Darkness Rising

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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 2:52 pm

Swodaems wrote:In this situation the fliers are giving up their elevation defense advantage to protect units that the enemy has an elevation adantage against. How would that effect the fliers' ability to do damage to units on the wall? Would they still be treated as if they're attacking from the same elevation or higher? Or would they now be attacking enemies with a +4 defense bonus?

In order to grant cover bonus, the fliers would need to be in front of the targets they're protecting at at the same level as the targets who are firing. The elves' would not get an elevation defense bonus, but neither would the fliers. Flier damage is thus unchanged, but their life expectancy may drop significantly.

Swodaems wrote:(MarbitChow, you said that that they lose their FEB when they make the attack with the ram, not when they are transporting it. Are they actually flying that thing in?

Yes, they would be flying it in, and if they do so at max elevation, they would retain their FEB.

Swodaems wrote:And can they still Fire while carrying it?

No. Wielding or transporting the ram requires both hands, leaving none free to work a bow and arrow.

Swodaems wrote:Also what exactly is the shape of a ram being carried by 4 units. (4 units all on 1 square, 2x2, 3x2, 3x3,etc.))

2x2.

Swodaems wrote:Can we abuse the Caster/Commander love relationship implied in the mission briefing?

Yes, the love relationship can be abused. The Healer and Commander might behave irrationally regarding each other.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 2:55 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:Can our archers still attack while they are being held?

I'm going to say that neither the archers nor the fliers will be able to attack while being held like that. The flier's hands are full, and the act of being carried aloft is too jarring to be able to shoot properly.

The fliers, however, could attempt to use any unit that they are carrying as an improvised battering ram, if you'd like.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 22, 2012 2:56 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:Upon further review, this doesn't really work. Only William Showend Tell is a non-flying non-caster Archer


Indeed. So what's the problem? Lemme at them!

OOC: not on first turn. Will Showend Tell might one-shot an Archer, and as such may be a choicy target. Let's reduce archers in first turn, and we'll get to insert Will Showend Tell into battle later./OOC

Yes, they would be flying it in, and if they do so at max elevation, they would retain their FEB


OOC: what the fu-? Four fliers can fly in, at increased speed, something 4 Burly Extra Roidy warriors need to lug around slowly? Shennannigans./OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:57 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
WaterMonkey314 wrote:Can our archers still attack while they are being held?

I'm going to say that neither the archers nor the fliers will be able to attack while being held like that. The flier's hands are full, and the act of being carried aloft is too jarring to be able to shoot properly.

The fliers, however, could attempt to use any unit that they are carrying as an improvised battering ram, if you'd like.


How about fliers carrying melee units to the wall? Could they thus allow melee units to close in with an elevation bonus?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 22, 2012 3:00 pm

OOC:

Okay, fine. Let's think about the Flier carrying scenario again, just to please everyone. So if the Fliers carry the rams, they can't shoot. And if they carry it aloft, presumably they cannot be bodyguarded/guarded by our other units. Which makes their defense against Archers to be 8. So whichever Fliers don't have bats (and there'll be five of them) will die on turn 1, maybe even without having got to take one step towards the wall.

And I seriously find the idea of three fliers lugging a ram around in the sky to be weird./OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 22, 2012 3:01 pm

OOC:

WaterMonkey314 wrote:How about fliers carrying melee units to the wall? Could they thus allow melee units to close in with an elevation bonus?


Could y'all please stop throwing red herrings? Or if you do, think about them, and prove that you've thought about them. A flier carrying infantry will not shoot. That infantry cannot guard the rams. Why would this be useful?/OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 22, 2012 3:04 pm

OOC:

Incidentally, this

MarbitChow wrote:
Swodaems wrote:Can we abuse the Caster/Commander love relationship implied in the mission briefing?

Yes, the love relationship can be abused. The Healer and Commander might behave irrationally regarding each other.


is not a red herring. It's the one, excellent, out of the box solution for this scenario. It's almost convincing me we should target the healer first./OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 3:15 pm

WaterMonkey314 wrote:How about fliers carrying melee units to the wall? Could they thus allow melee units to close in with an elevation bonus?

Fliers could carry melee towards the wall. Doing so would absolutely guarantee that archers target these units first, because of the potential two-for-one kill from a single shot: Arrow to drop the Flier, Flier drops the melee, and Gravity gets its hitsies...
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 3:27 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OOC: what the fu-? Four fliers can fly in, at increased speed, something 4 Burly Extra Roidy warriors need to lug around slowly? Shennannigans./OOC

It's like a coffin. It's not just the weight, it's the awkwardness of wielding it. Fliers move faster than regular units, and while they wouldn't be able to move the ram as fast as they can fly, they'd still be able to move it 7 squares to a ground unit's 5. Heavy units don't move faster than regular units, because while they may be roidy, they're also wearing a lot more armor.

(But mostly I was hoping you would try to fly the ram in; after the 1st or 2nd flier was killed, the weight of the ram would drag the remaining fliers down a level, and the archers would even more effectively pick them off.)
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby HerbieRai » Tue May 22, 2012 3:33 pm

OOC:
We may be able to cheese things a bit next turn by having the infantry move the rams forward then having the fliers pick them up and move in to attack the walls. I don't see this as very usefull, since the melee units are the ones needing the walls to be broken anyway.

This love relationship has changed my mind as well. I vote Healomancer as target number 1.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Swodaems » Tue May 22, 2012 3:52 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OOC:

Okay, fine. Let's think about the Flier carrying scenario again, just to please everyone. So if the Fliers carry the rams, they can't shoot. And if they carry it aloft, presumably they cannot be bodyguarded/guarded by our other units. Which makes their defense against Archers to be 8. So whichever Fliers don't have bats (and there'll be five of them) will die on turn 1, maybe even without having got to take one step towards the wall.

And I seriously find the idea of three fliers lugging a ram around in the sky to be weird./OOC


I can change that to 10 for 7 of them and the 2x2 formation required for carrying may give the the back row a cover bonus. (We don't know how cover works for archers firing from underneath yet.) I was thinking a 4 wide and 2 deep formation with 2 of the bat swarms screening in front of the two foreward fliers in the center of the two rams and the other bat swarm on one of the outer edges. The 3 members of the back row may get 18 max def in this scenario if the bats contribute to the cover bonus.

We can send myself, the heavies and the ground troops in ahead of the fliers on the first round to draw the archer's fire, getting them 8 squares in. Next round, the archers will have an unavoidable speed advantage over the fliers, so they will take fire and we'll lose the units not screened by bats and drop a ram into the heavies waiting below, but we should have enough fliers left to carry the other ram to 16 squares in, where they will drop it for the advancing ground troops who are now within 5 move of the gate/wall.

MarbitChow wrote:
Swodaems wrote:Questions: Does my leadership bonus apply to all our troops or just to our characters? (Same for the enemy leader.)

Leadership applies to a single stack, which is you plus 7 other units of your choosing. The same applies to the enemy leader. At present, it is safe to assume that he's stacked with the healer, the treants, plus 4 archers. You can freely restack once per turn, and the leadership bonus applies immediately at the start of the turn, just like the Attack Modifiers.

If I can freely restack once, can I unfreely do it twice? Maybe if I sacrificed an action?
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue May 22, 2012 4:03 pm

OOC:
Swodaems wrote:I can change that to 10 for 7 of them and the 2x2 formation required for carrying may give the the back row a cover bonus. (We don't know how cover works for archers firing from underneath yet.) I was thinking a 4 wide and 2 deep formation with 2 of the bat swarms screening in front of the two foreward fliers in the center of the two rams and the other bat swarm on one of the outer edges. The 3 members of the back row may get 18 max def in this scenario if the bats contribute to the cover bonus.


With 10 def for our fliers, and Archers doing Mighty Blow (and why wouldn't they), the archers would do 2-12 damage. Average 7. Almost one shot, one kill. And the fliers won't shoot. Further, the Fliers would be the only worthy targets for archer fire as they'd combine both aspects that are dangerous to the city- attacking the walls, potentially attacking the archers. By killing them, archers delay the rams and remove an immediate threat. And the archers might get to fire before the fliers advance even a step. I'm not sure on this last point, but even without it, this is a spectacularly bad idea.

Do NOT do this.
/OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 4:47 pm

Swodaems wrote:If I can freely restack once, can I unfreely do it twice? Maybe if I sacrificed an action?

Leadership behaves like the Attack Modifiers. It is declared prior to the turn, and lasts from the start of the turn through the end. You can change who it applies to between turns, at no cost.
I will consider "Restack" as an action for future scenarios, but the rules are set for this one. I'm currently leaning heavily against it, however, due to the potential for abuse of an already exceptional ability.
Example: two sets of 7 archers; you stack with the 1st group, let them release a volley, and you order the 2nd set to fire after you restack, granting a leadership bonus to 14 units this turn (which, by the way, is the exact scenario you'd run up against this round if I allowed it...)
If you feel strongly about this, feel free to lobby for it again once this scenario is complete, at which point I'll make a final judgment.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 5:14 pm

You appear to be reaching a consensus regarding your first (and possibly second?) move. In order to avoid confusion on my part, when you are ready to declare your actions, please post them explicitly using the following format:

Character Name : Move To XX; Perform YY
or
Character Name : Remain Behind Hex Boundary
or
Character Name :
IF (condition) : Move To XX; Perform YY
IF (2nd condition) : Move To ZZ; Perform YY


or similar simple and explicit descriptions.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue May 22, 2012 5:46 pm

OOC Are we time constrained ? Do we actually lose anything if on the first turn no-one moves into the hex just to see their reaction ? It gives us an extra turn to decide on what could be a crucial first move..

The Bat Swarms have 12 move and from my reading of the are basically parry X 8. We should use all 3 first move, I seriously doubt the archers will damage all 3 ( they can damage all 3 but that would not be concentrating their fire) Turn 2 we can send an undamaged (or the least damaged if the archers elect to spread their shots) bat swarm to protect the shockamancer who will still be within their 12 movement range / OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby MarbitChow » Tue May 22, 2012 5:52 pm

I mentioned earlier that I was going to give 48 hours for the 1st turn, so you're not under any time constraints at this point; you've still got over a full day left. However, if you come to a consensus and everyone has their moves in before 8pm CST, I'll run the first move tonight instead of tomorrow.
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Tue May 22, 2012 5:58 pm

MarbitChow wrote:I mentioned earlier that I was going to give 48 hours for the 1st turn, so you're not under any time constraints at this point; you've still got over a full day left. However, if you come to a consensus and everyone has their moves in before 8pm CST, I'll run the first move tonight instead of tomorrow.


OOC Sorry Marbit...missed that one. Was still under the impression we had only a 22 hour window. Thanks /OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby The Colonel » Tue May 22, 2012 7:13 pm

No the two dead bodies we have already
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed May 23, 2012 5:12 am

The Colonel wrote:No the two dead bodies we have already



OOC I think we're all agreed here that Bill needs to create 2 x 3 AP skeleton archers and send them on movement of 8 into the combat hex. The only question remaining is since creation of an archer costs 2 AP what does he spend the remaining AP for each on. As far as I can see the only options are Mighty Blow or Beefy ( if beefy makes any sense for a skeleton) since if arrows do lesser damage to a skelton the +8 hits is worth more than +3 for combat as they might see the skeleton survive more than 1 arrow hit.
The real question is ... "Is tying up 4 of their archers for a turn worth 6 extra damage ?" The answer is yes only if the skeletons are targeted but no if they do not become targets.

P.S. This will give us 12 archers ( 2 Skel, Will, Cupid & 8 fliers). I think that makes the healer a prime target for incapacitation as we can take her out of the equation ( which may drop the wards for next turn) and 2 or if we're lucky with damage and have the archers conditions set right even 3 elf archers /OOC
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Re: Darkness Rising

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed May 23, 2012 6:01 am

OOC: huh, good question on the Bone Archers.

I lean towards Mighty Blow, since they already should take half damage from arrows and they're low level targets anyway. In part, because they cannot really do all that much to the Archers or the walls. But any extra damage is good.

OTOH, beefy skeletons will probably not be attacked by the Archers. Hard to kill, and less of a threat because they do not have that high a combat rating as they might have otherwise. So I'm neutral on this. Whatever you guys think works, works for me.

Another issue is sending Will in the hex. Will cannot attack the healer (unless she's on the walls, for some reason) but might chip at an archer. Before we send Will in though, let's send in the infantry/siege clump and see what the Archers do. Same turn, we'll send the flier and Leader stack, bone archers and maybe Will as well.
/OOC
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