Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Your new games, homebrews, mods and ideas. Forum games go here.

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:06 pm

That's what I mean by the basic pew-pew. But what I meant was those caster types I listed can't do anything to help their stack croak an enemy. They play roles in the strategy, and supporting the side, but in the combat itself they're not helping in a way that's unique to their discipline.
Maybe that means Titans need to be a little more creative in divvying up XP and that's the solution. Like Sir Shadow said, reducing the factor of the exponential increase could help too, because I think that the current scale might even put a dent in your "fast-to-level-fast-to-fall" Warlords too as time goes by. That I can't comment on though because I don't know how the combat XP is working behind the scenes (I've come up with a totally different method in my game that streamlines things), and we haven't been playing long enough to see the mechanic play itself out in-game.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:11 pm

I found my units would achieve level 3 relatively quickly. Daphnes got there in a single hit by slaying a purple dwagon on his own, House saved me on a couple occasions so that helped him, and I found a good number of relatively weak enemies one turn for my knights to share amongst themselves. Though granted, since then not a single level has been gained despite having slain anoher dwagon and a small stack of panthews.
With the dawning of each new day, my evil machinations inch me closer to world domination. And also breakfast.
User avatar
Lord of Monies
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:20 pm

If we make a few assumptions based on Artemis' concrete example of out of combat leveling, we can figure a few things out.

Assumption 1: casters using their full juice in a turn in support is akin to warlords training (I think that's a worst case for caster leveling)
Assumption 2: erfworld follows the traditional twice the xp to level paradigm (ie double your current xp to level) (this might be a stretch)

It took Artemis 640 turn from 6 to 7. So...
320 to 6
160 to 5
80 to 4
40 to 3
20 to 2

I'm not sure how that compares to the current rules training schedule, but it seems reasonable
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:06 pm

0beron wrote:Plus, there are a few caster types that I can't imagine having ANY battle skill, besides the basic pew-pew. Find, Math, Sign, Hat Magic, Money, and maybe even Change but we don't know enough to say. (Yes I know Cubbins popped a cap, but that was a stylized/glorified pew-pew that was being amplified by Tower bonuses.)
What are those classes supposed to do? Because they can't even benefit units they are stacked with.

Findamancers could allow their stack to locate the weak points on an enemy unit, as well as negate foolamancy. They might also be able to increase an army's movement by finding the easiest path. And they could allow their stack to find openings in the enemy formations, allowing them to go for priority targets (archer stacks?) instead of getting blocked by defensive troops.

Signmancers can change their unit's signamancy. Making them stronger, faster, tougher, etc. They could also disguise their units to confuse enemies, making them hesitant to attack what they might think are allies. They could make one of their units super scary, leading to huge penalties to try attacking that unit or their stack.


Hat Magicians can summon all manner of nasty things from their hats. Rains of arrows, death rabbits, rations for their troops. They can also make magic hats that give a verity of potential bonuses.

Moneymancers can negate the upkeep of units they are with. They can infuse them with schmuckers to 'upgrade' them in a verity of ways (promoting a unit is natural moneymancy, after all). They can make it rain schmuckers to distract troops, or toss explosive gems at them.

Changeamancers can change their units or enemy units stats. 'nuff said :P

Mathamancers may give something like a leadership bonus by finding the best matchups (remember Duncan's magic item is math/date magic). They may use math to subtract hits from an enemy and add it to an ally (or any stat for that matter).

So yeah, they all have combat applications, they just require a modicum of creativity in their application.

And also, I have to disagree with the whole 'things move fast in Erfworld' If anything, we've seen the opposite. I mean it took what, 60ish turns for GK to go for Unaroyal when they had a highly mobile insta-gib force that should have been taking a city every couple of turns.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:52 pm

Some good ideas, a few I have thought of but discarded them for the reasons pointed out below.
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Findamancers could...negate foolamancy. I'd put this under Lookamancy

Signmancers can change their unit's signamancy. Hu dur, silly me, I forgot Slately's Warpaint. However, I'd argue that this means they don't have to be in the combat because the effect can be done in advance, so how would we handle that?

Hat Magicians can...make magic hats that give a verity of potential bonuses. See Signamancer issue above

Moneymancers can negate the upkeep of units they are with. They can infuse them with schmuckers to 'upgrade' them in a verity of ways (promoting a unit is natural moneymancy, after all). As with Hat & Sign, would be done at the start of turn, so they don't need to be in the stack.

Changeamancers can change their units or enemy units stats. Logically this is likely, but until we see in-comic how it actually works I'm leery to actually apply it. It's possible that like the above, it could be done in advance.

Mathamancers may give something like a leadership bonus by finding the best matchups (remember Duncan's magic item is math/date magic). No Mathamancy was involved, it was Date & Hat
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Yeah, mathmancy is perhaps the only mancy that seems to have no major combat application, but fantastic warlord support. Not the same however sadly.
With the dawning of each new day, my evil machinations inch me closer to world domination. And also breakfast.
User avatar
Lord of Monies
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:22 pm

God why does everyone whine about casters

JUST USE THEM AND THEY GET STRONGER OKAY

Mathamancers don't NEED to go into combat, neither do Thinkamancers and most of the other things you mentioned, but theoretically they could

Grow some lateral thinking :I
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:22 pm

Yeah, lookamancy would be a better fit for canceling out foolamancy, but it might depend on the foolamancy. For example, if it is hiding the unit in question, the findamancer could find the unit (if she knew to look in the first place). If the foolamancer is making fake units though, that might be trickier to handle. So perhaps situational use against foolamancers.

Signamancer's bonus may have a time limit on it. Maybe the warpaint only lasts a turn or two. Or maybe it wears away with travel, or is stronger with the signamancer in the hex (or used on herself!)

Hat Magicians might be able to make temporary hats that vanish in a turn or so much more cheaply than a fully fledged magic item.

Maybe moneymancers need to be with the stack for the whole turn to get the benefit, or being so increases the benefit (no upkeep vs 50% off)

Changamancy like the others might be better/easier when done during combat as opposed to giving the boost ahead of time.

Darn, was just going off memory for that, so yeah.

So yeah, not all my examples were perfect, and given the nature of Erfworld, I figure any effect that you could give out in advance, you could give out mid combat more cheaply, thus promoting putting a caster at risk as both a means to level her faster, and to make her more effective. Clay might have been a much more effective force for Goodminton if he were on the front lines boosting people instead of just boosting them as they headed out. Anyway, main point is that there are ways to 'weaponize' any caster, you just have to be creative.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:24 pm

Kaed wrote:God why does everyone whine about casters

JUST USE THEM AND THEY GET STRONGER OKAY

Mathamancers don't NEED to go into combat, neither do Thinkamancers and most of the other things you mentioned, but theoretically they could

Grow some lateral thinking :I

The complaint stems from the fact that a caster who is useful in combat will level significantly faster than one that doesn't, and there really isn't alot you can do about it. That makes it exceedingly difficult to have a high level mathamancer, but very easy to have a high level shockamancer.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:27 pm

The balance, though, is that you almost NEED a high level shockamancer in order to sufficiently destroy/suppress a sufficient number of enemy units. A mathmancer doesn't need to be high level to answer an important question that can turn the tide of the side itself.
With the dawning of each new day, my evil machinations inch me closer to world domination. And also breakfast.
User avatar
Lord of Monies
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:39 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:The complaint stems from the fact that a caster who is useful in combat will level significantly faster than one that doesn't, and there really isn't alot you can do about it. That makes it exceedingly difficult to have a high level mathamancer, but very easy to have a high level shockamancer.


Has it ever occurred to you that in the end that doesn't make that much difference?

Caster who by nature see lots of combat naturally benefit from levels to a large degree. High level shockamancers have more zap to distribute. High level croakamancer raise more bodies at more power. Etc.

What exactly are you going to do with a level 10 mathamancer?

Conduct a trillion battlefield calculations every turn? Is there even a point to that?

And Hat Magicians and Dollamancers. Their power comes more from the things they create, which last beyond one turn and are technically outside of purpose of increased juice, which is really all levels gets you in the first place. A level 3-4 one can do pretty much anything a 7+ one could.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:04 pm

That's possible, but who's to say that juice isn't involved in the creation of dolls? It certainly is in the creation of uncroaked, and most likely is in the creation of dirtamancy golems. Thinkamancers have a limit on the number of thinkagrams they can send based on juice, which has been shown to be a big issue for Maggie. Most people can't even figure out what to do with a level 1 mathamancer, much less a level 10, so that's a bit of a stacked example. I'm sure you could find all kinds of uses for the juice of a level 10 dollamancer, dirtamancer, thinkamancer, moneymancer, etc.

I feel like you're making a bad stand by claiming that casters who don't need to be directly involved (or at least a few specific ones) in combat gain no benefit from levels/more juice.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:29 pm

I suppose another argument is that combat casters who level more easily are also more likely to croak, so theres a tradeoff for that xp
GWvsJohn
 
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:05 am

GWvsJohn wrote:I suppose another argument is that combat casters who level more easily are also more likely to croak, so theres a tradeoff for that xp

Very true, but I think the problem stems from not being able to make that choice, as stated about certain casters having no combat spells, thus making them nothing but a liability on the front lines. I think I countered fairly well with combat spells of some kind for all the casters mentioned. But, slow leveling just might be the tradeoff for having a more tactical caster.

There might also be something with certain types of spells giving more xp. Sizemore leveled twice from combat, and then once from building cities, but seemingly hadn't leveled at all from building golems in a while. Maybe since building cities is a fairly limited action that he can't simply dump all his juice into every turn, it gives more xp than other uses?
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:27 am

Or he's simply not making that many golems. To take a guess, he needs materials first in order to turn them into a Golem and those materials come by now and then instead of a constant supply, so most turns he's probably not using any juice at all. Re-designing a city would take a lot more juice in comparison and we know they gained, what, 9 cities? So 9 instances of using most/all of his juice as opposed to scores of turns using little to no juice what-so-ever. Same amount of exp : juice spent ratio, just that was a time he was using more as well as netting kills.
With the dawning of each new day, my evil machinations inch me closer to world domination. And also breakfast.
User avatar
Lord of Monies
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:48 pm

He can make golems out of rock... and the city is on a mountain with an extensive mining network... I don't think he ran out of materials to make golems with. Also crap, which given the size of the garrison (including a number of twolls) is likely in fairly plentiful supply as well.

I suppose it's possible he might need some special kind of rock or something, since he didn't have all that many, but it seems unlikely that there were really turns he couldn't spend his juice. I mean, at absolute worse he could have poured it into the tower, though that may not give xp. Actually, that might have been the problem. He was making some golems, but was mostly burning juice on charging up the tower in anticipation of an attack?
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Kaed » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:13 am

Update for everyone in the game - starting this coming tuesday, I start a new shift with roughly twice the hours as before. This will result in two things:

1) Updates will be very sporadic outside of the weekends, when I'm off. This will last several weeks, at which point

2) My new piles of schmuckers will allow me to finally buy a new laptop, and the updates will become way less sporadic than they are now, as I will be able to computer at night, when I'm not working.
UNLESS someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.
Kaed
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 4:28 am

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:21 am

Kaed wrote:2) My new piles of schmuckers will allow me to finally buy a new laptop, and the updates will become way less sporadic than they are now, as I will be able to computer at night, when I'm not working.

Ooooooh well that's nice! And not just for the selfish reason obviously, it'll be nice for you to have a laptop for non-erfy things too of course :)
Perhaps Exate might consider being a LITTLE less wordy then for the next while...?
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
User avatar
0beron
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
YOTD + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 3191
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm
Location: Morlock Wells

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Lord of Monies » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:41 am

Or perhaps more streamlined instead, so in all those words he gets more done meaning a turn doesn't require as many posts.
With the dawning of each new day, my evil machinations inch me closer to world domination. And also breakfast.
User avatar
Lord of Monies
 
Posts: 445
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:03 pm

Re: Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

Postby Exate » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:02 am

Sorry to hear about the long hours, Kaed. Look after yourself.

As for you two, this cultural discrimination will not be forgotten come the reckoning.
Exate
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
Tool + YOTD + Erfabet + Pins Supporter!
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am

PreviousNext

Return to Your Games

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests