Empires X.1 Rules Revision

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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GJC » Mon May 05, 2014 6:20 pm

HerbieRai wrote:Dave's going to have fun reading all the posts when he gets back online.

Reading through "ranged" I think it might be overcosted. You seem to have removed the combo of Ranged + Fly means ground melee troops cannot hurt you. If range only gives a free attack on defense it doesn't seem any stronger than flight or burrowing. The weakness to flying ranged units was the primary reason there was so much ranged.


I agree it seems overcosted now, but I never liked the ranged-flying interaction. It made sense, but it just felt like it forced that special on players. I'd say dropping its cost (and/or letting it eliminate defenders' advantage in city fights) seems fair to me.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby BrimStone » Mon May 05, 2014 6:29 pm

Yeah I thought the ranged special was expensive for non-flyers and cheap for flyers if you can be flying and ranged. I thought that in other versions it was 2 for ranged, and if it was flying the ranged was more expensive.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 6:35 pm

In the prior rules it was (2) points for ground, or (6) points for flyers to get ranged.

-

I suppose if archery is just a free attack then that might be why he eliminated a unit type for archers. I have no idea how the game is going to adjust for a missing unit type though, I imagine quite a few of us have built a good amount of archers.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby BrimStone » Mon May 05, 2014 7:14 pm

I have consolidated all questions from the posts here:

From GWvsJohn:
How do mixed stacks work in combat?

From BrimStone:
Can units take specials that push their Def value past 6 (Heavy, Healer, Frightening)?

From HerbieRai:
Can burrowers and fliers choose not to attack through the secondary zone and attack on ground anyway?
Earthshaker is overcosted (dance fighting is same benefit for less points and less restrictions)
Does sonic breath still have siege?
Should casters, heirs and rulers have the rider special? (is there a rider special anymore?)
Are burrowed units stealthed? If so then stealth is overcost (or burrow is under)
Not sure if you’re looking for additions, but some other building ideas:
Garrison House - allows more units to be garrisoned in the city
Larder - Provides X upkeep for garrison units (may be hard to keep track for a GM).
Factory - Produces X smuckers/ turn. (would want this to be low.)
Can Sour Spit be used on a unit more than once per turn (example, 3 units with sour spit against 1 unit, can they take down the defense by 6?)
What do unit templates start at: (0/0/0/0, 1/1/1/1, or 1/1/1/6)
Reading through "ranged" I think it might be overcosted. You seem to have removed the combo of Ranged + Fly means ground melee troops cannot hurt you. If range only gives a free attack on defense it doesn't seem any stronger than flight or burrowing. The weakness to flying ranged units was the primary reason there was so much ranged.

From CoverusRaven:
Can I reset an existing unit template or should I try to map to the old units as best as possible?

From SeraphRedux:
Can any specials be taken more than once?

From Deo:
Are there stabbers/pikers/archers, or are there now only 2 types of units?

From GJC:
Does this mean that commanding led units does not count against a side's command limit? If I have a stack of 10 pikers and a warlord in a hex, for example, and want to move them west?
Does the increased upkeep from heavy only apply if you buy it with smuckers, or also if you buy with points during unit creation?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Mon May 05, 2014 7:16 pm

Deo wrote:Every other unit type seemed like a straight transfer over but the loss of a unit type complicates that somewhat. Hrm


That's probably true for most cases, but I know that one of our units is transferred much better to a different slot because the rules make it much more fit out that way. I'm assuming there'll be other anomalies.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 7:18 pm

BrimStone wrote:From Deo:
Are there stabbers/pikers/archers, or are there now only 2 types of units?



Well, I know there are two Infantry unit types. My question is about the fact that it seems like a unit type was removed so only two of the three seem to be possible.

I keep thinking it is a mistake, at least if a direct conversion of current units is done, but I do not know for sure.

SeraphRedux wrote:
Deo wrote:Every other unit type seemed like a straight transfer over but the loss of a unit type complicates that somewhat. Hrm


That's probably true for most cases, but I know that one of our units is transferred much better to a different slot because the rules make it much more fit out that way. I'm assuming there'll be other anomalies.


Yeah I know. I had a home guard unit that will have to be redesigned.

-Edit-

Poor dave, already up to 25 posts.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Mon May 05, 2014 7:48 pm

I think he's combining stabber and piker into the same unit, because really, stabbers and pikers basically were the same unit.

Also can Casters, Rulers, Heirs, or Warladys sub in for this function if they are in the capital? Or let a city auto-pop units if they are in another city? Since in-comic at least warlords can go on 'courtier duty', or is this an exclusive courtier function?

Also, in your compilation post of the questions, you really should include 'walls' in Brimstone's question of 'can units get over 6 defense?' because that might be a separate matter.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby HerbieRai » Mon May 05, 2014 9:14 pm

It says in the document that defense can effectively be 12 if you are behind level 3 defenses and have 6 defense to start.

I have a lot of questions on that list. Lets add more!

Is combat simultaneous (besides the free round if defenders have range).

When and how is damage taken convert into units lost?

I think it may be better to say "The side the inflicts the most hits wins the battle", because if it's determined by casualties basic infantry become a hindrance due to how quickly they die compared to more advance units.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 9:21 pm

HerbieRai wrote:I think it may be better to say "The side the inflicts the most hits wins the battle", because if it's determined by casualties basic infantry become a hindrance due to how quickly they die compared to more advance units.


I think it is better to look at who is still standing at the end of the battle, not which side took more hits, as one side could be loaded up with higher hits units and be able to absorb those hits more effectively then the other side.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Mon May 05, 2014 9:32 pm

BrimStone wrote:I have consolidated all questions from the posts here:


Good job, that man.

From GWvsJohn:
How do mixed stacks work in combat?

Mixed in what way? Total hits, total combat, average defence. That's all I'm worried about in the calcs.

From BrimStone:
Can units take specials that push their Def value past 6 (Heavy, Healer, Frightening)?

No. 6 is a hard limit for unit design.

From HerbieRai:
Can burrowers and fliers choose not to attack through the secondary zone and attack on ground anyway?

Good question. I say "no".

Earthshaker is overcosted (dance fighting is same benefit for less points and less restrictions)

Ok. Suggest an appropriate cost.

Does sonic breath still have siege?

No.

Should casters, heirs and rulers have the rider special? (is there a rider special anymore?)

No - ignore all mention of rider - an oversight. An unnecessary complication.

Are burrowed units stealthed? If so then stealth is overcost (or burrow is under)

Not stealthed - they appear on the map, they just get an extra free attack (ambush) at the start of any combat.

Not sure if you’re looking for additions, but some other building ideas:
Garrison House - allows more units to be garrisoned in the city
Larder - Provides X upkeep for garrison units (may be hard to keep track for a GM).
Factory - Produces X smuckers/ turn. (would want this to be low.)


Good suggestions. There would have to be a limit of one per city. I'll think on it.

Can Sour Spit be used on a unit more than once per turn (example, 3 units with sour spit against 1 unit, can they take down the defense by 6?)

Um. Yes. Sure.

What do unit templates start at: (0/0/0/0, 1/1/1/1, or 1/1/1/6)

Templates start at 0/0/0/0

Reading through "ranged" I think it might be overcosted. You seem to have removed the combo of Ranged + Fly means ground melee troops cannot hurt you. If range only gives a free attack on defense it doesn't seem any stronger than flight or burrowing. The weakness to flying ranged units was the primary reason there was so much ranged.

Maybe. I'll think on that some more. What would be an appropriate cost for the "free" ranged attack for defenders?

From CoverusRaven:
Can I reset an existing unit template or should I try to map to the old units as best as possible?

Try to map across, but I'm okay with changes here and there.

From SeraphRedux:
Can any specials be taken more than once?

No. Not on the same unit.

From Deo:
Are there stabbers/pikers/archers, or are there now only 2 types of units?

Only 2 types of units. No one was taking stabbers anyway. Now you can choose if melee is A or B, ranged is A or B, or take both melee or both ranged.

From GJC:
Does this mean that commanding led units does not count against a side's command limit? If I have a stack of 10 pikers and a warlord in a hex, for example, and want to move them west?

You would still need a "command" from the ruler to move them. The Warlord there would give bonuses in combat, and allow the units to react "intelligently" - ie, choose to engage or not, etc.

Does the increased upkeep from heavy only apply if you buy it with smuckers, or also if you buy with points during unit creation?

Only if you buy it with Schmuckers.


Other questions?

Is combat simultaneous (besides the free round if defenders have range).

Yes.

When and how is damage taken convert into units lost?

As a direct percentage. If you take 40% of hits as wounds, expect to lose about 40% of the units involved.

I think it may be better to say "The side the inflicts the most hits wins the battle", because if it's determined by casualties basic infantry become a hindrance due to how quickly they die compared to more advance units.
Good point. I'll change that.

Also, in your compilation post of the questions, you really should include 'walls' in Brimstone's question of 'can units get over 6 defense?' because that might be a separate matter.

With walls, a unit can have over 6 defence. They just cannot have over 6 when designed (even with specials).
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 9:48 pm

Updated Creation document.

Erflia X.1 Unit Creation


Costs are now from 0/0/0/0.

Min requirements are already toggled in.


Remember to File > Download As... to your computer so you can use it.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon May 05, 2014 9:50 pm

My question was more like, how are hits distributed in mixed stacks? It seems like the most "efficient" use of points would be a horde of cheap, high defense troops with a few absurdly unbalanced (like 60 combat, 1 defense) special units. What happens when this stack takes hits? Do those hits chip away at the ablative horde, or would they focus fire on the heavy hitter?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 9:54 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:My question was more like, how are hits distributed in mixed stacks? It seems like the most "efficient" use of points would be a horde of cheap, high defense troops with a few absurdly unbalanced (like 60 combat, 1 defense) special units. What happens when this stack takes hits? Do those hits chip away at the ablative horde, or would they focus fire on the heavy hitter?


Or the hits could be distributed by random to the members of a stack. A stack has 16 units, and if say 48 hits smack into it, a random dispersion would have a good chance one would land on the troop and with that defense he would be hit.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon May 05, 2014 10:09 pm

Deo wrote:
GWvsJohn wrote:My question was more like, how are hits distributed in mixed stacks? It seems like the most "efficient" use of points would be a horde of cheap, high defense troops with a few absurdly unbalanced (like 60 combat, 1 defense) special units. What happens when this stack takes hits? Do those hits chip away at the ablative horde, or would they focus fire on the heavy hitter?


Or the hits could be distributed by random to the members of a stack. A stack has 16 units, and if say 48 hits smack into it, a random dispersion would have a good chance one would land on the troop and with that defense he would be hit.


But you can build a stack with 14 4 hit, defense 6 type B infantry and 2 28 hit, 58 combat type D. The odds of random distribution eliminating one of those type D is low. That stack has average defense of 5.375.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 10:18 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
Deo wrote:
GWvsJohn wrote:My question was more like, how are hits distributed in mixed stacks? It seems like the most "efficient" use of points would be a horde of cheap, high defense troops with a few absurdly unbalanced (like 60 combat, 1 defense) special units. What happens when this stack takes hits? Do those hits chip away at the ablative horde, or would they focus fire on the heavy hitter?


Or the hits could be distributed by random to the members of a stack. A stack has 16 units, and if say 48 hits smack into it, a random dispersion would have a good chance one would land on the troop and with that defense he would be hit.


But you can build a stack with 14 4 hit, defense 6 type B infantry and 2 28 hit, 58 combat type D. The odds of random distribution eliminating one of those type D is low. That stack has average defense of 5.375.



Hmm, Yeah forgot about average defense.

Perhaps a cap on combat?

Say a hard cap of 25 - 30ish?

Wait, how are you getting 28 hits and 58 combat on a Type D with only 30 points and a limit of three simple or complex specials? Do you mean a G?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon May 05, 2014 10:23 pm

Deo wrote:Hmm, Yeah forgot about average defense.

Perhaps a cap on combat?

Say a hard cap of 25 - 30ish?

Wait, how are you getting 28 hits and 58 combat on a Type D with only 30 points and a limit of three simple or complex specials? Do you mean a G?


Sorry. Yes. Old type D.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Mon May 05, 2014 10:23 pm

A couple follow up questions and comments that are hopefully relevant.

LTDave wrote:From BrimStone:
Can units take specials that push their Def value past 6 (Heavy, Healer, Frightening)?

No. 6 is a hard limit for unit design.


Does this include a unit at 6 defense being later on promoted to Heavy? Is that the one case a unit can naturally have 7 defense? Or would the unit just stay at 6?

LTDave wrote:Earthshaker is overcosted (dance fighting is same benefit for less points and less restrictions)

Ok. Suggest an appropriate cost.


Technically not 100% an issue because a unit can have both and it'd be effective, but if you wanted to make it unique, it could offer a high bonus to combat, but only against Burrowing units. You could even make a complimentary special for bonus to damage against Flying units.

LTDave wrote:Reading through "ranged" I think it might be overcosted. You seem to have removed the combo of Ranged + Fly means ground melee troops cannot hurt you. If range only gives a free attack on defense it doesn't seem any stronger than flight or burrowing. The weakness to flying ranged units was the primary reason there was so much ranged.

Maybe. I'll think on that some more. What would be an appropriate cost for the "free" ranged attack for defenders?


I think a free ranged attack for defenders should be about 2 points, if Burrow is anything to go by. (Ranged is no longer necessary to hit flying units, right?)
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 10:28 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
Deo wrote:Hmm, Yeah forgot about average defense.

Perhaps a cap on combat?

Say a hard cap of 25 - 30ish?

Wait, how are you getting 28 hits and 58 combat on a Type D with only 30 points and a limit of three simple or complex specials? Do you mean a G?


Sorry. Yes. Old type D.



Well the unit is far more costly and after a few rounds those defenders might be quickly butchered, lowering the average defense if it is calculated each round. Still does seem rather powerful though. Hrm
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 10:31 pm

SeraphRedux wrote:A couple follow up questions and comments that are hopefully relevant.


LTDave wrote:Earthshaker is overcosted (dance fighting is same benefit for less points and less restrictions)

Ok. Suggest an appropriate cost.



LTDave wrote:Reading through "ranged" I think it might be overcosted. You seem to have removed the combo of Ranged + Fly means ground melee troops cannot hurt you. If range only gives a free attack on defense it doesn't seem any stronger than flight or burrowing. The weakness to flying ranged units was the primary reason there was so much ranged.

Maybe. I'll think on that some more. What would be an appropriate cost for the "free" ranged attack for defenders?


I think a free ranged attack for defenders should be about 2 points, if Burrow is anything to go by. (Ranged is no longer necessary to hit flying units, right?)


Earthshaker could be used as a similar version to ranged. Allow a first hit upon a burrowing unit before they get to attack, and allow attacking ground units if detected. Ranged could act the same way, but orientated against flying units.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby HerbieRai » Mon May 05, 2014 10:32 pm

According to the rules casualties aren't actually taken during combat, but its done with percentages. So if your stack has an attack of 100, 100 hits, and an average of 5.5 defense. In the first round you take 30 hits, your combat goes down by 30. From a game perspective units don't croak until after combat, which was one of the reasons I was asking about changing it to "inflicted the most hits", since casualties aren't actually taken during combat. Dave - do you have a calculation on which units die, or are you picking randomly?

Edit - I would be cool if you could lean the percentage so lightly defended units are more likely to die.

Earthshaker should probably be 3 points. It could possibly be 2 since it has the "cannot be taken by fliers" restriction, but I think 3 is a good cost. (you seem to be going on a 1 custom point = +2 combat for specials that increase combat.)

I think range costing 2 still works well, especially with the flyer debuff.

Another Idea (ignore if you don't like)
Frightening (3 points) - In combat, one target unit gets -5 attack for the rest of the turn.
Healer(4 points) - Prevent 1 casualty in hex per turn. Can only be used if they win the combat (or the winning side allows it).

Both would probably need to become complex if you like them.
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