Erfgame 3 (CLOSED) - Rules and Discussion

[0beron]

Ah now I understand. Well considering we haven't really evolved out caster rules to that level, it's not something we need to be concerned about.

[Koliup]

Why not make a line between 'cool item' 'sweet item' and 'magic item'?
For example, lets take Parson's armor, the Staff of Suckage, and Eyebooks/the bracer..

Parson did not 'pop' with armor, and hence got some made. This is fabrication, A/B special style. Parson has a +2 to one stat from the armor. Nothing more.

The Staff of Suckage is a 'sweet item', it has a single, passive effect; making it hard(impossible?) for spells to be cast on you. It's just there. I would equate this with what Dollamancers do already in the rules. Slately's jetpack may also count as one of these.

And lastly, things like the Eyebooks or the bracer. These have nothing similar in the rules. They provide not only a passive effect, but an active one too. The Ibooks provide side-wide instant communications, with added features such as diary keeping and stuff. The bracer provides likely not only a minor bonus to combat, but an ability to spend juice to zap dudes. Message hats also likely are found here. Perhaps also golems?

In example 1 and 2, well, we already have rules for these. But in example 3, such objects would likely have their own juice pool. Probably less than a 1st level caster's, but still. Lets say they have 10 juice(subject to debate, and increase/decrease based on spell costs; think of these like custom spells). That means the bracer could unload 10-15(!) points of damage, if I recall correctly. But how does that work for the books? Answer: it doesn't really. The Eyebooks use the special Thinkamancer rule, only instead of part of their juice, it is all of it for all-turn communications.

I would also like to propose that all dollamancer items equal a Special CostxN to create. Where Special Cost is the points(2 for some) and N is the decided juice cost per point. As for magic item creation? Likely a large number of materials and a large amount of juice from all casters required for its disciplines. Please note that despite not having dollamancers GK's three linked casters still managed to make the Eyebooks.

EDIT: TL;DR. Cool Items are non-special fabrications, Sweet Items are made by dollamancers, and Magic Items are made by a casters working together to churn out an item.
As someone will point it out; I do not believe simple mancers should be able to work on magic items. Like was mentioned before; maybe short-lasting bonus objects(simple mancer potions, flowerpower rations, etc.), but not magic items as they are shown above.
Also, feel free to disagree with my ideas. This was spur of the moment. But please, if you do bash em, leave an alternative proposition.

[The Colonel]

okay, my orders have been sent, which is nothing more than carry on whatever you are doing.

[0beron]

I agree with Koliup, with a few exceptions. Message Hats and Golems are things we know casters create using a single discipline, so I would classify them with the other "basic" magic items that casters can create alone.
Also now that I think about it, we know that the comic only differentiates between Magic Items and Artifacts. Magic Items aren't divided into 2 sub-categories based on their power, it's simply a matter of what magics need to go into them. So I don't think the difference between your second 2 categories should be power level, it should just be "who can make it?". Therefor I think we can use the same rules for both types of Magic Items, it just has to be a case-by-case sort of thing for the Titans to determine if what we want an item to do requires multiple caster types.

[Kaed]

Now hold on. If we're going to classify dolls and golems as magic items then that would make uncroaked and defense plants magic items too. I think we need to realize that just because the comic hasn't said something yet doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe anything that can do combat is considered a Construct.

[0beron]

Oh totally agreed, I worded my post poorly, Golems of any sort are definitely NOT "items". But they can be made by a single discipline, so they should be treated differently.

[Kaed]

I think mister monies is feeling a little daunted by my narrative complexity.

[Lord of Monies]

It's all politics. When you're working for someone else, no action is as simple as doing said action. So many layers.

[Kaed]

I'm going to make a minor ruling here that clears up few minor mechanical issues I've noticed - among the many things a capital is good for, like making portals to the Magic Kingdom, they do two things - they allow a ruler to create a template for their cities, and possibly determine what units will pop when that template is used. It also pays for the ruler's upkeep automatically, or more specifically makes it effectively 0.

This means effectively that a side without a capital, or a barbarian, CAN survive and build cities anywhere there is a site, but without a capital they have to use the the city design already in place, and their own upkeep remains an issue.

Does anyone think this is unreasonable or can think of evidence that refutes this?

[0beron]

I don't think Ruler should ever require upkeep.

[Koliup]

What if he's on the run? Rulers of fallen kingdoms should have costs equal to a warlord of the same level.

[Lord of Monies]

Well, I'm a barbarian now so I'm being treated as a warlord, not a ruler. Logically Jillian would have gone through the same circumstances else she would never need to find work. She could wander around on her own and do what fighting she could find.

I might disagree with Kaed, though. True, it is me looking out for myself, but I think if I get a city, capital site or not, then I retain my ruler status again and have 0 upkeep once more. My side is based somewhere once more, after all, so I would technically be a ruler again.

[Kaed]

Maybe right about the ruler = city, thus 0 upkeep, but I'm inclined to think that the template idea is valid. After all, Jillian rebuilt FAQ quite differently than Banhammer had it.

[0beron]

Well remember that FAQ IS a capital-site, so that explains Jillian's ability to rebuild it.
The more important consideration here from Monie's perspective is that we KNOW sides require a Capital to maintain a treasury.

[Lord of Monies]

Oh yeah, that template I agree with. Use the template you find until you can make your own. If memory serves, doesn't that also apply to the types of unit the city pops too? Considering this might be for sides that none of us account for, you prepared to do that or are we gonna conveniently ignore it (if I'm actually right on this).

[Kaed]

Oh yeah, that template I agree with. Use the template you find until you can make your own. If memory serves, doesn't that also apply to the types of unit the city pops too? Considering this might be for sides that none of us account for, you prepared to do that or are we gonna conveniently ignore it (if I'm actually right on this).

I was already planning it

And Oberon, are you sure that you need a capital to have a treasury? If so it kind of puts a nail in the coffin of the idea of Monies eventually building a city BEFORE he finds a capital site.

[0beron]

I don't know where the reference is, but yes I know this is the case. Treasury requires Capital. It's hypothesized that the warlord(s) purse could hold extra schmuckers from income, but any left over after that would be wasted.

[Kaed]

I don't know where the reference is, but yes I know this is the case. Treasury requires Capital. It's hypothesized that the warlord(s) purse could hold extra schmuckers from income, but any left over after that would be wasted.

Aha, I actually think we can work with that. His purse is his standin treasury, which means he can never have more than about 10k schmuchkers in his possession.

[Lord of Monies]

That's a purse size I can work with. First thing I do when I get a city is pop some scouts and send them on long range duty to find me a capital site.

[Kaed]

Actually... uhm... I just actually looked at the wiki. And it's a little troubling.

Canon
A purse is the personal accumulated Shmuckers associated with a warlord or caster unit. Although there are no physical coins associated with the purse, it has a limit of (Level * 1000) Shmuckers, after which the unit cannot accumulate more. They can also carry gems as physical objects, which can be converted to Shmuckers later.

Barbarian commanders pay the upkeep of any units in their stack at the start of their turn from their purse.

Which meant Daphnes was technically emptying the entire contents of his purse each turn, but thinking back on it... two things occur to me. First, he gained a couple levels pretty quickly, and second, I think the discrepancy can be fixed by saying he had 7.5k worth of gems on his person when the game started. So he now has, reconjurationally speaking, either 3 gems worth 1k each, or a full purse of 3k (being a level 3 warlord). Or some combination thereof.