Darkness Rising

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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:05 am

0beron wrote:Yeah, I was saying "my" from the golems perspective. And yes, from a flavor perspective, it makes sense that tiny golems have less Move....but from a balance perspective it doesn't.


Ah I understand...not giving views on whether flavour or balance is correct but a Lesser undead's move is, I believe, 5.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:09 am

Really? I'm not seeing that, everything I read has them having the same stats as in life. And in either event, the lowest level of undead are half the juice cost of my lowest level golems.

Edit: Plus, what says a unit even has to be small in order for it to be agile? I know thats how Marbit described them, but what's to say they can't just be agile because they're well-coordinated, or skinny, or ect...
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:15 am

I could be wrong...maybe they've just not been able to travel more than 5 because of our brilliant tactical positioning but you'd have to check with Marbit or Bill . They'd know more.

{edit} Anyway if I'm wrong it adds to your argument that a lesser cost spell gives greater stats
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Swodaems » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:33 am

MarbitChow wrote:Updated heavy based on Exate's suggestion. Heavy units now gain additional Combat Stats upon purchasing, and for each level they achieve (as well as any retroactive stats they're entitled to based on level).
To clarify, a unit that takes heavy at level 5 will receive 19 combat points, not 7?

How is NPC/Mount leveling handled now that XP is being split evenly? Will they level at all?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:37 am

Swodaems wrote:To clarify, a unit that takes heavy at level 5 will receive 19 combat points, not 7?


Don't Heavies receive an extra +3CS for each level AFTER they purchase Heavy?
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:41 am

I don't think so, the way I read it was just a variable of their level. It doesn't matter when they actually take it. (although from a flavor perspective, it would make sense that it "should" be taken at level 1, since it doesn't seem "logical" that a unit suddenly BECOMES heavy haha)
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:43 am

0beron wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Added Agility to Special Abilities section, to allow a dollamancer to make tiny golems that can run past enemies (although with only 6 squares of move per round).

Is this really even useful...? Is there a bonus for attacking while flanking? Cus as I see it, I'd be spending 1 AP AND nerfing my move...to gain a very weak ability.

Please note that, unlike Uncroaked, constructs are permanent until destroyed, so given time, a tiny swarm could be created. Also note that vulnerable, higher-value targets are usually behind lines that Agile units are designed to penetrate.
Finally, please note that not all rules are designed to be IN FAVOR of the players. Attempting to protect 4 casters with 3 melee units might not be easy under the new rules.
That said, I suspect that I'm going to tweak the construct-only abilities a bit more in the future. Agility, for example, will probably be reduced to 0.5, and I'm considering adding abilities that allow golems to be defined as taking up 2x2 or 3x3 squares.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Swodaems wrote:To clarify, a unit that takes heavy at level 5 will receive 19 combat points, not 7?

Don't Heavies receive an extra +3CS for each level AFTER they purchase Heavy?

The bonus from Heavy is retroactive. They get 7 bonus combat stats at 1st level, and an additional 3 at each level thereafter, so if they took heavy at level 5, they would immediately gain 19 Combat Stats for that 3 AP.

0beron wrote:I don't think so, the way I read it was just a variable of their level. It doesn't matter when they actually take it. (although from a flavor perspective, it would make sense that it "should" be taken at level 1, since it doesn't seem "logical" that a unit suddenly BECOMES heavy haha)

Please see "It's Raining Men" for an example of units suddenly becoming Heavy. :D
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:52 am

MarbitChow wrote: [Comments on the usefulness of Agility]
Okay that helps clarify it for me. Just as a note on flavor, if I do give this to my Scarecrows, I still want them to be normal-sized, just lanky and flexible enough to dodge past adjacent enemy units. Though I'll only take it if it goes down to 0.5 AP, since as you point out, it's hard to defend so many ranged PCs with so few Melee units, so I am designing my golems specifically to help in that department. (Since I was going to be ranged either way, I decided a Dollamancer would be more useful to the group since it can strengthen our front line)

MarbitChow wrote:Please see "It's Raining Men" for an example of units suddenly becoming Heavy. :D
LOL yes very true, I had forgotten about that LOL.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:56 am

Regarding Mounts: just a quick note. Non-speaking Units (most mounts, constructs, uncroaked, etc.) cannot gain experience. As a result, they also cannot be leveled. However, having a Dollamancer who can create custom Mount constructs may give you a lot of flexibility, and you may be able to capture cities that spawn different unit types in the future.

Regarding XP: All surviving, speaking units on a side divide XP evenly at the end of the combat.
I'll leave it up to you as players whether you prefer to have few survivors on your side and lots of personal XP vs. many survivors and lots of help in future scenarios. :D
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:57 am

MarbitChow wrote:Regarding Mounts: just a quick note. Non-speaking Units (most mounts, constructs, uncroaked, etc.) cannot gain experience. As a result, they also cannot be leveled.


Then ... why do heavies get two levelups for the price of one?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:59 am

0beron wrote:it's hard to defend so many ranged PCs with so few Melee units, so I am designing my golems specifically to help in that department.

Note that Agility is primarily an offensive ability. Beefy (to increase hits) might be better suited.

Also note that you are not limited to one design type. You can make large, beefy scarecrows and tiny, agile constructs w/ Mighty Blow, and both would be Lesser Golems.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Exate » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:00 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Regarding Mounts: just a quick note. Non-speaking Units (most mounts, constructs, uncroaked, etc.) cannot gain experience. As a result, they also cannot be leveled.
Then ... why do heavies get two levelups for the price of one?
Even a high-level unit with doubled leveling bonuses is just never going to measure up in power to the stronger mounts. It would take a hell of a lot of levels for a heavy to be an even match against an equally leveled unit mounted on something like a dwagon.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:00 am

Exate wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Regarding Mounts: just a quick note. Non-speaking Units (most mounts, constructs, uncroaked, etc.) cannot gain experience. As a result, they also cannot be leveled.
Then ... why do heavies get two levelups for the price of one?
Even a high-level unit with doubled leveling bonuses is just never going to measure up in power to the stronger mounts. It would take a hell of a lot of levels for a heavy to be an even match against an equally leveled unit mounted on something like a dwagon.


Can we pop Dwagons?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:01 am

MarbitChow wrote:Regarding XP: All surviving, speaking units on a side divide XP evenly at the end of the combat.

Do Constructs and Uncroaked speak...? I guess we have some precedence for uncroaked "saying things" but I wouldn't call it "speaking coherently" haha.

MarbitChow wrote:Also note that you are not limited to one design type. You can make large, beefy scarecrows and tiny, agile constructs w/ Mighty Blow, and both would be Lesser Golems.

Oh really!? Well that's fantastic news, I no longer have any gripes :) In that case I'll have some kind of tough Scarecrow for defense, and Animated Jack-o-Lanterns for agility.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:06 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Regarding Mounts: just a quick note. Non-speaking Units (most mounts, constructs, uncroaked, etc.) cannot gain experience. As a result, they also cannot be leveled.

Then ... why do heavies get two levelups for the price of one?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Players who can ride mounts are not limited to a single mount. They can switch mounts in combat (if they have spares), so a unit using a mount as primary protection could replace it once it dies.

But that reminds me... I need to expand the Uncroak ability so it specifies that mounts can also be uncroaked.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Can we pop Dwagons?
Not currently.

0beron wrote:Do Constructs and Uncroaked speak...?
Not on their own. (If the players would like, they may be able to direct their uncroaked/ constructs to speak on command, however.) They cannot gain experience.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:09 am

I'm gonna guess no, at least for now anyway. Maybe if we run into Stanley, heh heh heh.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:09 am

MarbitChow wrote:
0beron wrote:Do Constructs and Uncroaked speak...?
Not on their own. (If the players would like, they may be able to direct their uncroaked/ constructs to speak on command, however.) They cannot gain experience.

Okay good that's what I was hoping for. So having both a Croak- and Doll-amancer to buff up our front line is an ideal solution to our lack of melees. We stay a strong party, and we ensure that PCs get a big chunk of XP (in the process ensuring our Casters are able to make better units faster, and the cycle continues) :D
Last edited by 0beron on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:10 am

MarbitChow wrote:
why do heavies get two levelups for the price of one?

I'm not sure I understand the question.


Allow me to explain. "Heavy" forfeits a unit's ability to ride a mount. As such, I expect the +6CS to be a compensation for that. If the unit cannot operate paired with a mount, then it must have stronger level ups to compensate.

However, mounts DON'T level up. This only limits what a rider-mount pair can do. Take Will as an example. He's pursuing max Combat, and since the mount doesn't add to that, a levelling mount can be beefed up in Defense as compensation. Already I only had one choice that made sense, but now I have none. The mount is what it is and cannot be improved further.

Given that, it doesn't make much sense to hold hope for good mounts, since I'm pretty sure the good, amazing mounts that would put a Heavy to shame are also NOT easy to come by.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:20 am

In any case, the Heavy/Mount situation being what it is, my impression is that the Mongol (mounted) Archer build is not the best option, after all.

Much better to invest in Heavy and allocate the wealth of CS as desired, rather than depending on a mount that either will not contribute to the Combat score, OR have such a good combat score so as to replace Will's attack, thus making that part of the build useless.

So I'll think of tweaking Will's build once more.

EDIT: Keep Well Armed/Well protected for the first purchases. The remaining 3AP resulting from level ups purchase Heavy.

So I have +9CS from 3level ups, +7CS from purchasing Heavy, +9CS from retroactively applying it. Spend 3CS on Defense, spend all the others on Combat, yielding

32Combat/9Defense/22Hits/8{8} move.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:24 am

MarbitChow wrote:
Swodaems wrote:What exactly can I learn about the new units from the crown?

Right now, all you can tell from the crown is an impression of a winged horse. No stat information is available (nor will it be before the rules are finalized and you're able to pop the first one). The dollamancy mount should provide a rough approximation, however, that you can use for comparison purposes, and it appears likely that your side will have a dollmancer.).


I'm not sure about good mounts but it appears we'll have decent FLYING mounts at least. If we all have flying by that route it makes ground based melee almost obsolete... I'm now unsure about any benefits of Heavy except using Cupids route.
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