Empires X.1 Rules Revision

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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Silversought » Mon May 05, 2014 10:36 pm

Thought for Earthshaker: (Not that I don't like the "hit burrower idea") Drop cost to 2 or 3, add Siege prereq?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Mon May 05, 2014 10:44 pm

HerbieRai wrote:Another Idea (ignore if you don't like)
Frightening (3 points) - In combat, one target unit gets -5 attack for the rest of the turn.
Healer(4 points) - Prevent 1 casualty in hex per turn. Can only be used if they win the combat (or the winning side allows it).

Both would probably need to become complex if you like them.


Might be better if Frightening reduced a stacks combat.

I am good with that Healer but it might be better if it was percentage based on how many people might live in a stack and/or It might also be worth having it more chance based. (25% chance to save a incapacitated unit) and not allowing it to stack with another units healing.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 12:07 am

My goal in all of this is to make things as smiple for the GM as possible.

Having units with special abilities that do this or that is a pain in the derrierre.

All it does is make more places for the GM to make errors and upset players by forgetting something.

But keep those suggestions coming.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue May 06, 2014 12:31 am

I had an idea and I actually quite like it.

Why don't you (with ample help) create a bank of like 100 units that are flavorful and balanced. Then when someone makes a side they can pick their units from the bank rather than create their own. This eliminates the min/maxing that we all can't help doing and doesn't penalize people (as much) for taking fun units.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 12:48 am

I think it'd be possible to have a huge bank of sample units, but A, they'd need to all be constantly updated with every iteration of the rules, and B, it'd cut out a ton of flavor and stuff people can make for their side if that was 'enforced'. And if it isn't enforced, people might not choose it that often. Fantastic for npcs though.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue May 06, 2014 12:53 am

But I don't think we're going to get flavor. We're going to get a dozen different versions of defense 6 and burrowing.

The bank wouldn't need to be "flavor" specific. You could make a profile for Twoll. Then let's say a side wants a big, tough heavy unit. But they don't want Twolls. They want Yetis. No problem. Take the Twoll profile, add some white fur and, boom, Yeti.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 1:00 am

I don't think that it'll be as easy to do as you suggest, to create a single optimal unit. Defense 6 and burrowing isn't feasible for most of the units under F rank, least without sacrificing most attack. Without serious damage, burrowing isn't going to help too much.

If we make a bank of 100 units, we'll just get the same 1 or 2 picked for every side of each grade, as the clearly superior choice. As a note, I'm all for making a bank of units, I'm just opposed to mandating that players have to choose those in the bank, and worried about the problems with necessary updates to it.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue May 06, 2014 1:15 am

That's why I would make an effort to include a variety of generally agreed upon balanced units. Try to avoid making 1 or 2 superior units.

I didn't mean defense 6 and burrowing on the same unit. And I didn't mean literally defense 6. But now that we know how combat works, are we ever going to see a defense 1 or 2 stack?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 1:24 am

Just because we think the units are balanced doesn't mean they are. And if we have to police these units, we could just police the rules in the first place.

And I agree about the "will we ever see a defense 1 or two stack?" But I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Can you come up with a system of balanced units against each other where anybody will willingly take on a 1-2 defense stack? I don't think this is exclusive to the player generation system.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 1:43 am

I thing def 1 or 2 units are totally viable - as garrison archers.

I also think def 6 units aren't worth the extra points. 6 points to take the chance of being bit from 20% to just under 17%?
Not likely. I think def 3 or 4 is more efficient.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 2:04 am

Deo wrote:Updated Creation document.

Erflia X.1 Unit Creation


Costs are now from 0/0/0/0.

Min requirements are already toggled in.


Remember to File > Download As... to your computer so you can use it.


Spotted a slight error in def costs. Def 2 should cost 3, etc.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Deo » Tue May 06, 2014 2:31 am

LTDave wrote:
Deo wrote:Updated Creation document.

Erflia X.1 Unit Creation


Costs are now from 0/0/0/0.

Min requirements are already toggled in.


Remember to File > Download As... to your computer so you can use it.


Spotted a slight error in def costs. Def 2 should cost 3, etc.


Whoops. Fixed

I agree that people might be focusing a bit too much on defense, and that's from a guy who was all about defense before it was cool. 8-)
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 3:30 am

LTDave wrote:From HerbieRai:
Can burrowers and fliers choose not to attack through the secondary zone and attack on ground anyway?

Good question. I say "no".


I actually have a minor question about that. Does this mean that you 'have' to have all of your units attacking from the same venue? Aka, not allowed to mix burrowing units with normal units, or normal units with flying units? I ask because I wonder, does this essentially mean I'm not allowed to stack my warlord with my wolves?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby LTDave » Tue May 06, 2014 7:12 pm

I'm still having some thoughts. It looks as though "extra tough" is going to be a default for every single unit, since it is the most cost effective.

What if - and this is a crazy thought - every single special was a "once per side" choice? Or maybe a "twice per side" choice?


The exception would be ranged, which I am thinking of changing to cost 1 for A or B (but you can't take it for both), cost 2 for C, D, & E, and cost 3 for F & G.

Thoughts?


I'm also keen on thoughts for other parts of the rules beside unit creation - particularly the "Commands" section.
I suppose Warlords can act as Courtiers as Governors. Should they also be part of the Court? Or would that be too confusing?

And a minor change on the scouting - how about the revealed area must be contiguous with already revealed areas - as in, the central hex can be up to two hexes away from already revealed terrain?

Comments? Suggestions?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby Silversought » Tue May 06, 2014 7:20 pm

Yeah, it's inevitable when Specials actually flat out increase the point value of a unit. I like your solution.

I think all Characters should be able to contribute to the Court, City Management, etc. Courtiers make up for their limited ability by being cheaper, and Casters account for their increased utility in cities by being more expensive.

The Ranged fix seems reasonable.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 7:30 pm

We have our side laid out for the most part with the converted units, though can't pm/post them yet because we still need to wait for verdict on stuff like "twice per side", "Ranged Cost", and "Effect of Extra Tough" to be sure.
Here's a few comments for you, and a question at the very bottom (also a question in my last post, which I should have said needed Dave to answer specifically).

LTDave wrote:I'm still having some thoughts. It looks as though "extra tough" is going to be a default for every single unit, since it is the most cost effective.

What if - and this is a crazy thought - every single special was a "once per side" choice? Or maybe a "twice per side" choice?


I think personally a twice or three times per side on the majority of specials wouldn't be entirely out of hand, though definitely not once. It'd be really tricky and dicey to divvy it up that way, and it'd be more paperwork and double checking than anything else.

I think if your issue is Extra Tough specially, I have two general suggestions.
Extra Tough (3): Gain +6 HP
To put it in line with the other specials. Alternatively.
Extra Tough (4): Gain +6 HP. The Bonus this unit gets from the Heavy trait increases to +7/3/1.



LTDave wrote:The exception would be ranged, which I am thinking of changing to cost 1 for A or B (but you can't take it for both), cost 2 for C, D, & E, and cost 3 for F & G.

Thoughts?


I'm generally in favor of this one, sounds nice.


LTDave wrote:I'm also keen on thoughts for other parts of the rules beside unit creation - particularly the "Commands" section.
I suppose Warlords can act as Courtiers as Governors. Should they also be part of the Court? Or would that be too confusing?


Well, you could simply say "Characters" can do the governors, and "Characters" can be a part of the court. Banhammer had a 'court' of almost all casters, after all. Also really simple to avoid confusion. If it's a character, it counts.

LTDave wrote:And a minor change on the scouting - how about the revealed area must be contiguous with already revealed areas - as in, the central hex can be up to two hexes away from already revealed terrain?


Would it still need to be within 6 hexes of a controlled unit or city? Also, I assume because of the function of the side nature, that scouts just poof at the end of turn and are never part of the map, right?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby BrimStone » Tue May 06, 2014 8:39 pm

One other suggestion on duplicate abilities (I took extra tough on everyone) is that for each unit that takes a special the next unit to take it has to pay 1 more point to take the same special?

The ones I see being taken a lot are:
Extra Tough (4 free points)
Dance Fighting (3 free points)
Complex Speed Boost (3 free points)
Heavy (4-10 free points depending on what the def value it has is)
Sour Spit (negates 11 points of opponent character design against a def 6 unit for 4 point cost)

Footbiter and battlecrap are each 4 free points, but you have to have bought a 2 cost skill to get them.

I like the ranged idea with the cost per category of unit

I sent my specs in but the answers to these design questions will change what I do.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue May 06, 2014 8:54 pm

I think making most specials one per side is a really good idea. Maybe take some of the specials we know are common like ranged, fly, siege, and make them a new category, Common, that can be taken multiple times?
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby SeraphRedux » Tue May 06, 2014 8:58 pm

Heavy has an actual downside, and can be promoted to with smuckers in any case. The rest there is a point to that, though.

We could just make a rule that states that people can trade away specials for +3 points to their design, and then balance that. Either come up with newer more inventive ideas for stuff like dancefighting and toxin, or remove them as they're effectively +points to design anyway (I'd recommend not touching the G class only specials for this, as those are unique cases).

Also, I strongly dislike having most specials only once per side, but I'm quite for 2 per side with a few listed as 'common'. I like the idea, I just feel like reducing it to 1 is going too far with it. 1 per side is extremely restrictive in multiple ways with theme, and if we're pushing most of the 'common' stuff into the can be taken multiple times, it might be better just to have a trade-away mechanic of specials directly to points.
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Re: Empires X.1 Rules Revision

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue May 06, 2014 9:40 pm

SeraphRedux wrote:Heavy has an actual downside, and can be promoted to with smuckers in any case. The rest there is a point to that, though.

We could just make a rule that states that people can trade away specials for +3 points to their design, and then balance that. Either come up with newer more inventive ideas for stuff like dancefighting and toxin, or remove them as they're effectively +points to design anyway (I'd recommend not touching the G class only specials for this, as those are unique cases).

Also, I strongly dislike having most specials only once per side, but I'm quite for 2 per side with a few listed as 'common'. I like the idea, I just feel like reducing it to 1 is going too far with it. 1 per side is extremely restrictive in multiple ways with theme, and if we're pushing most of the 'common' stuff into the can be taken multiple times, it might be better just to have a trade-away mechanic of specials directly to points.


Personally I prefer variety. Most of the sides we've seen have had pretty varied special units.

Twolls, Dwagons and Spidews for GK
Unikegataurs, Sourmanders and Gumps for Jetstone
Goyles, Doombats and the Birds for Transylvito
Etc.
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