when reaching, destroy the gate and then the nearby walls. Strike at melee opposition on the way if targets of opportunity become adjacent.

{Char Name: anyone else} do not enter until Archers have fired. If Archers do not fire, remain behind hex boundary and end turn.

Ok, if Archers do fire, we'll post adequate orders for that situation but let's get these out of the way first.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 23, 2012 2:48 pm

Exate wrote:Just so we're clear, this means that no one on the ground ever gets a Cover bonus against attackers on a wall or tower or who fly, and no one on a wall ever gets a Cover bonus against attackers on a tower or who fly. Correct?

Correct.

Exate wrote:Apparently our orders need to be posted in a highly specific format for the GM to accept them

They don't need to be in a specific format, but it would help considerably if you would at least list your character name and the final version of the action you're taking this turn, so I don't have to pour back through 7? pages of posts and glean someone's intentions.

Each character has final say as to what their character does, so that if they act contrary to, for example, BLAND's battle plan, their own orders trump everything else. Having each player specify their orders, even if it's just 'Follow BLAND's marching orders', will make my job easier, since unlike table-top games, I can't ask for final clarifications while I'm resolving the round.

In order to grant orders to all minions on your side, I'd like specific battle instructions for the minions - at least what square they move to, and what formation they are trying to maintain for the ground troops, and, if they go in, target square and targeting orders for the fliers. If more than one person posts a battle plan, Swodaems (as highest ranking officer) gets final say as to which plan executes.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 23, 2012 2:53 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:{Char Name: Dark Spearmen} each of you move behind and bodyguard a ram carrier; all ram carriers should have one bodyguard. You will follow the ram carriers around in this formation.
{Char Name: Dark Warriors}: guard the ram carriers. Each ram carrier should have at least one guard.
{Char Name: Rolf and Yuri}: go behind the rams, one of you behind each ram. Stay in formation.
{Char Name: Bat Swarms 1 and 2}: go behind the rams and protect the trailing ram carriers, as well as the characters Rolf and Yuri.

DS : Spearman; DW : Warrior; RM : Ram Carrier; BS : Brickabat Swarm; YR : Yuri Or Rolf:
Code: Select all
DW .. .. DW
DS RM RM DS
DS RM RM DS
DW BS YR DW
Is this correct?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 2:57 pm

There's a lot of minions around, and it will be tedious for us, AND tedious for you, to have each of them ordered individually to a square.

So here's the rub. There's Inf Siege Clump, a mass group of units. It has two rams (be patient). One ram goes from Q1, on that column, as far as it can go (Q5?). The other ram's at T1, and goes as far as it will go (T5?).

Each ram is carried by its four Beefy Ultra Roidy Warriors. Each BURW is bodyguarded by a spearman standing, if it doesn't interfere with bodyguarding, right behind the BURW (bit weird but hey). Each BURW is further guarded by a Dark Warrior. Spearman and Warrior follow the BURW they [body]guard.

Right behind one ram, say, Q1, there's Rolf. And right behind the other, there's Yuri. And near each of these characters there's a Bat Swarm, using its ability to protect them and other units like BURWs nearby.

EDIT: Yeah, if Spearmen can't fit behind BURWs, that will do.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby HerbieRai » Wed May 23, 2012 3:06 pm

I know the current plan is to see if the archers fire, and if they do then the fliers come in, otherwise they dont.

If the archers DONT fire, Do you think its a safe bet to have the ground archers go in and mighty blow one of the gumps? I doubt the enemy are waiting for our ground archers, since they wont do much damage to the people on the walls.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 3:10 pm

We could send skeletons in, since they're harder for arrows to damage anyway, yep. We'll see what to do after our Inf Clump gets to where it's headed, because my guess is not all Archers, but some Archers, will fire. So we'll have some fresh situation to mull over.

But at least it will be a fresh situation.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Wed May 23, 2012 3:17 pm

Order Formalism here:

Orders for Triage, Round 1:
Do NOT enter battle unless ordered by BLAND due to unforeseen circumstances.

In terms of moving Triage into the area if the diplomatic gambit succeeds, I'd also like to make a condition that they open the gates immediately (so we can see what's inside and plan accordingly).
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Wed May 23, 2012 3:26 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:There's a lot of minions around, and it will be tedious for us, AND tedious for you, to have each of them ordered individually to a square.

I'm not looking for individual actions (other than from players, if any). Give me formations and targets, and I'll do my best to follow that. And hey, if I screw it up, chalk it off to battlefield confusion. :D

I'd like to confirm what Bill's skeletons are before the battle, but as of right now I'm assuming skeletal Archers w/ Mighty Blow.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Exate » Wed May 23, 2012 3:59 pm

There are interesting possibilities for archer formations which make mass use of the Support and/or Coordinate abilities to focus immense amounts of damage into single hits. Individually they would have difficulty dealing with a unit that has, say, Defense 20, but an eight-archer formation surrounding a single central archer could get +27 to Combat per Modified Attack that they're able to stack. Admittedly this requires a great deal of attention from a substantial number of units, but it could be an effective way to rapidly take out high-powered units such as Gumps in the future, even if those units are led/dancing/using tanking attack styles.

That is not to say that we should do that right now; I haven't run the numbers but I'm pretty sure Mighty Blow is the way to go with our target selection. Though perhaps later... amping up our Shockamancer could be quite nice.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby ETheBoyce » Wed May 23, 2012 4:10 pm

Yessssss, give me all your Combats!
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